The CCC challenge: Possioto vs Tsvetkov

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: the Bd6 line

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:40 am

waiting for input here:

[d]r1br2k1/1pbnqppp/p1p1pn2/2Pp4/3P4/PPN1PN2/2BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 3

what do your engines say on that?
what is the performance in terms of stats?

better or worse than after Ba3?

because, my results are very consistent: over 50% white wins, the rest draws with big white advantage.

did not your engines claim this line was better for black?

did not they assess it with very small white advantage?

are you engines and you so-called 'high-end' machines capable only in very simple eg positions?

where is your output, Andreas?

where are your phylosophical conclusions, Jeroen?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: first fortress

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:44 am

MikeB wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[pgn][Event "Blitz 1m"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2017.06.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT"]
[Black "myself, owner"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1n3k2/5pp1/2p1p2p/2P5/3P4/4P3/3B1PPP/6K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "40"]
[TimeControl "60"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. e4 {1.23/17 0} f5 {1.29/16 0} 2. e5 {1.37/24 0} Kf7 {1.39/
23 0} 3. f3 {1.36/27 0} g5 {1.35/26 0} 4. Kf2 {1.44/25 0} Kg6 {1.47/21 0} 5.
Ke3 {1.42/25 0} Kf7 {1.47/24 0} 6. h3 {1.49/23 0} Kg6 {1.39/25 0} 7. Ke2 {1.40/
25 0} Nd7 {1.40/27 0} 8. Kd3 {1.34/25 0} Nb8 {1.33/29 0} 9. Kc4 {1.33/29 0} Na6
{1.33/31 0} 10. Ba5 {1.33/26 0} Kf7 {1.33/33 0} 11. Kd3 {1.33/31 0} Kg7 {1.33/
32 0} 12. g4 {7} f4 {1.15/28 1} 13. Kc3 {1.46/28 0} Kf7 {1.15/29 0} 14. Bd8 {
1.08/31 0} Ke8 {1.10/36 0} 15. Bf6 {1.08/33 0} Kf7 {1.08/35 0} 16. h4 {1.08/33
0} gxh4 {1.77/33 1} 17. Bxh4 {1.07/34 0} Nc7 {1.07/34 0} 18. Bf2 {1.07/33 0}
Nd5+ {1.07/33 0} 19. Kb3 {1.07/38 0} Ke7 {1.07/36 0} 20. Be1 {1.07/39 0} Kf7 {
1.07/40 0} 1/2-1/2

[/pgn]

first fortress position:

[d]8/5k2/2p1p2p/2PnP3/3P1pP1/1K3P2/8/4B3 w - - 0 21
you will never get the truth with 1 minute blitz games in this position - way too complicated... lines presented are full of holes, but I think you know that and you're just having fun :D
not having fun at all, I am quite serious, drawing lines abund, this simple eg, both its rook and non-rook versions, are definitely the much better choice for black next to a Bd6 retreat, with the board full of pieces.

I am happy Carlsen shared my choice too. :)

do you think Carlsen is that stupid?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: first fortress

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:50 am

fastgm wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[pgn][Event "Blitz 1m"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2017.06.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT"]
[Black "myself, owner"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1n3k2/5pp1/2p1p2p/2P5/3P4/4P3/3B1PPP/6K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "40"]
[TimeControl "60"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. e4 {1.23/17 0} f5 {1.29/16 0} 2. e5 {1.37/24 0} Kf7 {1.39/
23 0} 3. f3 {1.36/27 0} g5 {1.35/26 0} 4. Kf2 {1.44/25 0} Kg6 {1.47/21 0} 5.
Ke3 {1.42/25 0} Kf7 {1.47/24 0} 6. h3 {1.49/23 0} Kg6 {1.39/25 0} 7. Ke2 {1.40/
25 0} Nd7 {1.40/27 0} 8. Kd3 {1.34/25 0} Nb8 {1.33/29 0} 9. Kc4 {1.33/29 0} Na6
{1.33/31 0} 10. Ba5 {1.33/26 0} Kf7 {1.33/33 0} 11. Kd3 {1.33/31 0} Kg7 {1.33/
32 0} 12. g4 {7} f4 {1.15/28 1} 13. Kc3 {1.46/28 0} Kf7 {1.15/29 0} 14. Bd8 {
1.08/31 0} Ke8 {1.10/36 0} 15. Bf6 {1.08/33 0} Kf7 {1.08/35 0} 16. h4 {1.08/33
0} gxh4 {1.77/33 1} 17. Bxh4 {1.07/34 0} Nc7 {1.07/34 0} 18. Bf2 {1.07/33 0}
Nd5+ {1.07/33 0} 19. Kb3 {1.07/38 0} Ke7 {1.07/36 0} 20. Be1 {1.07/39 0} Kf7 {
1.07/40 0} 1/2-1/2

[/pgn]

first fortress position:

[d]8/5k2/2p1p2p/2PnP3/3P1pP1/1K3P2/8/4B3 w - - 0 21
This isn't a fortress as I showed you in this topic:
http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 34&t=64258

After 1.e4 f5 follows 2.Bf4 Nd7 and 3.d5!! 1-0
It's only a transposition of moves.

Andreas
you showed nothing, those are different lines.

you just looked at your computer screen, and copy-pasted SF output.

why are you afraid to analyse the much more complicated Bd6 line, where your engine's assessment after couple of hours analysis is quite wrong?

this line is vital for the conclusion if a3 capture was forced.

and again, please do not forget, that your first SF assessment on the original position ended with a DRAW!

have not we concluded the game, or what? :)

did not I already win?

or, you and your SF have the right to make mistakes, but I am not entitled to do that?

why so?
I am a human, after all.

IQ
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Thank you all!

Post by IQ » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:51 am

As Lyudmil seems to have no intention to reply to my last move e4 (judging from his ramblings) I propose a community vote on the challenge:

1) Lyudmil Tsvetkov lost the challenge
2) No, give him more time to come up with a move

If the community votes that he lost, the result of the vote should be the last post in this thread, the thread should be locked and made sticky for 6 month. Can somebody impartial set this up? Moderation?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: second fortress

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:54 am

fastgm wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[pgn][Event "Blitz 1m"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2017.06.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "SF 8, owner"]
[Black "myself"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1n3k2/5pp1/2p1p2p/2P5/3P4/4P3/3B1PPP/6K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "64"]
[TimeControl "60"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. Ba5 {0} f6 {1.20/23 4} 2. f3 {1.21/21 0} Kf7 {1.18/22 0}
3. Kf2 {1.27/21 0} e5 {1.02/24 0} 4. dxe5 {1.10/25 0} fxe5 {1.21/24 0} 5. Ke2 {
1.07/27 0} Nd7 {1.16/24 0} 6. Bb6 {1.00/23 0} g5 {1.06/23 0} 7. Kd3 {0.97/24 0}
Ke6 {0.94/22 0} 8. Kc4 {1.05/24 0} Nf6 {1.09/23 0} 9. Bd8 {1.05/27 0} Nd5 {1.
13/26 0} 10. Kd3 {1.04/29 0} Nb4+ {1.01/28 0} 11. Kc3 {1.04/27 0} Nd5+ {1.13/
25 0} 12. Kd2 {0.99/29 0} Kd7 {1.13/23 0} 13. Ba5 {0.99/27 0} h5 {1.11/26 0}
14. e4 {1.20/27 0} Nf4 {1.04/28 0} 15. g3 {1.01/29 0} Ng6 {1.08/27 0} 16. Ke3 {
1.04/29 0} Nf8 {1.06/27 0} 17. Bc3 {1.17/25 0} Ng6 {1.32/27 1} 18. Bd2 {1.12/
27 0} Ke7 {1.39/24 0} 19. Kf2 {1.47/29 0} Kf6 {1.43/30 0} 20. Ba5 {1.43/32 0}
Ke7 {1.43/31 0} 21. Bc7 {1.50/29 0} Kd7 {1.50/31 0} 22. Bd6 {1.43/32 0} Ke6 {
1.43/35 0} 23. Ke3 {1.51/28 0} Kf7 {1.50/32 0} 24. Kd2 {1.50/33 0} h4 {1.50/30
0} 25. Bc7 {1.50/30 0} hxg3 {1.50/36 0} 26. hxg3 {1.50/38 0} Ke7 {1.50/31 0}
27. Kc3 {1.50/36 0} Kd7 {0} 28. Bd6 {1.50/41 2} Ke6 {1.50/45 0} 29. Kd3 {1.50/
46 0} Kf6 {1.50/34 0} 30. Ke3 {1.58/35 0} Ke6 {1.58/34 0} 31. Kf2 {1.62/32 0}
Kf7 {1.52/34 0} 32. Kg1 {1.52/35 0} Ke6 {1.52/32 0} 1/2-1/2

[/pgn]

[d]8/8/2pBk1n1/2P1p1p1/4P3/5PP1/8/6K1 w - - 0 33
Here even the final fortress position is won for white :-)
Until now I thought you were an excellent chess player and analyst... :roll:

[d]8/8/2pBk1n1/2P1p1p1/4P3/5PP1/8/6K1 w - - 0 33

McBrain 2.5 64 BMI2:

64/113 13:04 67.675.363k 86.233k +15,70 33.Kh2 Nh8 34.Kh3 Kf6 35.Kg4 Nf7 36.Bf8 Kg6 37.Be7 Nh6+ 38.Kh3 Nf7 39.Kg2 Kh6 40.Kf1 Nh8 41.Bf6 Ng6 42.g4 Nf4 43.Bxe5 Ne6 44.Bd6 Kg7 45.Ke2 Kf7 46.Kd3 Ke8 47.Kc3 Kd7 48.Kc4 Nd8 49.Kb4 Kc8 50.Be5 Ne6 51.Kc4 Kd7 52.Bd4 Nd8 53.Kb4 Kc8 54.Kc3 Kd7 55.Be3 Nf7 56.Kd3 Ne5+ 57.Ke2 Nf7 58.Bd4 Nd8 59.Ke3 Ke8 60.f4 gxf4+ 61.Kxf4 Ne6+ 62.Ke5 Kf7 63.Be3 Nf8 64.g5 Ke7 65.Kf5 Kf7 66.Bf4 Ng6 67.Bd6 Nh4+ 68.Kg4 Ng2 69.Kh5 Ne3 70.g6+ Kg7 71.Kg5 Nc2 72.Be5+ Kg8 73.Kf6 Ne3 74.Bf4 Ng4+ 75.Ke6 Kf8 76.Kf5 Nf2 77.Be3 Nd3 78.Bd4 Ne1 79.Be5

Komodo 11.01 64-bit:

57 28:52 140.023.268k 80.821k +4,16 33.Kh2 Nh8 34.Kh3 Nf7 35.Bf8 Kf6 36.Kg4 Kg6 37.Be7 Nh6+ 38.Kh3 Nf7 39.Kg2 Nh8 40.Kf2 Kh6 41.Ke3 Ng6 42.Bd8 Nf8 43.Bc7 Ng6 44.g4 Nf4 45.Bxe5 Ne6 46.Bd4 Kg6 47.Kd3 Kf7 48.Kc3 Ke8 49.Be3 Kd7 50.Kb4 Kc8 51.Ka5 Kb7 52.Bf2 Nf8 53.Bg1 Ne6 54.Be3 Ka7 55.Kb4 Kb7 56.Kc3 Ka6 57.Kc4 Ka5 58.e5 Ka4 59.Kd3 Kb4 60.Ke4 Kc4 61.Kf5 Kd5 62.Bxg5 Nxc5 63.Be3
look at your lines, Andreas.

50 moves long, 100 plies!

certainly, the engine could have gone wrong somewhere.

anything can happen in 100 plies' time.

but, even if not so, such positions would have been much more preferable trying to hold than the positions arising after Bd6 c5 e4, where white is usually winning with +500-600cps scores.

why are you not mentioning that?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Lyudmil on his way to a forfeit?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:58 am

Jeroen wrote:
Perhaps we must just let the case to rest and try to ignore his bloating statements
Yeah, that might be best. It is a pity this site doesn't have an ignore button.
you are ignoring my Bd6 line, where I again proved I have the better assessment.

but then if anything, you are the only one to blame for this hullabaloo, as you started the thread.

you very much envy me, right?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Possioto vs Tsvetkov: 28.e4 (Tsvetkov to move)

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:02 am

Laskos wrote:
Jeroen wrote:Your words: "DRAW. Show me a possible winning continuation, and I will refute it."

28.e4 has been played, now it is your turn. Please post your move (replying to this posting) and prove to us that you can make a draw.
You probably don't know Lyudmil. He posted his "games" at blitz TC which he won against engines with a pawn handicap (IIRC). Even Nakamura couldn't achieve that in 100 games. And similar air venting, with a particular tone of of a pathological air venter. I hate when he posts in my threads, as those have good chances to be derailed to such things.
did not it ever occur to you I might be better than Nakamura?

you will hate my posting in your threads, of course, as my assessment is frequently much superior to yours.

last example: the KID thread.

kinderchocolate
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:55 am
Full name: Ted Wong
Contact:

Re: Possioto vs Tsvetkov: 28.e4 (Tsvetkov to move)

Post by kinderchocolate » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:03 am

"... better than Nakamura ..."

: -) You are funny.

"...I propose a community vote on the challenge..."

I vote (1).

Jeroen
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Thank you all!

Post by Jeroen » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:08 am

My vote is 1), Tsvetkov loses the challenge.

Because it is 100% clear to me that he will never accept it, because he knows he will lose.

Jeroen
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Possioto vs Tsvetkov: 28.e4 (Tsvetkov to move)

Post by Jeroen » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:11 am

did not it ever occur to you I might be better than Nakamura?
LOL

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