The Computer Chess Community

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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BrendanJNorman
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Full name: Brendan J Norman

The Computer Chess Community

Post by BrendanJNorman » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:30 am

Hi All,

Recently in a thread about Deep Synapze (http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62842) I shared some opinions that as a non-programming chess player with an interest in chess engines, had developed over my experience with chess engines.

Like most non-programmer chessplayers, I unlike many here, have not spent 10+ years studying the code of every "suspicious" engine, nor have I done "similarity" tests and all of this stuff.

More likely, I typed into google (years ago) "human like engine" and found Prodeo.

This led me to the Chess Programming wiki which led me to Talkchess.

I spent my time actually using the computer to improve my chess and reached a respectable level as a result.

Over the years, since 1999 when I became more interested and moved on from Chessmaster 9000 (lol), I've bought and owned Fritz, ChessTiger, Shredder, Ktulu, Junior and tons more

And this trend has not changed.

A couple of months ago, I bought Houdini 5 (and Hiarcs 13, so I could have the Fritz 12 GUI as well) as soon as it was released.

I guess it's safe to say that I'm a loyal supporter of the "computer chess community".

I'm also pretty sure that the engines of Prodeo, Rodent, Rhetoric, Twisted Logic, Gambit Fruit and others get a nice number of downloads because of traffic directly to my website.

Yet due to my comments in the Synapze thread (that it is not the engine user's morality at stake to try a new interesting or controversial engine), I had members of this forum throw insults at me and imply something about my "only taking from the chess community and not giving" and another even questioning where I got another engine.

Look here, some of you are despicable bullies whose only interest (I assume you haven't played chess for decades) is to insult people and throw stones on internet forums.

You are so full of bitterness and ill-feeling toward others, it's sickening.

I'll tell you something.

The average chess fan (or even me who is more experienced than average with engines, but not a programmer or member of your beloved "community") has no idea of the difference between a derivative, a clone or whatever other insider words you have.

We just want to try some cool engines and many of us are willing to pay for them.

I have students as well as people from my mailing list and Facebook page, ask me regularly which engines to download for this or that (training games, analysis, openings or whatever) and in reality, we are the end user you are writing this stuff for.

I assume every programmer (or at least most) would like to sell their work if it were somehow to become #1 and we are the ones buying/downloading it.

Only a tiny proportion (i imagine) of the market are "computer chess aficionados", but are more likely the average Joe chessplayer who wants to run his game through an engine after the tournament.

For you to question MY morality due to my not lining up with your expectations of "Assumed Knowledge" of which engines are clones, or whatever - and then insulting me for it is despicable.

I suppose you'd also lose patience with a child when they don't know what you expect them to know too, huh? Your type of personality DOES carry over into other realms of life.

A gentleman would say: "Brendan, there's a lot of background here you don't understand...back in..." etc.

But you aren't gentlemen.

It's not my job to study your industry to find which products are reliable or to "drain the swamp" of criminals.

It's my job to try the various offerings and make up my own mind.

How is one to know?

Have you guys ever considered making a thread on talkchess and stickying it, which has detailed information about "honest" engines, clones or whatever?

Or do you just assume that "honest people will know"?

Here's what I DO know.

- Rybka 1.0 has been attacked

- Strelka has been attacked

- Houdini 1.0 was more or less proven to be a clone of Robbolito (even Richard Vida and Lance Perkins directly told Houdart to stop lying about it)

- Someone even called Fire 5 a Stockfish clone!

- Thinker has been attacked

*Houdart has never admitted to cloning Robo, yet you guys worship Houdini (yes I know that it's very unique now, but would I be "immoral" If I preferred version 1.0?)

*Strelka appears in Graham's CCRL rating list, implying to me that you guys have no issue with his testing it, right?

If I type the word "clone" into the search box, 77 pages (!) of posts containing the word appear.

And random, non-programmer, common chessplayers interested in engines are supposed to wade through this sewer and understand what's going on?

Or should they just download said engine and give it a test?

Makes a lot more sense to me.

How dare you Guenther Simon attack me, sling insults and spout B.S like "I shudder to think where he got the commercial engines he uses" without basis.

Such insolence would buy you a smack in the nose offline, but I guess this message board is your "safe space" huh? :roll:

What basis did you have to attack me?

You aren't even a programmer yourself, just a "computer chess aficionado" with a chip on your shoulder.

So I have some questions:

1. Is it okay for me to use Houdini 1.0? (Houdart has never admitted to having cloned Robo)

2. Is it okay for me to use Rybka 1.0? (Vas copped tons of crap for this and himself was also throwig the "that's a clone of Rybka!" stone as often as he felt)

3. Is it okay for me to use Strelka?

Regardless, I don't care.

It seems you guys don't even have a set of consistent rules for computer chess "morality", just moving targets and "exceptions", so until you can address newcomers in a polite manner, or educate those who aren't aware of such important "moral education", I'll use (and instruct others to use), whatever engines I like.

P.S I can see why so many of the fantastic programmers of the past, no longer/seldom post on this forum.

elcabesa
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Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by elcabesa » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:01 am

Hi Brendan,

chess programming community is complicated, there are lot of different idea about what is correct or not.

There are a lot of level you should consider, the first one is Legal, and this is related to the copyright laws protecting software.
Then there are ideoloy about using code from other projects, someone consider good only using idea, someone consider good using also code.

it's not easy at all, and someone is not so polite when arguing about those problems.

sorry, we are not perfect :)

styx
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Location: Germany

Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by styx » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:41 am

I can relate to many things in your posting. But you always need to remember: this is the internet. People get offended very easily and its anonymity makes it very easy to attack someone they don't even know.
My advise would be: be the Teflon man. Don't take things too personally from people who should not matter in your life. This way your life becomes a little less frustrating.

But always remember: stay the hell out of the "Chess Thinkers" sub-forum!

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Laskos
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Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by Laskos » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:45 am

Brendan, don't worry. We are all here due to almost psychiatric reasons, aside being nerds and socially useless persons. The fact that not a single female posts here shows us our real value. Take it easy.

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velmarin
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Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by velmarin » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:51 am

No one has told you, do not use any engines.
People are made with Sypnaze and if you want to use it.

I believe that only two engines have been directly sanctioned, Rybka that was crushed without his titles and another that its author had to return the money charged, of its free will.

You can use whatever you want,

But you criticize and critique the comments here, we only discussed about these engines.
Nobody forbids its use, it is impossible.

If you are dedicated to teaching and publish on your blog, you would think that your articles are copied without giving you a merit.

Dayffd
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Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by Dayffd » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:08 pm

Laskos wrote:Brendan, don't worry. We are all here due to almost psychiatric reasons, aside being nerds and socially useless persons. The fact that not a single female posts here shows us our real value. Take it easy.
LOL :lol:
David S.

Guenther
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Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by Guenther » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:11 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote:Hi All,

blabla...
Did you finally realize that the pogram you tried to defend is a blatant _copy_ of asmfish?

I really 'love' that witchhunts against people who just want to inform.
If you don't understand what it is all about, why trying to defend the 'unknown'?
You quite make a fool out of yourself since deepsynapze fka deepsynapse fka ...(changed its name as often as the used cloned programs)

BTW nothing in your post has anything to do with what was discussed in deepsynapze... (regrettably also the answers - except one sensible post by velmarin,
but I assume no one read the full litany)

*a hint: paragraphs around _each_ sentence look ugly as hell and make long text unreadable.

Stan Arts
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Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by Stan Arts » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:58 pm

Nothing like a rush of hot air on a chilly winter's day.

"I'll tell you something. Look here. I'm a gentleman. You are despicable bullies. Let me make wild generalisations. I'm a genius chessplayer. You haven't played chess for decades. Here's what I know. Regardless, I don't care. "

Oh, okay.

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BrendanJNorman
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Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by BrendanJNorman » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:31 pm

Stan Arts wrote:Nothing like a rush of hot air on a chilly winter's day.

"I'll tell you something. Look here. I'm a gentleman. You are despicable bullies. Let me make wild generalisations. I'm a genius chessplayer. You haven't played chess for decades. Here's what I know. Regardless, I don't care. "

Oh, okay.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... o-Extremes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoting_out_of_context

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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AdminX
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Re: The Computer Chess Community

Post by AdminX » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:40 pm

Laskos wrote:Brendan, don't worry. We are all here due to almost psychiatric reasons, aside being nerds and socially useless persons. The fact that not a single female posts here shows us our real value. Take it easy.
ImageImage
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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