What happend to TCEC?

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whereagles
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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by whereagles » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:07 pm

Last TCEC needed north of ~10k. The money was used for renting high performance servers.

I'm not sure this business model is adequate because it is expensive and does not capitalize well. That 10k could have been used for buying a reasonable machine for a couple of seasons and chessdom would only have to pay for electricity, which should be much easier.

It would also allow 2 seasons/year (even if shorter), generating more interest for computer chess and probably even more money for the organizers.

The situation sucks because TCEC contributed very positively for my well-being :)

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lucasart
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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by lucasart » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:21 pm

whereagles wrote:Last TCEC needed north of ~10k. The money was used for renting high performance servers.

I'm not sure this business model is adequate because it is expensive and does not capitalize well. That 10k could have been used for buying a reasonable machine for a couple of seasons and chessdom would only have to pay for electricity, which should be much easier.
Indeed! Their "business model" really makes no sense…

And to further save on electricity, as well as make the event more interesting to watch, they should reduce the tc drastically (eg. 60'+30" is more than enough IMO). Just watching a single game of TCEC final takes 8 hours!!! So, apart from a few people who have no life, it's impossible to watch games live: way too slow.

Instead you just watch the replay after, but then you dont need TCEC for that. Graham's tournament are equally interesting for that matter (more in fact). Another problem with ultra long tc is the draw rate skyrockets. But, wait, TCEC folks have found a "solution" for that in S9: they use some biaised openings, giving white a quasi won game. So lame…

It's really a misconception that LTC games are more interesting. On the contrary, blitz games are much more sharp and exciting. You really see engines going for it, and getting into crazy double-edged positions in ultra blitz. Much more fun!
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: What happend to TCEC?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:59 pm

hgm wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:But the ultimate chess on the ultimate hardware is another question.
If you want to see breathtaking moves that require absurd depths and nodecounts, then your choices are TCEC and correspondence chess.
Not really. Everyone can do it at home as well. Just download a few top engines, and have them run on your PC at really slow TC.

For games on the 'ultimate hardware' you have to watch Johnny play at WCCC. TCEC is a far cry from 2048 cores.
mjlef wrote:Maybe Anton should setup a gofundme for TCEC. It could be a measure of how much entertainment people would get out of a new Season.
Why such a complex solution? TCEC doesn't require anything special, does it? Just a computer and an internet connection, and you can run something like it. There must be many people here that have suitable hardware. What is stopping them? If I had any interest in orthodox Chess I would already have done it myself...
besides, they even get partially paid.

no one volunteering? :)

Modern Times
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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by Modern Times » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:04 pm

lucasart wrote:
And to further save on electricity, as well as make the event more interesting to watch, they should reduce the tc drastically (eg. 60'+30" is more than enough IMO). Just watching a single game of TCEC final takes 8 hours!!! So, apart from a few people who have no life, it's impossible to watch games live: way too slow. Instead you just watch the replay after, but then you dont need TCEC for that.
Totally agree and I've said the same thing more than once. I lost all interest in TCEC for these reasons. The point of using huge hardware is that you can shorten the time control and still get high quality chess, if that is the aim.
.

Opinions expressed here are my own, and not necessarily those of the CCRL Group.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:07 pm

Nelson Hernandez wrote:AKA Cato the Younger here.

I dropped Anton an email a couple of months ago inquiring about his plans. He promptly responded and assured me that he intended for there to be a TCEC Season 10. However he was unspecific concerning timing. Apparently TCEC's sources of funding are insufficient to cover the capital and labor expenses the tournament generates and this poses a challenge.

The lack of official communication is, obviously, not encouraging and does not help the brand. I refer you to Martin Thoresen's cri de cœur. I share many of his laments. But of course if the season happens I will serve in my customary role.

My biggest problem right now is that I forgot my ChatWing password to my TCEC VIP nick. Yikes.
how was it able to operate without Anton then?

you guys, one of you, especially Anton, but Martin too, who certainly might be reading this, and maybe Adam and others who might possibly be in the knowing, are simply obliged, because of the wide and deep interest in TCEC, to provide the general public with more information:
- when will next TCEC start
- why will it not start this time
- who is to blame for that

Martin/others simply lost interest is also sufficient, but should be said plain and straightforward.

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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:10 pm

mjlef wrote:
Nelson Hernandez wrote:AKA Cato the Younger here.

...

My biggest problem right now is that I forgot my ChatWing password to my TCEC VIP nick. Yikes.
There is this guy in Moscow by the name of, I think, V. Putin. He might be able to help!

Maybe Anton should setup a gofundme for TCEC. It could be a measure of how much entertainment people would get out of a new Season.
this one has sufficient problems with Trump right now. :)

but maybe you know something the general public does not know.

what precisely happened?

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Nordlandia
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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by Nordlandia » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:31 pm

lucasart wrote:
And to further save on electricity, as well as make the event more interesting to watch, they should reduce the tc drastically (eg. 60'+30" is more than enough IMO)
Another discussed ide is to divide the money used on the primary server in half so we can benefit from ponder. Resulting in two above-mediocre servers with identical hardware.

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Nelson Hernandez
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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by Nelson Hernandez » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:16 pm

In general we shouldn't be harsh in our judgments.

TCEC is exclusively owned, operated, organized and run by Anton Mihailov. Everyone else associated with TCEC is a volunteer or barely-compensated deputy. (I personally have never gotten a penny.) Nobody can "fire" Anton. In cases like this what happens instead is that something better comes along and the old institution becomes irrelevant.

As for suggestions on how he might cut costs, I am sure he has considered those options. Which is why I suggest that brickbats are unhelpful. None of us know what the particulars are over there in Bulgaria. It could be a simple case of a man's vision being longer than his reach. Anton surely has to know that eventually someone will build a better mousetrap if he doesn't get on with the show.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:23 pm

Nelson Hernandez wrote:In general we shouldn't be harsh in our judgments.

TCEC is exclusively owned, operated, organized and run by Anton Mihailov. Everyone else associated with TCEC is a volunteer or barely-compensated deputy. (I personally have never gotten a penny.) Nobody can "fire" Anton. In cases like this what happens instead is that something better comes along and the old institution becomes irrelevant.

As for suggestions on how he might cut costs, I am sure he has considered those options. Which is why I suggest that brickbats are unhelpful. None of us know what the particulars are over there in Bulgaria. It could be a simple case of a man's vision being longer than his reach. Anton surely has to know that eventually someone will build a better mousetrap if he doesn't get on with the show.
I certainly know. :)

no one intends harshness.

we just want to know what happens.

- TCEC is discontinued until more cash is found, ok
- TCEC will start in 3 months' time, ok
- TCEC is permanently discontinued, ok, but tell us what is going on

Paloma
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Re: What happened to TCEC?

Post by Paloma » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:46 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: I certainly know. :)

no one intends harshness.

we just want to know what happens.

- TCEC is discontinued until more cash is found, ok
- TCEC will start in 3 months' time, ok
- TCEC is permanently discontinued, ok, but tell us what is going on
That's exactly what I think, Lyudmil

And they should reduce the TC drastically,
and as Ray Banks says: The point of using huge hardware is that you can shorten the time control and still get high quality chess.

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