What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

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Jeroen
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by Jeroen » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:36 pm

the line you suggest, 11...b6, quite probably loses very quickly after cb6:
Sorry? "Loses very quickly"? And you know that by just looking at the position without any concrete analysis? Lyudmil, Lyudmil.....

11... b6 is a very normal move in this position, so at least you should have considered it instead of focusing on 11... e5 only.

After 12.cxb6 black doesn't have a backward pawn on c6, as you cannot prevent c6-c5.

Anyway, it is not necessary to explore 11... b6 even further (I think white can get an edge there), as your whole line starting with 11... e5 including 15... Bg4 16.f3 exf3 17.gxf3 Bh3 simply seems to be very good for black, contrary to what you claim. A sample line: 18.Qe2 Nh5!? and black is ready for plans like Nf8-e6-g5, or Ng6 and f5, doubling rooks on the e-file and start squeezing your feeble centre. In the meantime your minority attack is going nowhere and Bc3 is a sorry spectator.

Jeroen
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by Jeroen » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:00 pm

Well said. I am currently analysing his main line up to 17... Bh3 and after some hours of analysis SF says black has a nice advantage in all lines. Here are some examples:

11.c5?! e5! 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 e4 14.Nd2 Nf8 15.Re1 Bg4 16.f3 exf3 17.gxf3 Bh3 and now:

A) 18.Qe2 Nh5!? 19.f4 (or 19.Qf2 Re8 20.f4 Qf6 -0.86 SF, d=45) 19... g6 20.Qf2 Qe6 -0.80 SF.

B) 18.Nf1 Ng6 19.Ng3 Nh4 20.Ra2 h6!? (idea Nf6-h7-g5) -0.87 SF.

White's minority attack on the Q-side goes nowhere, he has to defend his weak points e3 and f3 and take defensive measures against a building black attack on the K-side. So far about 'a clear white advantage'.

Thus, not only is 11.c5 worse than 11.a3, it even allows black to grab the initiative. Of course Aronian played the best move, which I would expect from the GM that is one of the best prepared players in the world.

yanquis1972
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by yanquis1972 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:58 pm

i also used Bh3 as the black move at the end of lyudmil's c5 line & came to the same basic conclusions. it very quickly morphs into something no human would want to enter into.

ridiculous statements like "i proved a3 is a draw" in combination with basically everything else he's posted to this thread make me think he's gone full lyudtroll here.

Jeroen
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by Jeroen » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:27 pm

it very quickly morphs into something no human would want to enter into.
Agreed. Therefore 11.a3! is the better move.

fastgm
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by fastgm » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:31 pm

Stockfish 130617 64 BMI2, Intel E5-2686 v4, 32 Threads, 32 GB Hash

after 11.c5 e5:

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p2n2/2Ppp3/1b1P4/1PN1PN2/P1BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 12
45/65 1:18:29 191.406.432k 40.642k +0,01 12.h3 Re8 13.Na4 Bxd2 14.Nxd2 g6 15.Re1 Rb8 16.Qf3 b5 17.cxb6 Nxb6 18.dxe5 Qxe5 19.Nc5 Nbd7 20.Nxd7 Bxd7 21.Bd3 a5 22.Rac1 Qd6 23.Qd1 c5 24.Qc2 Rbc8 25.e4 a4 26.exd5 axb3 27.Rxe8+ Bxe8 28.Nxb3 Qxd5 29.Bc4 Qg5 30.Qd2 Qxd2 31.Nxd2 Bc6 32.Bb3 Bb5 33.Nc4 Bxc4 34.Bxc4 Kg7 35.Bd3 Nd5

and after 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Bxe4

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1pbp3/8/2PPB3/PP3N2/3B1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 14

44/66 1:00:56 164.124.667k 44.890k -0,25 14. ... Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6 17.Qc1 f5 18.Bc2 Qf6 19.b4 Bc7 20.c5 a5 21.Qb2 Qg7 22.Ba4 Bd7 23.Rfd1 Rdb8 24.Qc3 Be8 25.Bc2 Rd8 26.Rab1 b6 27.Qe1 Qf6 28.Qe3 Ra6 29.g3 b5 30.a4 axb4 31.Rxb4 Rda8 32.Rd3 R6a7 33.Kg2 Bd7 34.axb5 cxb5 35.d5 exd5 36.Qd4 Qxd4 37.Nxd4

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:33 am

whereagles wrote:Lyudmil, history of chess, or any other sport at the top level, is ripe with victories and losses owing to psychology. Trust me, I've been there.
I know that, Nuno.

almost all chess games I lost have been due to the fact that I disliked the noise people made around me... :)

that is why I switched to computer chess, as engines do not disturb you.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:35 am

Jeroen wrote:This is very superficial analysis, white surely isn't safe on the K-side yet after f2-f4 (opening up the g-file with g7-g5 comes to mind).

Meanwhile, from a human standpoint, by playing Bg4 f3,exf3 gxf3 you have accomplished the following:

A) you gave up the black stronghold on e4, which clamps white on the K-side
B) you gave away black's advantage on the K-side
C) you opened the g-file, which doesn't look to be to black's benefit
D) you give white an additional plan with e3-e4
E) you give Bc3 more scope, in the initial position it has almost no active possibilities
F) Bc2 now suddenly has a nice open diagonal

To black's benefit: his bishop has now more scope; he might trade the white squared bishops by Bg4-h5-g6, weakening the white squares; black now has the open e-file.

My SF insists that black has a clear edge after Bh3 (instead of Bh5, but, admittedly, with slow hardware). That looks exaggerated, but one can not ignore the opinion of the strongest engine. To me it looks that black cannot create any threats on the K-side, but the position is complicated and when white doesn't manage his a4/b4/b5 minority attack or his e3-e4 push in the center, the position looks very unclear. Certainly not 'better for white'.
you should clear your views: now you like the white position, and later, the black one.

it is either white, or black who has the advantage.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:44 am

Jeroen wrote:
the line you suggest, 11...b6, quite probably loses very quickly after cb6:
Sorry? "Loses very quickly"? And you know that by just looking at the position without any concrete analysis? Lyudmil, Lyudmil.....

11... b6 is a very normal move in this position, so at least you should have considered it instead of focusing on 11... e5 only.

After 12.cxb6 black doesn't have a backward pawn on c6, as you cannot prevent c6-c5.

Anyway, it is not necessary to explore 11... b6 even further (I think white can get an edge there), as your whole line starting with 11... e5 including 15... Bg4 16.f3 exf3 17.gxf3 Bh3 simply seems to be very good for black, contrary to what you claim. A sample line: 18.Qe2 Nh5!? and black is ready for plans like Nf8-e6-g5, or Ng6 and f5, doubling rooks on the e-file and start squeezing your feeble centre. In the meantime your minority attack is going nowhere and Bc3 is a sorry spectator.
yeah, indeed, b6 most probably loses, I had the time to check this line a bit, and have absolutely no doubt white has substantial advantage.

the winning path is very tricky, though, one should have excellent positional evaluation, and neither SF nor Komodo have one, so they are going to mislead you.

with the way SF would like to play, c5-c6 indeed gets rid of the backward pawn, but white has certainly much better, for example playing a2-a4 after black's a6-a5, fixing the isolated a5 pawn, and combining this with attack on the king side.

in the lines I checked, but always suggesting improvements to SF's choices, white gets to over 50cps, but the win is not quick, as I first thought, but will require quite some time.

the position is very tricky, indeed, you need a human to navigate SF through lines it does not understand.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:52 am

fastgm wrote:Stockfish 130617 64 BMI2, Intel E5-2686 v4, 32 Threads, 32 GB Hash

after 11.c5 e5:

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p2n2/2Ppp3/1b1P4/1PN1PN2/P1BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 12
45/65 1:18:29 191.406.432k 40.642k +0,01 12.h3 Re8 13.Na4 Bxd2 14.Nxd2 g6 15.Re1 Rb8 16.Qf3 b5 17.cxb6 Nxb6 18.dxe5 Qxe5 19.Nc5 Nbd7 20.Nxd7 Bxd7 21.Bd3 a5 22.Rac1 Qd6 23.Qd1 c5 24.Qc2 Rbc8 25.e4 a4 26.exd5 axb3 27.Rxe8+ Bxe8 28.Nxb3 Qxd5 29.Bc4 Qg5 30.Qd2 Qxd2 31.Nxd2 Bc6 32.Bb3 Bb5 33.Nc4 Bxc4 34.Bxc4 Kg7 35.Bd3 Nd5

and after 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Bxe4

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1pbp3/8/2PPB3/PP3N2/3B1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 14

44/66 1:00:56 164.124.667k 44.890k -0,25 14. ... Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6 17.Qc1 f5 18.Bc2 Qf6 19.b4 Bc7 20.c5 a5 21.Qb2 Qg7 22.Ba4 Bd7 23.Rfd1 Rdb8 24.Qc3 Be8 25.Bc2 Rd8 26.Rab1 b6 27.Qe1 Qf6 28.Qe3 Ra6 29.g3 b5 30.a4 axb4 31.Rxb4 Rda8 32.Rd3 R6a7 33.Kg2 Bd7 34.axb5 cxb5 35.d5 exd5 36.Qd4 Qxd4 37.Nxd4
thanks Andreas.

in the first position, SF changes rather quickly its opinion about the best move, h3 or a3, and also their scores, to be seriously trusted. the position is indeed extremely complicated, the most complex of all positions in this game, so SF will have a very hard time assessing it objectively.

top engines as a rule fail to understand similar positions of closed type.

concerning the second position, after black's Nf6, Qc2 instead of Bg5 quite probably wins. but engines will see nothing, you need some 30 moves or so.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:58 am

yanquis1972 wrote:i also used Bh3 as the black move at the end of lyudmil's c5 line & came to the same basic conclusions. it very quickly morphs into something no human would want to enter into.

ridiculous statements like "i proved a3 is a draw" in combination with basically everything else he's posted to this thread make me think he's gone full lyudtroll here.
indeed, there is a forced 15-move line, which I demonstrated, ending with a very simple drawn endgame(0.0 score, for sure, just one piece each side, the fact engines show bigger scores has exclusively to do with their stupidity).

this is like a 32-men, we know the position is a draw, but we do not know what happens after c5 instead, just that white has the advantage, with almost all pieces on the board, so why choose the first option?

Carlsen, having an excellent intuition, recognised of course, that Ba3 Ra3 Qa3 is the line to play, but he did not find the right continuation, as he started wearing glasses.

glasses are always counter-productive to good moves.

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