What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

[yanquis1972]

@lyudmil -- don't know why you're running less than a second unless you simply want to confirm your own biases instead of finding any truth.

i'm not going to prove a win for a3 or the position after Bxa3 because i don't care & i never said either is a win. i said its a brilliant move & to be honest, after analysing (the end of) your alternative c5 line at least, am more inclined to agree.

your line leaves the white king extremely vulnerable & black gathers a quick kingside attack. it is absolutely advantage black & you are showing no evidence of any line that gives black an advantage other than your supposed best one. you continue to imply that if black can possibly draw, it means the move is bad, which ignores the very, very likely probability that the position is drawn before any move by white is made.

[Eelco de Groot]

r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p1pn2/3p4/1bPP4/1PN1PN2/P1BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 9 11



11.a3!! and ...Bxa3 12.Rxa3! Qxa3 13.c5 and white has everything under control.

What a powerful human move
No one of my all engines is able to find this..
Maybe yours engine..can ?!

latest Stockfish 110617 64 BMI2: Intel E5-2666 v3, 8 threads, 16 GB Hash

Got to depth 51 here with a MOD Stockfish (only a slight search modification).

Mostly running this trying to see under which circumstances you get no deeper lines with (default or my mod) Stockfish. It does not seem time related. If it was my GUI I would expect to see it here too. I hope someone can confirm that the issue exists? See https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... Bnw858lEOE
That there is an issue with evaluation of PET 21 is clear but stalling depth not yet confirmed. I will try CLI interface and some older Dev versions later this week but it is /would be strange that it has not been noted before. Is it because everyone using asmFish :)The only thing comparable is Dann reporting EPD issue under Linux /Arena, blank screen but he thought that was Arena related.

[pgn][Event "5th Norway Chess 2017"]
[Site "Stavanger NOR"]
[Date "2017.06.10"]
[Round "4.2"]
[White "Aronian, Levon"]
[Black "Carlsen, Magnus"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteTitle "GM"]
[BlackTitle "GM"]
[WhiteElo "2793"]
[BlackElo "2832"]
[ECO "D45"]
[Opening "QGD semi-Slav"]
[Variation "accelerated Meran (Alekhine variation)"]
[WhiteFideId "13300474"]
[BlackFideId "1503014"]
[EventDate "2017.06.06"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 a6 6. b3 Bb4 7. Bd2 Nbd7 8. Bd3 O-O
9. O-O Qe7 10. Bc2 Rd8 11. a3 Bxa3 12. Rxa3 Qxa3 13. c5 b6 14. b4 Ne4 15. Nxe4
dxe4 16. Bxe4 Rb8 17. Bxh7+ Kxh7 18. Ng5+ Kg8 19. Qh5 Nf6 20. Qxf7+ Kh8 21. Qc7
Bd7 22. Nf7+ Kh7 23. Nxd8 Rc8 24. Qxb6 Nd5 25. Qa7 Rxd8 26. e4 Qd3 27. exd5 Qxd2
28. Qc7 Qg5 29. dxc6 Bc8 30. h3 Qd5 31. Rd1 e5 32. Rd3 exd4 33. Qe7 Bf5 34. Rg3
Bg6 35. Qh4+ 1-0
[/pgn]

r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p1pn2/3p4/1bPP4/1PN1PN2/P1BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - -

Engine: Sf20170524_020 HT MOD (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

20/31 0:02 +0.28 11.c5 e5 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 e4
14.Nd2 Nf8 15.Re1 Bf5 16.b4 Bg4
17.Qc1 Ng6 18.h3 Bf5 19.Bd1 Nh4
20.Be2 h6 21.Nf1 Qd7 (25.335.509) 9243

21/31 0:03 +0.19-- 11.c5 b6 (29.478.482) 9264

21/31 0:03 +0.28++ 11.c5 (33.246.778) 9266

21/31 0:04 +0.21-- 11.c5 b6 (38.423.818) 9256

21/32 0:04 +0.21 11.c5 e5 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 e4
14.Nd2 Nf8 15.b4 Bg4 16.Qe1 Bf5
17.f3 Qe6 18.f4 Re8 19.Qg3 Ng6 20.h3 h5
21.Qf2 Rab8 22.a4 h4 23.Bb3 Qd7
24.Qe1 (39.537.002) 9259

22/32 0:04 +0.28++ 11.c5 (42.119.909) 9263

22/32 0:04 +0.21-- 11.c5 e5 (42.683.155) 9266

22/33 0:05 +0.16 11.c5 e5 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 e4
14.Nd2 Nf8 15.b4 Bg4 16.Qe1 Bf5
17.f4 Qd7 18.Qf2 Re8 19.h3 h5 20.a4 Ng6
21.a5 Re7 22.Bb2 Rae8 23.Qg3 Rd8
24.Qg5 (55.085.295) 9292

23/33 0:06 +0.24++ 11.c5 (55.923.514) 9298

23/33 0:06 +0.31++ 11.c5 (56.601.688) 9301

23/33 0:06 +0.24-- 11.c5 e5 (58.151.277) 9301

23/36 0:06 +0.29 11.c5 e5 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 e4
14.Nd2 Nf8 15.a4 Bf5 16.Qe2 Bg4
17.Qe1 Ne6 18.b4 Bh5 19.Qb1 h6 20.h3 Rab8
21.Qb2 Bg6 22.Bb3 b6 23.Rfe1 Nd7
24.Rad1 (58.996.427) 9303

24/36 0:06 +0.22-- 11.c5 e5 (62.636.839) 9309

24/36 0:07 +0.19 11.c5 e5 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 e4
14.Nd2 Nf8 15.a4 Bf5 16.b4 Qd7
17.Qe2 Bg4 18.f3 exf3 19.Nxf3 Ne4
20.Be1 Re8 21.h3 Bxf3 22.Qxf3 h6
23.Rb1 Ng6 24.Rb3 (65.873.130) 9315

25/38 0:08 +0.26++ 11.c5 (76.817.641) 9297

25/40 0:11 +0.19-- 11.c5 e5 (103.030.657) 9255

25/40 0:14 +0.14 11.c5 e5 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 e4
14.Nd2 Nf8 15.b4 Bg4 16.Qe1 Bf5
17.a4 Qd7 18.Qe2 Bg4 19.f3 exf3
20.Nxf3 Ne4 21.Bb2 Ng5 22.Qd2 Nxf3+
23.gxf3 Bf5 24.e4 (134.469.301) 9199

26/42 0:16 +0.21++ 11.c5 (147.995.979) 9166

26/42 0:18 +0.19 11.Re1 h6 12.e4 dxc4 13.bxc4 e5
14.Rb1 a5 15.Na4 b5 16.cxb5 cxb5
17.Nc3 Bxc3 18.Bxc3 b4 19.Bb2 Bb7
20.d5 Ba6 21.d6 Qe6 22.Bb3 Bc4
23.Bxc4 Qxc4 24.Nxe5 (171.136.458) 9090

27/42 0:22 +0.26++ 11.Re1 (199.409.951) 9002

27/42 0:24 +0.19-- 11.Re1 h6 (216.688.852) 8962

27/42 0:27 +0.11 11.Re1 h6 12.e4 dxc4 13.bxc4 e5
14.Rb1 a5 15.Na4 b6 16.d5 b5 17.cxb5 cxb5
18.Nc3 Ba6 19.Nh4 g6 20.a3 Bxa3
21.Nxb5 Bc5 22.g3 Rab8 23.Nc7 Rxb1
24.Bxb1 (247.705.029) 8899

28/42 0:37 +0.18++ 11.c5 (327.640.241) 8833

28/42 0:40 +0.25 11.c5 e5 12.h3 e4 13.Nh2 a5 14.a3 Bxc3
15.Bxc3 b6 16.cxb6 Nxb6 17.a4 Qa7
18.Qd2 h6 19.Rfb1 Be6 20.Nf1 Rdb8
21.Ng3 Nc8 22.b4 Nd6 23.bxa5 Rxb1+
24.Rxb1 (353.223.114) 8827
.
.
.
40/55 35:24 +0.09 11.c5 e5 12.Na4 a5 13.a3 Bxd2
14.Nxd2 b5 15.cxb6 Ba6 16.Re1 Bb5
17.Nc3 g6 18.Nxb5 cxb5 19.Bd3 b4
20.b7 Ra7 21.e4 dxe4 22.Nxe4 Rxb7
23.Qf3 Nxe4 24.Qxe4 (18.344.200.260) 8635

41/58 43:14 +0.07 11.c5 e5 12.Na4 a5 13.a3 Bxd2
14.Nxd2 b5 15.cxb6 Ba6 16.Re1 Rab8
17.e4 exd4 18.exd5 Qd6 19.dxc6 Qxc6
20.Nf3 Nxb6 21.Nxd4 Qd6 22.Nf3 Nxa4
23.Qxd6 Rxd6 24.bxa4 (22.353.277.766) 8616

42/58 59:17 +0.14++ 11.a3 (30.704.889.011) 8630

42/58 62:39 +0.21++ 11.a3 (32.503.683.161) 8645

42/58 63:21 +0.09-- 11.a3 Bd6 (32.881.551.674) 8649

42/58 65:17 +0.23++ 11.a3 (33.902.796.933) 8654

42/58 66:17 +0.11-- 11.a3 Bd6 (34.437.114.893) 8658

42/58 74:29 +0.27++ 11.a3 (38.855.058.912) 8693

42/60 75:26 +0.20 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 a5 16.Qc2 h6
17.Bxf6 gxf6 18.c5 Bc7 19.b4 axb4
20.axb4 Rxa1 21.Rxa1 e5 22.Bf5 Bxf5
23.Qxf5 Qe6 24.Qxe6 (39.365.261.112) 8696

43/60 77:39 +0.27++ 11.a3 (40.548.720.965) 8702

43/60 85:11 +0.35++ 11.a3 (44.560.543.544) 8717

43/60 86:47 +0.27-- 11.a3 Bd6 (45.419.135.673) 8722

43/60 88:05 +0.12-- 11.a3 Bd6 (46.107.508.863) 8723

43/60 88:27 +0.24++ 11.a3 (46.297.793.479) 8723

43/60 89:23 +0.27 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6
17.Qc1 f5 18.Bc2 Qf8 19.c5 Bc7 20.b4 b6
21.Qe3 a5 22.Rfd1 Ba6 23.Ne5 bxc5
24.bxc5 (46.789.885.594) 8723

44/60 91:28 +0.20-- 11.a3 Bd6 (47.897.974.624) 8727

44/60 95:41 +0.12-- 11.a3 Bd6 (50.140.414.396) 8733

44/60 95:59 +0.20++ 11.a3 (50.306.411.181) 8734

44/60 100:26 +0.30 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6
17.Qc1 f5 18.Bc2 Qf6 19.c5 Bc7
20.Bd3 a5 21.Be2 Qg7 22.b4 f4 23.Re1 Kh8
24.Bf1 (52.665.353.425) 8738

45/61 103:49 +0.22-- 11.a3 Bd6 (54.467.169.473) 8743

45/64 115:33 +0.15-- 11.a3 Bd6 (60.774.451.817) 8765

45/64 116:09 +0.22++ 11.a3 (61.100.758.677) 8767

45/64 118:28 +0.26 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6
17.Qc1 Qf8 18.c5 Bc7 19.Qc2 a5
20.Bd3 b6 21.b4 Ba6 22.Bxa6 Rxa6
23.Qe2 Raa8 24.Rfd1 (62.358.327.014) 8772

46/64 119:28 +0.18-- 11.a3 Bd6 (62.899.782.794) 8774

46/64 130:23 +0.11-- 11.a3 Bd6 (68.787.550.221) 8791

46/64 130:45 +0.18++ 11.a3 (68.984.653.916) 8792

46/64 137:40 +0.09-- 11.a3 Bd6 (72.723.577.712) 8803

46/64 138:43 +0.21++ 11.a3 (73.292.168.201) 8805

46/64 151:50 +0.31 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 Qxf6
17.Qe2 c5 18.dxc5 Bxc5 19.b4 Bf8
20.c5 a5 21.Rab1 g6 22.Qb5 axb4
23.axb4 Bg7 24.g3 (80.453.125.079) 8830

47/64 152:30 +0.24-- 11.a3 Bd6 (80.803.154.964) 8830

47/64 153:29 +0.17-- 11.a3 Bd6 (81.338.113.067) 8832

47/64 154:17 +0.24++ 11.a3 (81.775.651.632) 8833

47/68 169:06 +0.28 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6
17.Qc1 Qf8 18.c5 Bc7 19.Qc2 a5 20.b4 Qg7
21.Rfe1 f5 22.Bd3 Bd7 23.bxa5 Bxa5
24.Reb1 (89.811.569.898) 8851

48/68 206:48 +0.21-- 11.a3 Bd6 (110.419.508.428) 8898

48/68 257:28 +0.14-- 11.a3 Bd6 (138.135.695.883) 8941

48/68 259:18 +0.21++ 11.a3 (139.138.523.932) 8943

48/68 261:54 +0.27 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 dxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6
17.Qc1 Qf8 18.c5 Bc7 19.Qc2 f5
20.Bd3 b6 21.b4 a5 22.Rfb1 Ba6
23.Bxa6 Rxa6 24.g3 (140.548.805.805) 8943

49/68 267:59 +0.19-- 11.a3 Bd6 (143.811.998.044) 8943

49/68 269:29 +0.27++ 11.a3 (144.612.856.113) 8943

49/68 271:31 +0.19-- 11.a3 Bd6 (145.699.746.688) 8943

49/68 287:44 +0.28++ 11.a3 (154.451.725.409) 8946

49/72 301:12 +0.20 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 dxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6
17.Qc1 Qf8 18.c5 Bc7 19.Qc2 a5 20.g3 f5
21.Bd3 b6 22.b4 h5 23.Be2 bxc5
24.bxc5 (161.562.213.260) 8939

50/72 318:56 +0.27++ 11.a3 (171.223.504.727) 8947

50/72 342:05 +0.20-- 11.a3 Bd6 (183.840.343.393) 8956

50/72 345:39 +0.27++ 11.a3 (185.781.500.958) 8957

50/72 397:51 +0.18-- 11.a3 Bd6 (214.039.145.546) 8966

50/73 418:58 +0.30++ 11.a3 (225.521.566.437) 8971

50/74 440:21 +0.24 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 dxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6
17.Qc1 Qf8 18.c5 Bc7 19.Qc2 Bd7
20.Bh7+ Kh8 21.Bd3 Qg7 22.g3 f5
23.Qd2 Kg8 24.Rfe1 (237.322.246.167) 8982

51/74 458:38 +0.21 11.a3 Bd6 12.e4 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 dxe4
14.Bxe4 Nf6 15.Bg5 h6 16.Bxf6 gxf6
17.Qc1 Qf8 18.c5 Bc7 19.Qc2 f5
20.Bd3 a5 21.b4 Bd7 22.Rfb1 b6
23.Bf1 Be8 24.Qc3 (247.248.515.103) 8984

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Final position of your analyzes:
[d]r7/1R1nkpp1/2p1p2p/2P5/3P4/4P3/3B1PPP/5K2 w - - 3 28
It's a relatively forced line for white but Stockfish shows nearly +2 in the final position of your analyzes.

49/89 1:02:29 221.124.736k 58.975k +1,84 28.e4 Ra1+ 29.Ke2 Ra4 30.Kd3 f6 31.Rc7 Ra6 32.Bf4 e5 33.dxe5 Kd8 34.exf6 gxf6 35.Ke2 Nxc5 36.Rh7 Nxe4 37.Rxh6 Nc3+ 38.Kf3 Ke7 39.Be3 Ra4 40.h4 Nd5 41.Rh7+ Ke6 42.g3 Ra3 43.Ra7 Rc3 44.h5 Nxe3 45.fxe3 Rc1 46.g4 Rh1 47.Kg2 Rh4 48.Kg3 Rh1 49.Kf4 Rf1+ 50.Ke4 Rh1 51.Rc7 Kd6 52.Rc8 Kd7 53.Rf8 Ke6 54.Rg8 c5 55.Re8+ Kf7 56.Rc8 Rg1 57.Kf4 Rf1+ 58.Kg3 Rc1 59.Rc7+ Ke6 60.h6 Rh1 61.h7 Kd5

and this is where your line ends:

[d]8/2R4P/5p2/2pk4/6P1/4P1K1/8/7r w - - 0 35

and obvious draw for me, fortress.

SF score is high, because of the advanced passer on h7 and the rook on the 7th rank, but edge a/h pawns in the eg never promote, especially in rook endgames.

so, we have a forced line, which ends in a draw.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

ok, I analysed it, and there is this long, and completely forced line, ending with a draw:

[pgn][Event "Blitz 1m"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2017.06.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT"]
[Black "myself, owner"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1br2k1/1p1n1ppp/p1p1pn2/2Pp4/3P4/qPN1PN2/2BB1PPP/3Q1RK1 b - - 0 3"]
[PlyCount "29"]
[TimeControl "60"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 3... Ne4 {0} 4. Bxe4 {1.20/22 6} dxe4 {2} 5. Ng5 {0.94/22 0}
h6 {2} 6. Ngxe4 {1.39/19 1} a5 {4} 7. Qc2 {1.16/24 2} a4 {1.08/25 1} 8. bxa4 {
0.97/23 1} Qb4 {1.09/25 1} 9. Nd6 {1.21/24 0} Qa5 {1.10/25 0} 10. Nd5 {1.14/25
1} Qxa4 {1.19/26 0} 11. Ne7+ {1.02/26 0} Kf8 {1.02/26 0} 12. Qxa4 {1.00/23 0}
Rxa4 {1.10/27 0} 13. Nexc8 {1.04/25 0} Ra8 {0.98/22 0} 14. Rb1 {1.10/25 0}
Rdxc8 {1.02/24 0} 15. Nxc8 {1.03/23 0} Rxc8 {0.88/22 0} 16. Rxb7 {0.94/21 0}
Ra8 {1.08/23 0} 17. Kf1 {0.95/23 0} Ke7 {0.98/20 0} *

[/pgn]

completely forced, completely drawn, white can not win that, too few material.

capturing with the knight on e4 first is even worse, complete equality.

so, seemingly, a3 indeed only leads to a quick and straightforward draw.

why choose a straightforward draw in 15 moves in a forced line, when you have much better?

therefore, I have evry right in the world to suppose c5 is much better than a3.

looks completely lost to me and near zugzwang after 18. e4! Kd8 19. Bf4

fully drawn, too few material left.

look at Andreas' output, too, but I guess there are even stronger lines for black.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

all black pawns are on squares opposite the colour of the bishop, not attackable in any way.
c6 and e6 pawns constitute a valuable asset, in stopping any possible advance of the only unopposed/passer-likely white pawn on the d file.
black pawn structure is very compact, no weaknesses, no distant pawns on any of the wings.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

@lyudmil -- don't know why you're running less than a second unless you simply want to confirm your own biases instead of finding any truth.

i'm not going to prove a win for a3 or the position after Bxa3 because i don't care & i never said either is a win. i said its a brilliant move & to be honest, after analysing (the end of) your alternative c5 line at least, am more inclined to agree.

your line leaves the white king extremely vulnerable & black gathers a quick kingside attack. it is absolutely advantage black & you are showing no evidence of any line that gives black an advantage other than your supposed best one. you continue to imply that if black can possibly draw, it means the move is bad, which ignores the very, very likely probability that the position is drawn before any move by white is made.

quite probably the position before a3 is objectively drawn, but, black has very hard time at it.

I browsed through the game, and Carlsen seemingly made some inaccuracies, costing him another 20cps or so. + white's first move advantage, that gets dangerously close to the losing margin in the mg.

I already proved a3 is a forced draw, so why insist further?

c5, on the other hand, gives white excellent winning chances.

I guess you assess incorrectly the end position of my c5 variation. as said, SF and Komodo will favour black by a margin for quite some time, but that is only an optical illusion. white gets quite some edge with time, the pair of bishops make the king safe, strong central connected pawns, nothing to be afraid of. with time, black attack will evaporate, and white will get the upper hand.

I already checked that with lines.

on the other hand, if f2-f3/f2-f4 is not played on time, white is simply lost, I do not need any analysis to prove it, as I have seen such clamped positions a million times, SF and Komodo always think the side with the semi-backward shelter pawn is better, and SF and Komodo are always proven wrong. no need to look one more time.

you should understand that 100cps eg score might frequently be logically significantly lower than 40cps mg score, because of the available remaining resources to win the game, so, it is better to stick with a mg position with small plus, but rich opportunities, rather than go for one deep into the eg with large plus score, but too few opportunities to develop it.

that is a subconscious choice, you know. Ne4 is better than any other possible black reply for the very same reason: it is a subconscious and very logical choice - trading one of white's pieces, so that possibility to trap the queen completely vanishes. black is the exchange and pawn up, after all.

[Jeroen]

no one has said a3 wins on the spot, but that seems to be your criteria w/r/t its merits. that, or you truly believe yourself to have more insight into the position in 5 minutes than aronion, carlsen, svidler, top-end machines, & everyone else in the world. either way you walk alone here. i suppose you find that noble, or something.

+1

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

no one has said a3 wins on the spot, but that seems to be your criteria w/r/t its merits. that, or you truly believe yourself to have more insight into the position in 5 minutes than aronion, carlsen, svidler, top-end machines, & everyone else in the world. either way you walk alone here. i suppose you find that noble, or something.

+1

still, they do not have definitive conclusions, but I have.

[Jeroen]

Yes, you are a better player than Aronian and your analysis is better than Aronian's, who is one of the best prepared players in the world.

Keep on dreaming.

[Jeroen]

11.a3 was a huge surprise for Carlsen and had many pitfalls. Not easy with only 1:40 for 40 moves to select the best lines here. So in practical play between humans 10.a3! is surely for preference (and the game result proves it).

11.c5 is a typical engine blocking move (grab space) and I can imagine Aronian will not like it. 11... e5 is not forced, black could also try the typical undermining move 11... b6. After 36 ply SF on my slow notebook just gives 0.06 in white's favour after this move.

Aronian is the best prepared player in the world, with original ideas and deep insights. If 11.c5 is really best - what you suggest - he would have played it. It is rather odd to see a 2180 player claiming he knows better than Aronian, who probably has spent a huge amount of time on this position.