DEEP SYNAPZE

[BrendanJNorman]

Again, a very good post, which tries to address fairly and in an unbiased manner, different viewpoints .

Thanks, this was my intention.

Don't worry about it, you have to read between the lines.

I don't know how I got on the wrong side of Guenther Simon, but his words to me "Well, now we know where you stand, but I had no doubt of it before... " reveal that his perspective was unfortunately formed from confirmation bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias), so there is no need to read anything carefully.

There is no need to ask if anything I said is fair, or true or reasonable.

Confirmation bias means "look for what you want to see, find evidence (whether real or imagined) and wrap it around your preferred narrative"

To be clear...

I do not excuse, nor tolerate stealing code (or anything) and anybody doing so (especially without making improvements as in the case with Vitruvius) and, basically placing their name on unchanged code is a fool.

My assertion was that this is not a basis for making moral judgements on the engine USER.

If a chess enthusiastic wants to try out Synapze or even a ridiculous clone like Ultron, it's up to them and not dishonest (or "supporting" dishonesty in any way.)

If somebody stole my computer (which I use to make a living), I'd be pretty silly to blame anybody for the theft, but the thief.

I don't think my assertion was ambiguous in any way.

[Dann Corbit]

Blaming the victim. If someone steals something because the author or owner did not protect it well enough, the thief is still a thief and the victim is still a victim.

When someone has a history of dubious behavior, it shows a character flaw.

There seems to be a strange moral climate where lots of people think it is OK to do things like steal and lie.

I don't understand it, quite frankly.

[BrendanJNorman]

Blaming the victim. If someone steals something because the author or owner did not protect it well enough, the thief is still a thief and the victim is still a victim.

When someone has a history of dubious behavior, it shows a character flaw.

There seems to be a strange moral climate where lots of people think it is OK to do things like steal and lie.

I don't understand it, quite frankly.

Hey Dann,

I don't understand.

Please show me where I gave the impression that I was blaming programmers for having their work stolen.

My friend, I believe you misunderstood me and made somewhat of a false deduction here.

I said that it's the "programmers problem to solve", yet did not discount the fact that the code thief themself is to blame and is a morally bankrupt fool.

Also, please do not place me in a group in saying "lots of people" think it is okay to steal and lie.

Do you mean that I think it is okay to lie and steal? And if so, what gave you that impression (please give the exact quote).

And who are you referring to with "history of dubious behavior"?

Please be clear.

Veiled insults are still insults, no matter how vague.

The only perspective of mine that can really be attacked (leave that poor straw man alone) is that the programming community need to come up with a solution to protect their work and, that engine users have nothing to do with this.

Think of it this way...

Just because I acknowledge that the theif is wrong and I am the victim, should I refuse to lock my door at night because that's "blaming the victim"?

Doesn't make sense, right? - But this is the deduction you seem to have made from my post.

[Adam Hair]

Again, a very good post, which tries to address fairly and in an unbiased manner, different viewpoints .

Thanks, this was my intention.

Don't worry about it, you have to read between the lines.

I don't know how I got on the wrong side of Guenther Simon, but his words to me "Well, now we know where you stand, but I had no doubt of it before... " reveal that his perspective was unfortunately formed from confirmation bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias), so there is no need to read anything carefully.

There is no need to ask if anything I said is fair, or true or reasonable.

Confirmation bias means "look for what you want to see, find evidence (whether real or imagined) and wrap it around your preferred narrative"

To be clear...

I do not excuse, nor tolerate stealing code (or anything) and anybody doing so (especially without making improvements as in the case with Vitruvius) and, basically placing their name on unchanged code is a fool.

My assertion was that this is not a basis for making moral judgements on the engine USER.

If a chess enthusiastic wants to try out Synapze or even a ridiculous clone like Ultron, it's up to them and not dishonest (or "supporting" dishonesty in any way.)

If somebody stole my computer (which I use to make a living), I'd be pretty silly to blame anybody for the theft, but the thief.

I don't think my assertion was ambiguous in any way.

Guenther's response to you is probably related to a post you made about Fire 5.

There more than one type of user in CCC. The viewpoint that you have been espousing in this thread is of the USER: a person who does not really give a damn about the computer chess community and whose only concern is what he/she can take from it. I am not claiming that this describes you, but you are claiming there is justification for this point of view.

If you knowingly receive stolen goods, does that not make a statement about your moral character?
If you choose to ignore signs that something may have been stolen, does that make receiving the item okay?

[BrendanJNorman]

a person who does not really give a damn about the computer chess community and whose only concern is what he/she can take from it. I am not claiming that this describes you, but you are claiming there is justification for this point of view.

If you knowingly receive stolen goods, does that not make a statement about your moral character?
If you choose to ignore signs that something may have been stolen, does that make receiving the item okay?

Adam,

Most people who use chess engines (chess players, not "computer chess enthusiasts" per say) have no idea that there is such a "computer chess community", so I think it's false and unfair to claim that they do not give a damn about something they're ignorant of.

Most of them use Stockfish and then perhaps a friend says "get Strelka (or whatever)" and they google it, find Chess Owl or some other site and download it. They have no idea of the background information.

Even I (who have used engines since around 1999) had no idea until I registered on this forum and felt the intensely hostile response, even for innocent questions.

It is very easy to buy/download an engine without being a member of talkchess, or keeping up to date with witchhunts for the latest suspected clone.

I got some idea a couple years ago when I downloaded an engine from Ed's site and was redirected to a page talking about Rybka being unfairly accused - would this mean that Ed doesn't give a damn about the community he gave his life to?

Probably not, he probably was more interested in fairness which is basically the position I was pushing as well.

I'm beginning to get the impression (and sad disappointment) that the "computer chess community" is a very unfriendly, cold place, where chessplayers curious about engines need to walk on eggshells to avoid abuse or negativity.

I'll think I'll have to opt out of this site in future. Enjoy your time fellas.

[velmarin]

Three light tests on the behavior of this engine.

A little aggressive, test with the SIM3 tool:

Code: Select all

sim version 3
------ Deep Synapse RZ6.5 64bit  (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0) ------
 59.41  Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 55.89  Deep Synapse RZ4.8 64bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 50.71  Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 47.69  komodo 9.2 64-bit  (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)

Second test on the Nalimov option, it is only adornment, it does not work, it does not use the Nalimov tablebases,
Tablebases SYZYGY, yes, it was to be expected.

Third test, we create another engine in tactical mode, we put the two to analyze, tactical and normal about the Arasan suite, all the positions give an identical exit, it seems another adornment.

[Amateur]

adornments or not, this engine was compiled in date 2016-10-26 17:54:12 (three months ago), just scan it in virustotal, and is stronger today than any engine, including Stockfish ...

P.S.
The latest version: deep synapseRZ7, which is already present into Playchess and in some sites, is even about 30 elo stronger of this version. In total about 50 elo stronger then Stockfish 8!

[shrapnel]

a person who does not really give a damn about the computer chess community and whose only concern is what he/she can take from it. I am not claiming that this describes you, but you are claiming there is justification for this point of view.

If you knowingly receive stolen goods, does that not make a statement about your moral character?
If you choose to ignore signs that something may have been stolen, does that make receiving the item okay?

Adam,

Most people who use chess engines (chess players, not "computer chess enthusiasts" per say) have no idea that there is such a "computer chess community", so I think it's false and unfair to claim that they do not give a damn about something they're ignorant of.

Most of them use Stockfish and then perhaps a friend says "get Strelka (or whatever)" and they google it, find Chess Owl or some other site and download it. They have no idea of the background information.

Even I (who have used engines since around 1999) had no idea until I registered on this forum and felt the intensely hostile response, even for innocent questions.

It is very easy to buy/download an engine without being a member of talkchess, or keeping up to date with witchhunts for the latest suspected clone.

I got some idea a couple years ago when I downloaded an engine from Ed's site and was redirected to a page talking about Rybka being unfairly accused - would this mean that Ed doesn't give a damn about the community he gave his life to?

Probably not, he probably was more interested in fairness which is basically the position I was pushing as well.

I'm beginning to get the impression (and sad disappointment) that the "computer chess community" is a very unfriendly, cold place, where chessplayers curious about engines need to walk on eggshells to avoid abuse or negativity.

I'll think I'll have to opt out of this site in future. Enjoy your time fellas.

Please don't go away, Norman, your Posts are very good and enlightening.
Mostly a bunch of narrow-minded Bigots here, who are unable to appreciate any viewpoint which is even slightly different from their own. In fact, I sometimes wonder how some of these guys get along with people in their real lives (if any ! ).
This site seems to be only for chess programmers and I'm not one. Only my fascination for computer chess (just a Hobby) brings me back sometimes, to this site of cold, unfriendly people.

[Amateur]

Three light tests on the behavior of this engine.

A little aggressive, test with the SIM3 tool:

Code: Select all

sim version 3
------ Deep Synapse RZ6.5 64bit  (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0) ------
 59.41  Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 55.89  Deep Synapse RZ4.8 64bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 50.71  Houdini 5.01 Pro x64-popc (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 47.69  komodo 9.2 64-bit  (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)

Second test on the Nalimov option, it is only adornment, it does not work, it does not use the Nalimov tablebases,
Tablebases SYZYGY, yes, it was to be expected.

Third test, we create another engine in tactical mode, we put the two to analyze, tactical and normal about the Arasan suite, all the positions give an identical exit, it seems another adornment.

you just finished shouting gibberish accusing Fire 5 to be a Stockfish's clone and start again already? Instead of seeing clones of Stockfish anywhere, you should think of the clones that you did!

P.S.
sim test is unreliable. For example Hypnos that is a clone or derivative of stockfish shows similarity values, in sim test, as if it were the original! Why?

[Amateur]

There are hundreds of clones around, but why tempers are heated only versus Synapse? the answer is that Synapse is stronger than any engine which is accused of clone! with this policy YOU HAVE obscured one of the few able to decompile Komodo, Houdini and others closed sources. Check whether the versions of Synapse has been compiled on the same dates as the original (including komodo) of which he is accused of being a simple clone. The Synapse RZ6 version is compiled IN DATE 2016-06-13 19:36:52 is stronger than Stockfish 8! These are the hard evidence does ,not words THROW to the wind!