Good point. It was always a pleasure to see Genius' nice positional play triumph vs Fritz brutal tactics.hammerklavier wrote:Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
Quick! Send an emergency memo to GM Zhang Zhong, he hasn't heard yet!Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:...the Alekhine is a bust.
It's his main repertoire!
Here's a serious game from just a few weeks ago.
[pgn][Event "19th Dubai Open 2017"]
[Site "Dubai UAE"]
[Date "2017.04.10"]
[Round "8.11"]
[White "Schroeder, Jan-Christian"]
[Black "Zhang, Zhong"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B03"]
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.exd6 cxd6 6.Nc3 g6 7.Be3 Bg7 8.Rc1 O-O 9.b3 Bf5 10.Nf3 d5 11.c5 Nc8 12.b4 a6 13.a4 Bg4 14.Be2 Nc6 15.b5 axb5 16.axb5 Na5 17.O-O e6 18.Na4 Qe8 19.Bf4 Bxf3 20.gxf3 Qe7 21.c6 bxc6 22.b6 Qb4 23.Bc7 Qxd4 24.Nc5 Qb4 25.Qc2 Bd4 26.Nd7 Re8 27.Rfd1 Bg7 28.Rb1 Qe7 29.Nb8 Nxb6 30.Bxb6 Rexb8 31.f4 Qd6 32.Qa4 Bc3 33.Qc2 Bf6 34.Qa4 Bd8 35.Be3 Nc4 0-1[/pgn]
I guess an experienced Chinese GM like him doesn't have Stockfish,huh?
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
hammerklavier wrote:Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Citation is needed for your claim.
WCCC winners:
Code: Select all
Event # Year Winner
1 1974 Kaissa
2 1977 Chess 4.6[2]
3 1980 Belle
4 1983 Cray Blitz
5 1986 Cray Blitz
6 1989 Deep Thought
7 1992 ChessMachine (Gideon)
8 1995 Fritz
9 1999 Shredder
10 2002 Deep Junior
11 2003 Shredder
12 2004 Deep Junior
13 2005 Zappa
14 2006 Junior
15 2007 Zappa[wccc 1]
16 2008 HIARCS[wccc 1]
17 2009 Junior, Shredder, Sjeng[wccc 1]
18 2010 Rondo, Thinker[wccc 1]
19 2011 Junior
20 2013 Junior
21 2015 Jonny
22 2016 Komodo
Last edited by MikeGL on Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
There are two types of people on TC...Uri Blass wrote:For the complain about ugly 2D pieces I do not think that there is a significant difference in the ability to concentrate and I think that people do not play worse when they play with 2D pieces relative to a real board.
Type 1 is the passionate chess nerd with an interest in computers.
This is the group I belong to.
Type 2 are passionate computer nerds who like chess.
This is the group you appear to belong to.
Any serious chess player would much much prefer to play over a physical board than on a computer screen with 1980s graphics.
This is why as a 15 year old I relayed the moves from Chessmaster 3000 to my chessboard in training games.
And why in the traditional "man vs machine" matches, the moves were relayed to the board for the human player.
Chessplayers prefer chess boards, this is indisputable as Lyudmil has already confirmed (he is a 2160 ELO player, so can probably be referred to as a "chessplayer infected with the computer virus" )
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
I think he's referring to this:MikeGL wrote:hammerklavier wrote:Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Citation is needed for your claim.
WCCC winners:I can't find the name of Chess Genius on this WCCC list, but Fritz2 won Hong Kong 8th WCCC 1995 and beat Deep Blue prototype there. Unless of course if ChessGenius is using another name like in the case of The King (Chessmaster), where its name is different from the commercial program.Code: Select all
Event # Year Winner 1 1974 Kaissa 2 1977 Chess 4.6[2] 3 1980 Belle 4 1983 Cray Blitz 5 1986 Cray Blitz 6 1989 Deep Thought 7 1992 ChessMachine (Gideon) 8 1995 Fritz 9 1999 Shredder 10 2002 Deep Junior 11 2003 Shredder 12 2004 Deep Junior 13 2005 Zappa 14 2006 Junior 15 2007 Zappa[wccc 1] 16 2008 HIARCS[wccc 1] 17 2009 Junior, Shredder, Sjeng[wccc 1] 18 2010 Rondo, Thinker[wccc 1] 19 2011 Junior 20 2013 Junior 21 2015 Jonny 22 2016 Komodo
THE SSDF RATING LIST 1995-09-08 44786 games played by 142 computers
Rating + - Games Won Oppo
------ --- --- ----- --- ----
1 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2451 37 -35 415 70% 2306
2 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2431 42 -40 309 64% 2327
3 Hiarcs 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2422 42 -39 313 65% 2315
4 MChess Pro 4.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2396 41 -39 310 59% 2329
5 Fritz 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2373 37 -36 377 59% 2312
6 R30 v. 2.5 2369 93 -70 111 83% 2101
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... GRnYtzTth4
which appears pretty convincing compared to WCCC events where all programs are doctored in order to try to win a specific event.
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
Thanks for pointing that out. But SSDF list is not that convincing either and has its loopholes too. Not to discredit SSDF because I also visit their site most of the time to view engine games and standings of engines, but on your above list the total number of games were not equal. Also, it should be a Swiss system tournament and not a random number of games against some random opponents. Which means that the result can possibly be rigged too. Case in point, see the above SSDF list you've posted and you'll notice that the losses of Fritz is less than the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placer, and the total number of games played by each engine is not the same. This simply shows the ranking is not accurate too.BrendanJNorman wrote:I think he's referring to this:MikeGL wrote:hammerklavier wrote:Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Citation is needed for your claim.
WCCC winners:I can't find the name of Chess Genius on this WCCC list, but Fritz2 won Hong Kong 8th WCCC 1995 and beat Deep Blue prototype there. Unless of course if ChessGenius is using another name like in the case of The King (Chessmaster), where its name is different from the commercial program.Code: Select all
Event # Year Winner 1 1974 Kaissa 2 1977 Chess 4.6[2] 3 1980 Belle 4 1983 Cray Blitz 5 1986 Cray Blitz 6 1989 Deep Thought 7 1992 ChessMachine (Gideon) 8 1995 Fritz 9 1999 Shredder 10 2002 Deep Junior 11 2003 Shredder 12 2004 Deep Junior 13 2005 Zappa 14 2006 Junior 15 2007 Zappa[wccc 1] 16 2008 HIARCS[wccc 1] 17 2009 Junior, Shredder, Sjeng[wccc 1] 18 2010 Rondo, Thinker[wccc 1] 19 2011 Junior 20 2013 Junior 21 2015 Jonny 22 2016 Komodo
THE SSDF RATING LIST 1995-09-08 44786 games played by 142 computers
Rating + - Games Won Oppo
------ --- --- ----- --- ----
1 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2451 37 -35 415 70% 2306
2 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2431 42 -40 309 64% 2327
3 Hiarcs 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2422 42 -39 313 65% 2315
4 MChess Pro 4.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2396 41 -39 310 59% 2329
5 Fritz 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2373 37 -36 377 59% 2312
6 R30 v. 2.5 2369 93 -70 111 83% 2101
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... GRnYtzTth4
which appears pretty convincing compared to WCCC events where all programs are doctored in order to try to win a specific event.
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
Yep you're right, but no method is perfect.MikeGL wrote:Thanks for pointing that out. But SSDF list is not that convincing either and has its loopholes too. Not to discredit SSDF because I also visit their site most of the time to view engine games and standings of engines, but on your above list the total number of games were not equal. Also, it should be a Swiss system tournament and not a random number of games against some random opponents. Which means that the result can possibly be rigged too. Case in point, see the above SSDF list you've posted and you'll notice that the losses of Fritz is less than the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placer, and the total number of games played by each engine is not the same. This simply shows the ranking is not accurate too.BrendanJNorman wrote:I think he's referring to this:MikeGL wrote:hammerklavier wrote:Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Citation is needed for your claim.
WCCC winners:I can't find the name of Chess Genius on this WCCC list, but Fritz2 won Hong Kong 8th WCCC 1995 and beat Deep Blue prototype there. Unless of course if ChessGenius is using another name like in the case of The King (Chessmaster), where its name is different from the commercial program.Code: Select all
Event # Year Winner 1 1974 Kaissa 2 1977 Chess 4.6[2] 3 1980 Belle 4 1983 Cray Blitz 5 1986 Cray Blitz 6 1989 Deep Thought 7 1992 ChessMachine (Gideon) 8 1995 Fritz 9 1999 Shredder 10 2002 Deep Junior 11 2003 Shredder 12 2004 Deep Junior 13 2005 Zappa 14 2006 Junior 15 2007 Zappa[wccc 1] 16 2008 HIARCS[wccc 1] 17 2009 Junior, Shredder, Sjeng[wccc 1] 18 2010 Rondo, Thinker[wccc 1] 19 2011 Junior 20 2013 Junior 21 2015 Jonny 22 2016 Komodo
THE SSDF RATING LIST 1995-09-08 44786 games played by 142 computers
Rating + - Games Won Oppo
------ --- --- ----- --- ----
1 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2451 37 -35 415 70% 2306
2 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2431 42 -40 309 64% 2327
3 Hiarcs 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2422 42 -39 313 65% 2315
4 MChess Pro 4.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2396 41 -39 310 59% 2329
5 Fritz 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2373 37 -36 377 59% 2312
6 R30 v. 2.5 2369 93 -70 111 83% 2101
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... GRnYtzTth4
which appears pretty convincing compared to WCCC events where all programs are doctored in order to try to win a specific event.
You're actually tempting me to run some Fritz 3 vs Genius 3 matches
I think we're digressing from the main point of the post though.
SSDF was pretty authoritative at the time though, and even I kept an eye on it as a kid despite being pretty new to the computer chess world.
There are a lot of loopholes we can point out that may imply that either side's data is unreliable, but the original argument was that Genius 3 was defeating GMs under normal conditions, which is true.
Fritz was doing the same, but who knows who was stronger?
SDDF says Genius, WCCC says Fritz, but did Genius play in the 1995 WCCC?
I dunno...who cares.
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
I think that it is dependent on the player and the type of game that they are used to play(I mean if in most of their game they use a physical board or if in most of their games they use the computer screen).BrendanJNorman wrote:There are two types of people on TC...Uri Blass wrote:For the complain about ugly 2D pieces I do not think that there is a significant difference in the ability to concentrate and I think that people do not play worse when they play with 2D pieces relative to a real board.
Type 1 is the passionate chess nerd with an interest in computers.
This is the group I belong to.
Type 2 are passionate computer nerds who like chess.
This is the group you appear to belong to.
Any serious chess player would much much prefer to play over a physical board than on a computer screen with 1980s graphics.
This is why as a 15 year old I relayed the moves from Chessmaster 3000 to my chessboard in training games.
And why in the traditional "man vs machine" matches, the moves were relayed to the board for the human player.
Chessplayers prefer chess boards, this is indisputable as Lyudmil has already confirmed (he is a 2160 ELO player, so can probably be referred to as a "chessplayer infected with the computer virus" )
I admit that nobody today use 1980s graphics but still many strong chess players play a lot of blitz games in sites like ICC so they are used not to see a physical board in most of the time they play chess.
It may be easier for somebody who look at the board to think about short distance and not about long distance that practically happen if you use a real board.
For the record you are a stronger chess player than me but I still consider myself as a chess player.
My fide rating now is 1957
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
I've checked your game with Genius 3.0 under real DOS at 3.3 GHz and 32MB hash.BrendanJNorman wrote:
Here's my game anyway, clearly 11...0-0?? is a terrible, losing move which proves Kramnik's old assertion that "computer's weakness is tactics".
Genius 3.0 sees the blunder 11. ... O-O?? immediately in depth 5 already. It's also
able to see other mistakes of the "slow motion Genius 3.0". So crushing it easily
is not possible anymore, if Genius is running with todays speed.
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?
"All men are in construction... Some build tall buildings, others tear them down"Martin Hertz wrote:I've checked your game with Genius 3.0 under real DOS at 3.3 GHz and 32MB hash.BrendanJNorman wrote:
Here's my game anyway, clearly 11...0-0?? is a terrible, losing move which proves Kramnik's old assertion that "computer's weakness is tactics".
Genius 3.0 sees the blunder 11. ... O-O?? immediately in depth 5 already. It's also
able to see other mistakes of the "slow motion Genius 3.0". So crushing it easily
is not possible anymore, if Genius is running with todays speed.