Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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mclane
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by mclane » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:53 am

How can it be that a top chess program that was made by men gets completely crushed by an engine that was designed by a machine ?!

The human made chess program plays machine chess and materialistic while the machine made engine plays idealistic.

It needs a machine to tell us about steinitz, Tal and nimzowitsch.
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Luis Babboni
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by Luis Babboni » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:41 pm

"...NASA will host a media teleconference at 1 p.m. EST Thursday, Dec. 14, to announce the latest discovery made by its planet-hunting Kepler space telescope. The discovery was made by researchers using machine learning from Google. Machine learning is an approach to artificial intelligence, and demonstrates new ways of analyzing Kepler data...."

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa ... -discovery

shrapnel
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by shrapnel » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:11 pm

hgm wrote:You really have no clue whatsoever what you are talking about, eh? You'r just shooting off your mouth on issues and events you are utterly ignorant about. This of course shouldn't much surprise us, as your doing the same about Chess here all the time. It is a safe bet that when it would ever be reported astronomers detected radio-messages from an extraterrestrial intelligence, you would appear here to tell us exactly what these aliens eat and how they dress, and how what they told about it in the actually received message is all lies, and how much better you know what goes on on their planet...

In the reality outside your delusional Universe no piece values or PST were given to AlphaZero by the programmers, not even the hint that such concepts should be used. No human example games of what constitutes good play were fed to the machine. The only information it got in advance was how to calculate legal moves in a given position, and how a game ends. The machine could not have cared less whether this info described Chess, Checkers, Go, Shogi, Hex... It just took the rules, and after 4 hours of thinking about them it reached a conclusion of how to best play the game decribed by those rules, that was good enough to perform at 3000+ Elo level. And PST or piece values did not make part of its considerations.

The only code that was programmed and executed was the code that describes how to learn from its experience. This is no doubt a very complex and challenging task, which is why the team is so large. Nothing was programmed about Chess or how to play it. The only thig that was programmed is how to learn from matches of whatever game you could play. And then restrict the games it could play to Chess games, by imposing FIDE rules on the moves in the test games. And from that it learned itself how to play strong Chess, without any human interference.
Very good, clear-sighted and realistic Post, not to Tsvetkov's liking, because there are no conspiracy theories in it. :)
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duncan
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by duncan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:13 pm

mclane wrote:How can it be that a top chess program that was made by men gets completely crushed by an engine that was designed by a machine ?!
who do you think designed the machine?

shrapnel
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by shrapnel » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:16 pm

Luis Babboni wrote:"...NASA will host a media teleconference at 1 p.m. EST Thursday, Dec. 14, to announce the latest discovery made by its planet-hunting Kepler space telescope. The discovery was made by researchers using machine learning from Google. Machine learning is an approach to artificial intelligence, and demonstrates new ways of analyzing Kepler data...."

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa ... -discovery
Shhhh... Tsvetkov and Szabo will say its all a gigantic conspiracy between NASA and Google. :) Ahh... Google must have bribed NASA to use their Program. :lol:
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mclane
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by mclane » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:59 pm

duncan wrote:
mclane wrote:How can it be that a top chess program that was made by men gets completely crushed by an engine that was designed by a machine ?!
who do you think designed the machine?
That’s not the point.
AZ plays more human like stockfish etc.

Although these programs were made by men.
The grandmasters and IMs and Kiebitzes arround world are all compeletY happy to see steinitz, nimzowitsch and Tal being executed against stockfish.
While stockfish stands there paralyzed and with a bunch of not developed pieces en block , not able to move a piece, not capable not to eat the sacced piece or pawn.

Stockfish plays machine chess .
While AZ plays human chess.

But AZ is the machines machine. While stockfish is the human machine design.


That’s really paradox.

The machine teaches us how to play like a human against stockfish.
By having active pieces and play idealistically.
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Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

Milos
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by Milos » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:35 pm

hgm wrote:It just took the rules, and after 4 hours of thinking about them it reached a conclusion of how to best play the game decribed by those rules, that was good enough to perform at 3000+ Elo level.
It was not 4 hours of thinking, but 4 hours of (self-)playing 20 million games.
What we don't know is what were the starting positions of those 20 million self-played games.
Dirichlet noise and temperature=1 is far from enough for good exploration of opening games, so I strongly doubt they only used starting positions for those self-played games (but ofc we will never get a confirmation or proof of anything from Google).

Milos
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by Milos » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:38 pm

mclane wrote:That’s not the point.
AZ plays more human like stockfish etc.

Although these programs were made by men.
The grandmasters and IMs and Kiebitzes arround world are all compeletY happy to see steinitz, nimzowitsch and Tal being executed against stockfish.
While stockfish stands there paralyzed and with a bunch of not developed pieces en block , not able to move a piece, not capable not to eat the sacced piece or pawn.

Stockfish plays machine chess .
While AZ plays human chess.

But AZ is the machines machine. While stockfish is the human machine design.


That’s really paradox.
Well, you are human, but you make comments like a bot (machine). For me that is the real paradox. :lol:

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mclane
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by mclane » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:47 pm

Try to concentrate on content.
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Milos
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Re: Much weaker than Stockfish

Post by Milos » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:03 pm

mclane wrote:Try to concentrate on content.
Sorry, but you offer none, nothing to concentrate on, just similar kind of rumblings like Anil. You clearly don't understand how Alpha0 works, how it is trained, and why does it play like it plays, and just behave like primitive humans that attributed godlike characteristics to any phenomenon they couldn't understand.

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