Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

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BrendanJNorman
Posts: 1400
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Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by BrendanJNorman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:44 am

hammerklavier wrote:
ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.
Good point. It was always a pleasure to see Genius' nice positional play triumph vs Fritz brutal tactics.

BrendanJNorman
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Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by BrendanJNorman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:48 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:...the Alekhine is a bust.
Quick! Send an emergency memo to GM Zhang Zhong, he hasn't heard yet!

It's his main repertoire! :?

Here's a serious game from just a few weeks ago.

[pgn][Event "19th Dubai Open 2017"]
[Site "Dubai UAE"]
[Date "2017.04.10"]
[Round "8.11"]
[White "Schroeder, Jan-Christian"]
[Black "Zhang, Zhong"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B03"]

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.exd6 cxd6 6.Nc3 g6 7.Be3 Bg7 8.Rc1 O-O 9.b3 Bf5 10.Nf3 d5 11.c5 Nc8 12.b4 a6 13.a4 Bg4 14.Be2 Nc6 15.b5 axb5 16.axb5 Na5 17.O-O e6 18.Na4 Qe8 19.Bf4 Bxf3 20.gxf3 Qe7 21.c6 bxc6 22.b6 Qb4 23.Bc7 Qxd4 24.Nc5 Qb4 25.Qc2 Bd4 26.Nd7 Re8 27.Rfd1 Bg7 28.Rb1 Qe7 29.Nb8 Nxb6 30.Bxb6 Rexb8 31.f4 Qd6 32.Qa4 Bc3 33.Qc2 Bf6 34.Qa4 Bd8 35.Be3 Nc4 0-1[/pgn]

I guess an experienced Chinese GM like him doesn't have Stockfish,huh?

:lol:

MikeGL
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by MikeGL » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:54 am

hammerklavier wrote:
ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.

Citation is needed for your claim.

WCCC winners:

Code: Select all

Event #	Year	Winner
1	1974	Kaissa
2	1977	Chess 4.6[2]
3	1980	Belle
4	1983	Cray Blitz
5	1986	Cray Blitz
6	1989	Deep Thought
7	1992	ChessMachine (Gideon)
8	1995	Fritz
9	1999	Shredder
10	2002	Deep Junior
11	2003	Shredder
12	2004	Deep Junior
13	2005	Zappa
14	2006	Junior
15	2007	Zappa[wccc 1]
16	2008	HIARCS[wccc 1]
17	2009	Junior, Shredder, Sjeng[wccc 1]
18	2010	Rondo, Thinker[wccc 1]
19	2011	Junior
20	2013	Junior
21	2015	Jonny
22	2016	Komodo
I can't find the name of Chess Genius on this WCCC list, but Fritz2 won Hong Kong 8th WCCC 1995 and beat Deep Blue prototype there. Unless of course if ChessGenius is using another name like in the case of The King (Chessmaster), where its name is different from the commercial program.
Last edited by MikeGL on Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

BrendanJNorman
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Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by BrendanJNorman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:56 am

Uri Blass wrote:For the complain about ugly 2D pieces I do not think that there is a significant difference in the ability to concentrate and I think that people do not play worse when they play with 2D pieces relative to a real board.
There are two types of people on TC...

Type 1 is the passionate chess nerd with an interest in computers.

This is the group I belong to. :D

Type 2 are passionate computer nerds who like chess.

This is the group you appear to belong to.

Any serious chess player would much much prefer to play over a physical board than on a computer screen with 1980s graphics.

This is why as a 15 year old I relayed the moves from Chessmaster 3000 to my chessboard in training games.

And why in the traditional "man vs machine" matches, the moves were relayed to the board for the human player.

Chessplayers prefer chess boards, this is indisputable as Lyudmil has already confirmed (he is a 2160 ELO player, so can probably be referred to as a "chessplayer infected with the computer virus" :lol:)

BrendanJNorman
Posts: 1400
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:43 pm
Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by BrendanJNorman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:03 am

MikeGL wrote:
hammerklavier wrote:
ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.

Citation is needed for your claim.

WCCC winners:

Code: Select all

Event #	Year	Winner
1	1974	Kaissa
2	1977	Chess 4.6[2]
3	1980	Belle
4	1983	Cray Blitz
5	1986	Cray Blitz
6	1989	Deep Thought
7	1992	ChessMachine (Gideon)
8	1995	Fritz
9	1999	Shredder
10	2002	Deep Junior
11	2003	Shredder
12	2004	Deep Junior
13	2005	Zappa
14	2006	Junior
15	2007	Zappa[wccc 1]
16	2008	HIARCS[wccc 1]
17	2009	Junior, Shredder, Sjeng[wccc 1]
18	2010	Rondo, Thinker[wccc 1]
19	2011	Junior
20	2013	Junior
21	2015	Jonny
22	2016	Komodo
I can't find the name of Chess Genius on this WCCC list, but Fritz2 won Hong Kong 8th WCCC 1995 and beat Deep Blue prototype there. Unless of course if ChessGenius is using another name like in the case of The King (Chessmaster), where its name is different from the commercial program.
I think he's referring to this:

THE SSDF RATING LIST 1995-09-08 44786 games played by 142 computers

Rating + - Games Won Oppo
------ --- --- ----- --- ----
1 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2451 37 -35 415 70% 2306
2 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2431 42 -40 309 64% 2327
3 Hiarcs 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2422 42 -39 313 65% 2315
4 MChess Pro 4.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2396 41 -39 310 59% 2329
5 Fritz 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2373 37 -36 377 59% 2312
6 R30 v. 2.5 2369 93 -70 111 83% 2101

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... GRnYtzTth4

which appears pretty convincing compared to WCCC events where all programs are doctored in order to try to win a specific event.

MikeGL
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by MikeGL » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:08 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
hammerklavier wrote:
ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.

Citation is needed for your claim.

WCCC winners:

Code: Select all

Event #	Year	Winner
1	1974	Kaissa
2	1977	Chess 4.6[2]
3	1980	Belle
4	1983	Cray Blitz
5	1986	Cray Blitz
6	1989	Deep Thought
7	1992	ChessMachine (Gideon)
8	1995	Fritz
9	1999	Shredder
10	2002	Deep Junior
11	2003	Shredder
12	2004	Deep Junior
13	2005	Zappa
14	2006	Junior
15	2007	Zappa[wccc 1]
16	2008	HIARCS[wccc 1]
17	2009	Junior, Shredder, Sjeng[wccc 1]
18	2010	Rondo, Thinker[wccc 1]
19	2011	Junior
20	2013	Junior
21	2015	Jonny
22	2016	Komodo
I can't find the name of Chess Genius on this WCCC list, but Fritz2 won Hong Kong 8th WCCC 1995 and beat Deep Blue prototype there. Unless of course if ChessGenius is using another name like in the case of The King (Chessmaster), where its name is different from the commercial program.
I think he's referring to this:

THE SSDF RATING LIST 1995-09-08 44786 games played by 142 computers

Rating + - Games Won Oppo
------ --- --- ----- --- ----
1 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2451 37 -35 415 70% 2306
2 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2431 42 -40 309 64% 2327
3 Hiarcs 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2422 42 -39 313 65% 2315
4 MChess Pro 4.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2396 41 -39 310 59% 2329
5 Fritz 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2373 37 -36 377 59% 2312
6 R30 v. 2.5 2369 93 -70 111 83% 2101

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... GRnYtzTth4

which appears pretty convincing compared to WCCC events where all programs are doctored in order to try to win a specific event.
Thanks for pointing that out. But SSDF list is not that convincing either and has its loopholes too. Not to discredit SSDF because I also visit their site most of the time to view engine games and standings of engines, but on your above list the total number of games were not equal. Also, it should be a Swiss system tournament and not a random number of games against some random opponents. Which means that the result can possibly be rigged too. Case in point, see the above SSDF list you've posted and you'll notice that the losses of Fritz is less than the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placer, and the total number of games played by each engine is not the same. This simply shows the ranking is not accurate too.

BrendanJNorman
Posts: 1400
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:43 pm
Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by BrendanJNorman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:27 am

MikeGL wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
hammerklavier wrote:
ChessGenius3 is a 1994 chess program. Fritz2.00 in 1992 already won multiple times against Kasparov at Koln Germany.
Blitz games... only 5m /all game. Until version Fritz5, Genius was always stronger than Fritz.

Citation is needed for your claim.

WCCC winners:

Code: Select all

Event #	Year	Winner
1	1974	Kaissa
2	1977	Chess 4.6[2]
3	1980	Belle
4	1983	Cray Blitz
5	1986	Cray Blitz
6	1989	Deep Thought
7	1992	ChessMachine (Gideon)
8	1995	Fritz
9	1999	Shredder
10	2002	Deep Junior
11	2003	Shredder
12	2004	Deep Junior
13	2005	Zappa
14	2006	Junior
15	2007	Zappa[wccc 1]
16	2008	HIARCS[wccc 1]
17	2009	Junior, Shredder, Sjeng[wccc 1]
18	2010	Rondo, Thinker[wccc 1]
19	2011	Junior
20	2013	Junior
21	2015	Jonny
22	2016	Komodo
I can't find the name of Chess Genius on this WCCC list, but Fritz2 won Hong Kong 8th WCCC 1995 and beat Deep Blue prototype there. Unless of course if ChessGenius is using another name like in the case of The King (Chessmaster), where its name is different from the commercial program.
I think he's referring to this:

THE SSDF RATING LIST 1995-09-08 44786 games played by 142 computers

Rating + - Games Won Oppo
------ --- --- ----- --- ----
1 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2451 37 -35 415 70% 2306
2 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2431 42 -40 309 64% 2327
3 Hiarcs 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2422 42 -39 313 65% 2315
4 MChess Pro 4.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2396 41 -39 310 59% 2329
5 Fritz 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2373 37 -36 377 59% 2312
6 R30 v. 2.5 2369 93 -70 111 83% 2101

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... GRnYtzTth4

which appears pretty convincing compared to WCCC events where all programs are doctored in order to try to win a specific event.
Thanks for pointing that out. But SSDF list is not that convincing either and has its loopholes too. Not to discredit SSDF because I also visit their site most of the time to view engine games and standings of engines, but on your above list the total number of games were not equal. Also, it should be a Swiss system tournament and not a random number of games against some random opponents. Which means that the result can possibly be rigged too. Case in point, see the above SSDF list you've posted and you'll notice that the losses of Fritz is less than the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placer, and the total number of games played by each engine is not the same. This simply shows the ranking is not accurate too.
Yep you're right, but no method is perfect.

You're actually tempting me to run some Fritz 3 vs Genius 3 matches :)

I think we're digressing from the main point of the post though.

SSDF was pretty authoritative at the time though, and even I kept an eye on it as a kid despite being pretty new to the computer chess world.

There are a lot of loopholes we can point out that may imply that either side's data is unreliable, but the original argument was that Genius 3 was defeating GMs under normal conditions, which is true.

Fritz was doing the same, but who knows who was stronger?

SDDF says Genius, WCCC says Fritz, but did Genius play in the 1995 WCCC?

I dunno...who cares. :lol:

Uri Blass
Posts: 8554
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:52 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:For the complain about ugly 2D pieces I do not think that there is a significant difference in the ability to concentrate and I think that people do not play worse when they play with 2D pieces relative to a real board.
There are two types of people on TC...

Type 1 is the passionate chess nerd with an interest in computers.

This is the group I belong to. :D

Type 2 are passionate computer nerds who like chess.

This is the group you appear to belong to.

Any serious chess player would much much prefer to play over a physical board than on a computer screen with 1980s graphics.

This is why as a 15 year old I relayed the moves from Chessmaster 3000 to my chessboard in training games.

And why in the traditional "man vs machine" matches, the moves were relayed to the board for the human player.

Chessplayers prefer chess boards, this is indisputable as Lyudmil has already confirmed (he is a 2160 ELO player, so can probably be referred to as a "chessplayer infected with the computer virus" :lol:)
I think that it is dependent on the player and the type of game that they are used to play(I mean if in most of their game they use a physical board or if in most of their games they use the computer screen).

I admit that nobody today use 1980s graphics but still many strong chess players play a lot of blitz games in sites like ICC so they are used not to see a physical board in most of the time they play chess.

It may be easier for somebody who look at the board to think about short distance and not about long distance that practically happen if you use a real board.

For the record you are a stronger chess player than me but I still consider myself as a chess player.

My fide rating now is 1957

Martin Hertz
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by Martin Hertz » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:39 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Here's my game anyway, clearly 11...0-0?? is a terrible, losing move which proves Kramnik's old assertion that "computer's weakness is tactics".
I've checked your game with Genius 3.0 under real DOS at 3.3 GHz and 32MB hash.
Genius 3.0 sees the blunder 11. ... O-O?? immediately in depth 5 already. It's also
able to see other mistakes of the "slow motion Genius 3.0". So crushing it easily
is not possible anymore, if Genius is running with todays speed.

BrendanJNorman
Posts: 1400
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:43 pm
Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: Chess Genius 3 Beat Kasparov on a Pentium 90?

Post by BrendanJNorman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:47 am

Martin Hertz wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:
Here's my game anyway, clearly 11...0-0?? is a terrible, losing move which proves Kramnik's old assertion that "computer's weakness is tactics".
I've checked your game with Genius 3.0 under real DOS at 3.3 GHz and 32MB hash.
Genius 3.0 sees the blunder 11. ... O-O?? immediately in depth 5 already. It's also
able to see other mistakes of the "slow motion Genius 3.0". So crushing it easily
is not possible anymore, if Genius is running with todays speed.
"All men are in construction... Some build tall buildings, others tear them down" :wink:

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