DEEP SYNAPZE

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
corres
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:41 am
Location: hungary

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by corres » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:08 pm

[quote="mjlef"]
...The people behind Synapse are simply thieves who steal other programs and do things like put a simple UCI wrapper around them. This just slows the program down a little and makes it inferior to the original.
[/quote]

It is obvious that Synapse is a modified Stockfish. But the modifications are much more then making a UCI wrapper around Stockfish. The maker of Synapse modified at least the search of Stockfish and the UCI related files. Moreover its .exe is obfuscated. The author of Synapse is a "thief" in the sense of that he do not give credit to the original authors of Stockfish and he ignores the license of GNU. I think Synapse with a legal opened source should be a simple derivative of Stockfish.
Owing to the modifications of search Synapse might be stronger then Stockfish in the condition of LTC.

User avatar
hgm
Posts: 23772
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller
Contact:

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by hgm » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:33 pm

corres wrote:The author of Synapse is a "thief" in the sense of that ... he ignores the license of GNU.
So that would be in the 'legal sense', which could get you convicted in court, and heavily fined or sent to prison...

User avatar
Guenther
Posts: 3098
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:33 am
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Full name: Guenther Simon
Contact:

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by Guenther » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:37 pm

corres wrote:
mjlef wrote: ...The people behind Synapse are simply thieves who steal other programs and do things like put a simple UCI wrapper around them. This just slows the program down a little and makes it inferior to the original.
It is obvious that Synapse is a modified Stockfish. But the modifications are much more then making a UCI wrapper around Stockfish. The maker of Synapse modified at least the search of Stockfish and the UCI related files. Moreover its .exe is obfuscated. The author of Synapse is a "thief" in the sense of that he do not give credit to the original authors of Stockfish and he ignores the license of GNU. I think Synapse with a legal opened source should be a simple derivative of Stockfish.
Owing to the modifications of search Synapse might be stronger then Stockfish in the condition of LTC.

No, the 'modifications' are still very tiny...

Code: Select all

1r1r2k1/2q1ppbp/p1p1bnp1/n2p4/P1P5/BPN3PP/2QNPPBK/1R3R2 w - - 0 1

Code: Select all

DeepSynapse_RZ65 *Null Move Pruning = true* (set to false! by the UCI wrapper)
  
 10	 -1.03 	54658  	0:00.06	Kh1 dxc4 bxc4 Qd7 Rxb8 Rxb8 Kg1 Bxh3 Bxh3 Qxh3 Bxe7
  9	 -1.56 	15631  	0:00.02	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 a5 h6 f4 Nd5 Na4 c3
  8	 -0.40 	7001    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 a5 bxa5 Rxb1 Rxb1
  7	 -1.46 	4957    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 h6 a5
  6	 -1.18 	3229    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 h6
  5	 -1.30 	2679    	0:00.00	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4
  4	 -0.35 	807      	0:00.00	e4 dxe4 Ndxe4 Nxe4
  3	 -0.66 	493      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5 e3
  2	 -0.87 	403      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5
  1	 -0.87 	270      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5
  0	#
  
AsmFish_2017-01-07-base

 10	 -1.03 	54622  	0:00.06	Kh1 dxc4 bxc4 Qd7 Rxb8 Rxb8 Kg1 Bxh3 Bxh3 Qxh3 Bxe7
  9	 -1.56 	15632  	0:00.02	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 a5 h6 f4 Nd5 Na4 c3
  8	 -0.40 	7001    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 a5 bxa5 Rxb1 Rxb1
  7	 -1.46 	4957    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 h6 a5
  6	 -1.18 	3229    	0:00.00	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 h6
  5	 -1.30 	2679    	0:00.00	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4
  4	 -0.35 	807      	0:00.00	e4 dxe4 Ndxe4 Nxe4
  3	 -0.66 	493      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5 e3
  2	 -0.87 	403      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5
  1	 -0.87 	270      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5
  0	#

AsmFish_2017-01-09-base

 10	 -1.03 	54622  	0:00.07	Kh1 dxc4 bxc4 Qd7 Rxb8 Rxb8 Kg1 Bxh3 Bxh3 Qxh3 Bxe7
  9	 -1.56 	15632  	0:00.02	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 a5 h6 f4 Nd5 Na4 c3
  8	 -0.40 	7001    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 a5 bxa5 Rxb1 Rxb1
  7	 -1.46 	4957    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 h6 a5
  6	 -1.18 	3229    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 h6
  5	 -1.30 	2679    	0:00.00	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4
  4	 -0.35 	807      	0:00.00	e4 dxe4 Ndxe4 Nxe4
  3	 -0.66 	493      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5 e3
  2	 -0.87 	403      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5
  1	 -0.87 	270      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5
  0	#


AsmFish_2017-01-14-base

 10	 -1.03 	54622  	0:00.06	Kh1 dxc4 bxc4 Qd7 Rxb8 Rxb8 Kg1 Bxh3 Bxh3 Qxh3 Bxe7
  9	 -1.56 	15632  	0:00.02	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 a5 h6 f4 Nd5 Na4 c3
  8	 -0.40 	7001    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 a5 bxa5 Rxb1 Rxb1
  7	 -1.46 	4957    	0:00.01	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 h6 a5
  6	 -1.18 	3229    	0:00.00	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4 h6
  5	 -1.30 	2679    	0:00.00	b4 Nxc4 Nxc4 dxc4 e4
  4	 -0.35 	807      	0:00.00	e4 dxe4 Ndxe4 Nxe4
  3	 -0.66 	493      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5 e3
  2	 -0.87 	403      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5
  1	 -0.87 	270      	0:00.00	cxd5 cxd5
  0	#

User avatar
velmarin
Posts: 1600
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:48 am

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by velmarin » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:51 pm

Guenther wrote: No, the 'modifications' are still very tiny...
Do not think small.
Support Nalimov (with permission from Eugene, hehe) is no small thing, even if he does nothing.
Tactical mode with the surprising virtue of "also do nothing".

ect, ect.... :lol: :twisted:

Dann Corbit
Posts: 10182
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:51 pm

velmarin wrote:
Guenther wrote: No, the 'modifications' are still very tiny...
Do not think small.
Support Nalimov (with permission from Eugene, hehe) is no small thing, even if he does nothing.
Tactical mode with the surprising virtue of "also do nothing".

ect, ect.... :lol: :twisted:
I guess that he does not have permission for the Nalimov files too.

These Deep Synapse people are probably cousins of the Mr Dull Propeller.
It sure would be nice if they got prosecuted, since they tried to sell it.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Scacchista1977
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:40 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by Scacchista1977 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:20 pm

I think there is no only one "Torres" author of Synapze and no Synapze team but only someone trying to make fun of everyone and to make money. Many are "Torres" that run on the network, and many require money for Stockfish clones. Now I give an example: a certain Mohamed Nayeem asked for money for this engine clone: https://github.com/MohamedNayeem/Nayeem and continues to give every commercial engine on His website if you subscribe to "paying" the vip status. . ...
then there are other ways to make money on the backs of chessfans, as this gentleman: https://github.com/JoselitoPimPamFuego/Symphysodon
he asked me for money in His old website for a copy of Synapse 4.8 ..... he said, at reduced price !!! .... I forgot, both gentlemen above now ask money in own sites for clones opening books.... , then the saying “a leopard cannot change its spots” is still valid today!
Sorry for my bad english!

BrendanJNorman
Posts: 1475
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:43 pm
Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by BrendanJNorman » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:28 pm

Scacchista1977 wrote:I think there is no only one "Torres" author of Synapze and no Synapze team but only someone trying to make fun of everyone and to make money. Many are "Torres" that run on the network, and many require money for Stockfish clones. Now I give an example: a certain Mohamed Nayeem asked for money for this engine clone: https://github.com/MohamedNayeem/Nayeem and continues to give every commercial engine on His website if you subscribe to "paying" the vip status. . ...
then there are other ways to make money on the backs of chessfans, as this gentleman: https://github.com/JoselitoPimPamFuego/Symphysodon
he asked me for money in His old website for a copy of Synapse 4.8 ..... he said, at reduced price !!! .... I forgot, both gentlemen above now ask money in own sites for clones opening books.... , then the saying “a leopard cannot change its spots” is still valid today!
Sorry for my bad english!
See, this Mohamed guy is a scumbag and a criminal.

He has download links on the linked site to Houdini 5, Komodo 10.3 and other new engines.

Some of you guys truly have your guns pointed in the wrong direction.

mjlef
Posts: 1427
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by mjlef » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:47 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Adam Hair wrote:a person who does not really give a damn about the computer chess community and whose only concern is what he/she can take from it. I am not claiming that this describes you, but you are claiming there is justification for this point of view.

If you knowingly receive stolen goods, does that not make a statement about your moral character?
If you choose to ignore signs that something may have been stolen, does that make receiving the item okay?
Adam,

Most people who use chess engines (chess players, not "computer chess enthusiasts" per say) have no idea that there is such a "computer chess community", so I think it's false and unfair to claim that they do not give a damn about something they're ignorant of.

Most of them use Stockfish and then perhaps a friend says "get Strelka (or whatever)" and they google it, find Chess Owl or some other site and download it. They have no idea of the background information.

Even I (who have used engines since around 1999) had no idea until I registered on this forum and felt the intensely hostile response, even for innocent questions.

It is very easy to buy/download an engine without being a member of talkchess, or keeping up to date with witchhunts for the latest suspected clone.

I got some idea a couple years ago when I downloaded an engine from Ed's site and was redirected to a page talking about Rybka being unfairly accused - would this mean that Ed doesn't give a damn about the community he gave his life to?

Probably not, he probably was more interested in fairness which is basically the position I was pushing as well.

I'm beginning to get the impression (and sad disappointment) that the "computer chess community" is a very unfriendly, cold place, where chessplayers curious about engines need to walk on eggshells to avoid abuse or negativity.

I'll think I'll have to opt out of this site in future. Enjoy your time fellas.
I would encourage you to participate more here, not less. You are right that some chess engine users are completely unaware a given engine might be stolen from someone else. Many would not be able to judge what is original and what is not, so they would depend on experts here to clarify the issue for them. Try not to take what people write here as any kind of an attack. This is mostly an educational site to teach people new things.

So saying that, it is simply wrong to take something someone else owns the copyright on without permission. It is not legal to copy a whole book and give it to someone else. You are depriving that author of royalties when you do. And when it becomes rampant, authors will just give up and stop producing.

Do I blame an end user who uses an engine but does not know it is stolen? No I do not. But I am a bit skeptical if they make no attempt at all to see what it is. And somehow, once many of the people learn here a given program is stolen, they keep using it anyway. To me that crosses a line.

I will go back to a book example. Say a friend copies a book, and hands you the copy, claiming he wrote it himself. Would you believe that if you friend had never expressed an interest in writing a book ever before? So why would someone believe a person who claims to have written a chess engine and it is suddenly one of the strongest in the world? All legitimate engines I have ever seen have taken many years to develop, step by step with rating increases over a long period. To spring up "out of nowhere" and be on the top has to be something that most people should be suspicious of.

BrendanJNorman
Posts: 1475
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:43 pm
Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by BrendanJNorman » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:18 am

mjlef wrote:I would encourage you to participate more here, not less. You are right that some chess engine users are completely unaware a given engine might be stolen from someone else. Many would not be able to judge what is original and what is not, so they would depend on experts here to clarify the issue for them. Try not to take what people write here as any kind of an attack. This is mostly an educational site to teach people new things.

So saying that, it is simply wrong to take something someone else owns the copyright on without permission. It is not legal to copy a whole book and give it to someone else. You are depriving that author of royalties when you do. And when it becomes rampant, authors will just give up and stop producing.

Do I blame an end user who uses an engine but does not know it is stolen? No I do not. But I am a bit skeptical if they make no attempt at all to see what it is. And somehow, once many of the people learn here a given program is stolen, they keep using it anyway. To me that crosses a line.

I will go back to a book example. Say a friend copies a book, and hands you the copy, claiming he wrote it himself. Would you believe that if you friend had never expressed an interest in writing a book ever before? So why would someone believe a person who claims to have written a chess engine and it is suddenly one of the strongest in the world? All legitimate engines I have ever seen have taken many years to develop, step by step with rating increases over a long period. To spring up "out of nowhere" and be on the top has to be something that most people should be suspicious of.
Look Mark, to me it's now like this:

1. You said "Do I blame an end user who uses an engine but does not know it is stolen? No I do not. But I am a bit skeptical if they make no attempt at all to see what it is."

This is because you are not a tournament chess player. You're a computer chess guy. You evidently aren't able to view things from the position of another.

In my teens I used Fritz, Junior, Hiarcs, Shredder and other engines and, all that I knew was that "Fritz is tactical, Junior is speculative, Hiarcs is human-like, Shredder is strategic". As a chess player, this is the only information I needed and all that I'd ever bother to know about "what it is".

I know hundreds of chess players who are the same. Why would a carpenter study the origins of his hammer? So whether you're skeptical or not doesn't matter, it is what it is.

2. If they did (what whatever reason) go digging, in the CCRL list alone, the authors of Critter, Gull, Fire, Rybka/Fritz 15 and even Houdini (plus many more) have all been called "thieves" at one time or another. I could find you 100 threads to prove this, but you know it's true.

This hypothetical chess player finding out what's "in" say Houdini, for example, might get quite a poor impression of the chess programming community, as I now have.

In conclusion:

With the exception of a few wonderful people, I've now all but lost respect for this "community" and have absolutely no interest in engaging with these people.

The fact that I can be accused of being a thief and insulted frequently on this forum for sincere (although sometimes controversial in the eyes of long-timers) questions, reflects on the quality of the people here.

The fact that after the author of one of the commercial engines I purchased had to come on this site and say "For the record, Brendan is a registered owner of Houdini 5", my accusers instead of retracting their abuse (or god forbid, giving an apology) dissapeared back into their hole, waiting to reemerge, guerrilla warfare style for round 2 - reflects a lot on this "community".

And the fact, that even among the good people here, basically nobody said a word to defend me or reprimand the scumbags for their abuse - also reflects a lot.

Enjoy your forum.

User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 33216
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by Graham Banks » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:26 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:......With the exception of a few wonderful people, I've now all but lost respect for this "community" and have absolutely no interest in engaging with these people.

The fact that I can be accused of being a thief and insulted frequently on this forum for sincere (although sometimes controversial in the eyes of long-timers) questions, reflects on the quality of the people here.

The fact that after the author of one of the commercial engines I purchased had to come on this site and say "For the record, Brendan is a registered owner of Houdini 5", my accusers instead of retracting their abuse (or god forbid, giving an apology) dissapeared back into their hole, waiting to reemerge, guerrilla warfare style for round 2 - reflects a lot on this "community".

And the fact, that even among the good people here, basically nobody said a word to defend me or reprimand the scumbags for their abuse - also reflects a lot.

Enjoy your forum.
I wouldn't let this bad experience turn you away from this forum.

Many years of experience here has led me to the conclusion that it's healthier to concentrate on the aspects of the hobby that you enjoy most, while steering clear of other matters.

However, it certainly wasn't right to question whether or not you were using legitimate copies of commercial engines.

Sometimes members here are too quick to attack others (and yes, I've been guilty of this in the past too).

Graham.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

Post Reply