Is this position lost?

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Nordlandia
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Location: Sortland, Norway

Is this position lost?

Post by Nordlandia »

For black.

[d]2rq2k1/1p4pp/p2p2b1/8/1P1Np3/2Pn4/1P3PPP/R2QR1K1 w - - 2 24
Terry McCracken
Posts: 16465
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Location: Canada

Re: Is this position lost?

Post by Terry McCracken »

Nordlandia wrote:For black.

[d]2rq2k1/1p4pp/p2p2b1/8/1P1Np3/2Pn4/1P3PPP/R2QR1K1 w - - 2 24
At a glance, it appears White is in trouble. The Black Night is a monster.

White's queenside pawns are sick, hole on c4, etc. White needs tactics to extricate himself.
Terry McCracken
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Nordlandia
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Re: Is this position lost?

Post by Nordlandia »

Terry McCracken: yes that octopus do provide some compensation for the sacrificed exchange. Yet it isn't enough compensation.

I'll say that the position isn't neccesarely lost but white has much better chances. +1.25 ±

[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "i5-5200U | 2-Core | Probing 5-Men Syzygy"]
[Date "2017.09.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "komodo-11.2.2-64bit"]
[Black "Stockfish_17090912_x64_bmi2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "2rq2k1/1p4pp/p2p2b1/8/1P1Np3/2Pn4/1P3PPP/R2QR1K1 w - - 2 1"]
[PlyCount "94"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[TimeControl "2700+15"]

1. Re2 {+1.15/27 71s} Qg5 {-1.35/28 99s} 2. Re3 {+1.14/29 69s} d5 {-1.32/29 36s}
3. Qa4 {+1.20/27 88s} Qf6 {-1.47/32 162s} 4. Rf1 {+1.05/26 35s}
Qf7 {-1.49/31 109s} 5. Qa2 {+1.22/28 68s} Kh8 {-1.60/31 82s}
6. b5 {+1.29/30 131s} axb5 {-1.48/31 60s} 7. Nxb5 {+1.33/30 52s}
Rf8 {-1.35/32 38s} 8. Nd4 {+1.31/30 184s} h6 {-1.51/31 9.8s}
9. Qb3 {+1.28/30 61s} Ra8 {-1.27/31 31s} 10. f4 {+1.32/30 110s}
Nxf4 {-1.27/30 13s} 11. g3 {+1.49/30 47s} Nh3+ {-1.30/33 60s}
12. Kg2 {+1.30/30 30s} Qd7 {-1.25/33 42s} 13. Qb5 {+1.41/30 59s}
Qxb5 {-1.15/34 75s} 14. Nxb5 {+1.29/30 40s} Ng5 {-1.27/32 10s}
15. Nc7 {+1.50/30 71s} Ra2 {-1.09/31 62s} 16. Nxd5 {+1.69/29 50s}
Rxb2+ {-1.50/28 23s} 17. Rf2 {+1.77/29 24s} Rb5 {-1.33/31 38s}
18. c4 {+1.81/27 34s} Rb1 {-2.26/35 266s} 19. Rf8+ {+1.92/29 46s}
Kh7 {-2.30/1 0s} 20. Nf4 {+1.88/29 38s} Rb2+ {-2.30/35 146s}
21. Re2 {+2.01/28 32s} Rxe2+ {-2.25/36 61s} 22. Nxe2 {+2.17/30 26s}
e3 {-2.45/30 12s} 23. Nf4 {+2.16/30 31s} Bf7 {-2.46/38 133s}
24. Rc8 {+2.16/34 49s} Ne4 {-2.15/34 41s} 25. Rc7 {+2.12/34 56s}
Kg8 {-2.17/31 9.1s} 26. Kf3 {+2.15/34 60s} Nd2+ {-2.40/39 98s}
27. Kxe3 {+2.23/33 42s} Nxc4+ {-2.40/40 25s} 28. Kd4 {+2.25/34 43s}
b5 {-2.46/41 65s} 29. Nd3 {+2.26/34 54s} Be8 {-2.17/33 31s}
30. Re7 {+2.29/34 41s} Kf8 {-2.19/31 11s} 31. Rb7 {+2.35/34 28s}
Nd6 {-2.46/38 99s} 32. Rc7 {+2.36/31 31s} b4 {-2.46/40 49s}
33. Kd5 {+2.42/36 83s} Nb5 {-2.54/40 129s} 34. Rb7 {+2.66/36 184s}
b3 {-2.80/39 108s} 35. Kc5 {+2.71/31 24s} Nc3 {-3.40/40 228s}
36. Rxb3 {+2.54/31 36s} Ne4+ {-3.40/39 10s} 37. Kd4 {+2.61/31 26s}
Nf6 {-3.40/44 47s} 38. Nf4 {+2.79/31 32s} Kg8 {-3.40/41 37s}
39. Rb8 {+2.87/35 34s} Kh7 {-3.73/43 91s} 40. Rb7 {+3.04/36 50s}
Bd7 {-3.81/46 74s} 41. h3 {+3.52/33 43s} Bc6 {-4.75/47 196s}
42. Ra7 {+4.71/32 93s} Kg8 {-5.40/39 51s} 43. Ne6 {+5.82/30 75s}
Bd7 {-5.47/42 95s} 44. Ke5 {+10.89/35 72s} Bxe6 {-6.99/42 54s}
45. Kxe6 {+250.00/35 6.0s} Nh5 {-7.14/45 4.6s} 46. Ra3 {+250.00/42 4.6s}
Nf6 {-23.68/47 118s} 47. Rf3 {+250.00/37 9.4s}
Ne4 {-100.50/41 27s, White wins by adjudication} 1-0[/pgn]

Brief lichess analysis - https://lichess.org/ZsXv0UnY
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Is this position lost?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Nordlandia wrote:For black.

[d]2rq2k1/1p4pp/p2p2b1/8/1P1Np3/2Pn4/1P3PPP/R2QR1K1 w - - 2 24
borderline one.

I guess, you will need more than 100 moves to win that with white
with perfect play, if won at all.

in your game, SF supposedly did not find all the best defences.
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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Is this position lost?

Post by Graham Banks »

Nordlandia wrote:For black.

[d]2rq2k1/1p4pp/p2p2b1/8/1P1Np3/2Pn4/1P3PPP/R2QR1K1 w - - 2 24
There are chances for both sides.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Nordlandia
Posts: 2821
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Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Is this position lost?

Post by Nordlandia »

Considering SF9 Dev on 2-Core Pentium E5200 was able to defeat K11.2.2 on 8-Core i7-5960X. I think its safe to assume that position is likely lost.

TC:15m+15s

[pgn][Event "EXPERT-PC, Rapid 15m+15s"]
[Site "EXPERT-PC"]
[Date "2017.09.13"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish 120917 64"]
[Black "Komodo 11.2.2 64-bit"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "1.37;1.16"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2rq2k1/1p4pp/p2p2b1/8/1P1Np3/2Pn4/1P3PPP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[TimeControl "900+15"]

1. Re2 {1.37/26 40 Both last book move} Qg5 {1.16/29 47} 2. Re3 {1.58/25 1} d5
{1.12/29 49} 3. Qa4 {1.42/28 2} Qf6 {1.21/30 60} 4. Rf1 {1.41/32 0} Rd8 {
1.20/31 53} 5. Qc2 {1.74/28 1 (Qa5)} Rf8 {1.28/30 55 (h6)} 6. Qd2 {1.70/30 55}
h6 {1.21/32 56 (Rf7)} 7. f3 {1.62/29 26} Rf7 {1.36/32 26 (b6)} 8. g3 {1.58/28
25} Qg5 {1.46/30 27} 9. fxe4 {1.59/31 0} Rxf1+ {1.43/29 18} 10. Kxf1 {1.75/30
26} dxe4 {1.46/30 0} 11. Re2 {1.91/28 32 (Kg1)} Qf6+ {1.46/31 82 (Qd5)} 12. Kg1
{2.05/27 56 (Kg2)} Qd6 {1.58/31 40} 13. Qe3 {2.27/27 38} Qd7 {1.75/31 0} 14.
Kg2 {2.32/24 9 (Rd2)} b6 {1.96/32 133 (Qd6)} 15. Ne6 {2.28/29 108} Bf5 {
1.86/33 0} 16. Nf4 {2.34/29 27} Qc6 {2.00/35 16} 17. Qd4 {2.47/31 0} Nxf4+ {
2.02/36 30} 18. gxf4 {2.48/31 6} Qg6+ {2.10/37 42} 19. Kf1 {2.57/33 0} b5 {
2.14/38 59} 20. Re3 {2.66/35 0 (Rd2)} Qg4 {2.14/36 46} 21. Qd6 {2.69/34 0} Qh5
{2.25/33 32} 22. Qd2 {2.94/33 80} Qf7 {2.60/35 0 (g6)} 23. Rg3 {3.10/34 54} Kh7
{2.65/38 0 (Qa2)} 24. Kf2 {3.24/34 88 (Ke2)} Qa2 {3.23/37 274 (Qh5)} 25. Rg1 {
3.56/34 68} Qf7 {3.26/36 0 (e3+)} 26. Qd4 {3.70/31 44} Bg6 {3.25/34 0 (e3+)}
27. Ke3 {3.86/31 26} Bf5 {3.32/35 0} 28. h4 {4.05/35 74 (Rg2)} Bg6 {4.14/30 57}
29. Rg3 {4.26/36 0 (b3)} Kh8 {4.43/31 74 (Bf5)} 30. b3 {5.02/26 33} Bh7 {
4.57/34 34 (Kg8)} 31. h5 {5.74/31 47} Bf5 {4.77/34 0} 32. c4 {5.87/28 13} Bh7 {
5.08/33 1 (Kh7)} 33. Qc3 {6.30/29 38} bxc4 {5.22/34 0} 34. bxc4 {6.41/32 22}
Bf5 {6.02/33 24 (Qd7)} 35. c5 {6.83/32 21} Kg8 {7.89/30 35 (Qa7)} 36. c6 {
7.30/31 24} Kh7 {8.86/30 39 (Qa7+)} 37. c7 {8.36/28 27} Bc8 {9.23/29 14 (Qg8)}
38. Kxe4 {8.94/28 34} 1-0[/pgn]
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Nordlandia
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Re: Is this position lost?

Post by Nordlandia »

Another borderline position!

[d]r3k1n1/1p4bp/4p1p1/3p4/p2P4/8/PP3PPP/R1B2RK1 w q - 0 18

[pgn][Event "EU-Cup 16th"]
[Site "Neum"]
[Date "2000.09.30"]
[Round "7.3"]
[White "Timman, Jan H"]
[Black "Kortschnoj, Viktor Lvovich"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2639"]
[BlackElo "2620"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r3kbn1/1p4Qp/4p1p1/3p4/p2P4/8/PP3PPP/R1B2RK1 b q - 0 17"]
[PlyCount "21"]
[EventDate "2000.09.24"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "7"]
[EventCountry "BIH"]
[SourceTitle "CBM 080"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2001.01.25"]
[SourceVersion "1"]
[SourceVersionDate "2001.01.25"]
[SourceQuality "1"]
[WhiteTeam "Breda"]
[BlackTeam "St Petersburg"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "NED"]
[BlackTeamCountry "RUS"]

{[#]} 17... Bxg7 18. Be3 Ne7 19. Rac1 Nc6 20. Rfd1 Ra6 21. Kf1 Rb6 22. Rc2 Kd7
23. Ke2 Rb4 24. Rd3 Bxd4 25. Bd2 Rxb2 26. Rxc6 bxc6 27. Rxd4 Rxa2 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Is this position lost?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Nordlandia wrote:Considering SF9 Dev on 2-Core Pentium E5200 was able to defeat K11.2.2 on 8-Core i7-5960X. I think its safe to assume that position is likely lost.

TC:15m+15s

[pgn][Event "EXPERT-PC, Rapid 15m+15s"]
[Site "EXPERT-PC"]
[Date "2017.09.13"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish 120917 64"]
[Black "Komodo 11.2.2 64-bit"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "1.37;1.16"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2rq2k1/1p4pp/p2p2b1/8/1P1Np3/2Pn4/1P3PPP/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[TimeControl "900+15"]

1. Re2 {1.37/26 40 Both last book move} Qg5 {1.16/29 47} 2. Re3 {1.58/25 1} d5
{1.12/29 49} 3. Qa4 {1.42/28 2} Qf6 {1.21/30 60} 4. Rf1 {1.41/32 0} Rd8 {
1.20/31 53} 5. Qc2 {1.74/28 1 (Qa5)} Rf8 {1.28/30 55 (h6)} 6. Qd2 {1.70/30 55}
h6 {1.21/32 56 (Rf7)} 7. f3 {1.62/29 26} Rf7 {1.36/32 26 (b6)} 8. g3 {1.58/28
25} Qg5 {1.46/30 27} 9. fxe4 {1.59/31 0} Rxf1+ {1.43/29 18} 10. Kxf1 {1.75/30
26} dxe4 {1.46/30 0} 11. Re2 {1.91/28 32 (Kg1)} Qf6+ {1.46/31 82 (Qd5)} 12. Kg1
{2.05/27 56 (Kg2)} Qd6 {1.58/31 40} 13. Qe3 {2.27/27 38} Qd7 {1.75/31 0} 14.
Kg2 {2.32/24 9 (Rd2)} b6 {1.96/32 133 (Qd6)} 15. Ne6 {2.28/29 108} Bf5 {
1.86/33 0} 16. Nf4 {2.34/29 27} Qc6 {2.00/35 16} 17. Qd4 {2.47/31 0} Nxf4+ {
2.02/36 30} 18. gxf4 {2.48/31 6} Qg6+ {2.10/37 42} 19. Kf1 {2.57/33 0} b5 {
2.14/38 59} 20. Re3 {2.66/35 0 (Rd2)} Qg4 {2.14/36 46} 21. Qd6 {2.69/34 0} Qh5
{2.25/33 32} 22. Qd2 {2.94/33 80} Qf7 {2.60/35 0 (g6)} 23. Rg3 {3.10/34 54} Kh7
{2.65/38 0 (Qa2)} 24. Kf2 {3.24/34 88 (Ke2)} Qa2 {3.23/37 274 (Qh5)} 25. Rg1 {
3.56/34 68} Qf7 {3.26/36 0 (e3+)} 26. Qd4 {3.70/31 44} Bg6 {3.25/34 0 (e3+)}
27. Ke3 {3.86/31 26} Bf5 {3.32/35 0} 28. h4 {4.05/35 74 (Rg2)} Bg6 {4.14/30 57}
29. Rg3 {4.26/36 0 (b3)} Kh8 {4.43/31 74 (Bf5)} 30. b3 {5.02/26 33} Bh7 {
4.57/34 34 (Kg8)} 31. h5 {5.74/31 47} Bf5 {4.77/34 0} 32. c4 {5.87/28 13} Bh7 {
5.08/33 1 (Kh7)} 33. Qc3 {6.30/29 38} bxc4 {5.22/34 0} 34. bxc4 {6.41/32 22}
Bf5 {6.02/33 24 (Qd7)} 35. c5 {6.83/32 21} Kg8 {7.89/30 35 (Qa7)} 36. c6 {
7.30/31 24} Kh7 {8.86/30 39 (Qa7+)} 37. c7 {8.36/28 27} Bc8 {9.23/29 14 (Qg8)}
38. Kxe4 {8.94/28 34} 1-0[/pgn]
might be lost, but black has better with h7-h5-h4, Rf8-f4-g4, something like that.