Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

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leavenfish
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by leavenfish » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:52 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
...well, a lot of assumptions and crap (yes, paraphrased by Leavenfish), but that's the gist of it.

8-)
Seriously, I don't know why you are so bent out of shape and make all sorts assumptions and ad hominems against me. I'll not bother replying to it. Boban Stanojevic is the only one involved in this thread of late that would be worth my time. Good bye.

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Ovyron
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by Ovyron » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:34 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:The fact is, that a LOT of players, even stronger than you, would not play Rxe6 in that position
Fully agreed! I'm glad this confirms Brian as an engine slave, that explains a lot, I feel more comfortable now.
matejst wrote: to play games at LTC,
I have tried LTC, I really gave it a chance, but I have found it's a snorefest...

I guess at some point one has to decide if one wants to improve, or if one wants to have more fun, and what I've found is that playing 4 games, losing and winning half of them, is way more fun that just winning 1, that is all one can do in the same timeframe.

I also feel that I learn more, since I can check a lot more moves for blunders, and innacuracies, than being stuck with a single game that took x4 times as long.

I do hate games without increment and winning on time, though, and I need at least +4 secs move, but for me, Blitz is the time control for chess, for life.

Or rather... Rapid? They recently implemented Rapid time controls in lichess and put them a cute bunny icon, and I found out that the time controls that I play fall under rapid (10 minute/game), so, so much for praising Blitz all my life! :lol:

matejst
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by matejst » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:42 am

I have tried LTC, I really gave it a chance, but I have found it's a snorefest...
I admit that to play at LTC, OTB, is very painful. (I stopped playing when I couldn't smoke and have a cup of coffee during the game any more.) But LTC makes you really work. You learn to focus, and that a game is not won until it's won.

After just one tournament at LTC, you suddenly start playing blitz and rapid much better. And it's not a snorefest -- it's a cruel, long fight. 15 bloody rounds.

BrendanJNorman wrote:
The fact is, that a LOT of players, even stronger than you, would not play Rxe6 in that position
I completely agree with Brendan here.

I would certainly think twice, and OTB, I would gladely play the position with a rook for a bishop. A rook is a rook.

Anyway, even after d5, there remain a lot ot tactical motives, with the two bishops aiming at black king's position. I would probably think about freeing my knight by playing Kb1. There are motives like Bb5, Ne5 is not bad (the idea could be Bg6), than a plan with h3, g4 is dangerous for black and safe for white. There is a lot of poison in that position, and white seems faster.

matejst
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by matejst » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:05 am

A really good way to improve is to play at LTC against old programs, in my experience. Usually, they see 6 to 8 plies, and positionaly they are weak enough.

So you can choose to play double-edge positions where you do stand a chance, or to avoid such kind of positions and improve your technique.

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Ovyron
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by Ovyron » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:14 pm

matejst wrote:I would certainly think twice, and OTB, I would gladely play the position with a rook for a bishop. A rook is a rook.
I would give Rxe6 a !?

Sure, you can play the position with engines, and white may win all the games, but, unless you're playing a weaker opponent, White has a lot of pressure into proving the sacrifice is !!

Against equal opposition, I'd also pick the black side, though, it's weird to give an opinion when I'm hundreds of elo weaker than everyone else on the thread.
matejst wrote:A really good way to improve is to play at LTC against old programs, in my experience. Usually, they see 6 to 8 plies, and positionaly they are weak enough.

So you can choose to play double-edge positions where you do stand a chance, or to avoid such kind of positions and improve your technique.
I used to do that against Rebel, since it would play weak, but slow (this is just not practical against modern engines at low depth since they play too fast), but, the things I learned to defeat its depth 6 (I don't think I ever managed to beat its depth 7) would just not work against humans, and in my experience, when having the choice to play an engine or a human, the human will teach you a lot more, how to stand on your feet and win if they're weaker (I have found weaker players are the most aggresive, and actually lose against people 200 elo weaker in a regular basis), to see, exploit, and avoid making, the blunders that you tend to make if they're of equal strength, and...

Well, engines are just basically human emulators, but nothing really beats playing against a stronger human, specially, I have learned the most from stronger humans that have made some innacuracy that has allowed me to gain the edge and get an advantageous position (they drop a piece, or lose the exchange, or give me pawns for nothing), yet, they still play at a much harder level, and beating them is never easy despite the handicap. Losing games from winning positions against a stronger human is incredibly instructive.

With so many strong players willing to play me at any time control over the internet, playing against an engine just feels way old fashioned, though it might be very useful at some point (my very first computer program was an Excalibur King Master III, and it did teach me a lot about opening principles; back then I'd use to develop my rooks via the a and h files, Excalibur taught me to develop them towards the center, and use them until late middle game; I'm sure Rebel taught me a lot as well, but my latest jumps have required experiece against stronger humans.)

leavenfish
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by leavenfish » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:20 pm

[quote=" Ulysses P."[/quote]


Against equal opposition, I'd also pick the black side, though, it's weird to give an opinion when I'm hundreds of elo weaker than everyone else on the thread.

[/quote]

While I will not engage in any pissing match...I do have to note that I do not remember seeing where anyone has given an alternative to (what I say is the obvious) Re6. I don't see anything other than that which allows White to keep an edge....

matejst
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by matejst » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:36 pm

@Brian:

When I watched the position, it seemed very sharp to me: the plan for white could be Kb1 (to avoid Bg5), then, it all becomes very tricky. Black has to play a6 to avoid Bb5 (anyway, he has too soon or later), and he has to capture on d5 with the Queen rather than with the knight (if he plays d5). White can play Ne5, h3, g4 and I guess he could be the faster one with the attack.

leavenfish
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by leavenfish » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:18 pm

matejst wrote:@Brian:

When I watched the position, it seemed very sharp to me: the plan for white could be Kb1 (to avoid Bg5), then, it all becomes very tricky. Black has to play a6 to avoid Bb5 (anyway, he has too soon or later), and he has to capture on d5 with the Queen rather than with the knight (if he plays d5). White can play Ne5, h3, g4 and I guess he could be the faster one with the attack.
Well, I can't find the position...it's somewhere in this thread. But as I recall there is a pawn on c4 (yes? no?) so Bb5 can't happen.
I just remember thinking something like your Kb1 allows an immediate...d5 which is what Black is looking for.

But, yes, if you are right and if after Kb1, Bb5 is immediately playable, then... well, I should look at the position again.

matejst
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by matejst » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:07 am

I was thinking more in term of plan than of variation. It could go (it's from memory, blindfold): 1. Kb1, d5 2. cd5 and now, if Nd5 or Bd5 3. Bb5 and white has some initiative. I wouldn't try tricks like 2. Bf6, Bf6 3. cd5 with the idea Bf7+ since all endings are with pawns on both wings and the Knight is inferior to the black Bishop.

Taking with the Queen forces 3.b3. If you try 1.b3, you still have to play Kb1 to free the Knight. Now, white threat is Qe2 and Bc4 after Qd5, so I feel that white still has some initiative.

After 1.Re6, fe6, white has Bg6 and Qe2 and a lot of initiative, but black can play e5 and close a critical diagonal. The Queen will go to d7 sooner or later to cover both the white squares but, more importantly, the seventh rank. Because of the pawn on c4, white can't really occupy d5 anytime soon.

In both cases, h3 with g4 is a good plan for white. The best place for the white Queen is e2, while the white Knight has h4 in some variations and e5.

I didn't think about 1. Kb1, d5 2. Re6: fe6 and, e.g. 3. Bg6, Rf8 or 3. Qe2 because now black has the square d6 for his bishop and threatens d4. 1. Kb1 would be a clear loss of tempo.

In any case, it's a position rich in possibilities, with a small white initiative.

leavenfish
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Re: Help with Komodo 1.0 personalities.

Post by leavenfish » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:30 am

Ah, found the position.

There was a pawn on c4, so White can't play Bb5 in response to ...d5.
Yes, ...d5 White takes, Black plays Qd5...and then your b3 could be played. But it is absolutely equal I would think...Black has freed his game with ...d5.

So, I think giving up the exchange for all the pluses White gets must surely be well worth the exchange. It's pretty easy to convince oneself that it is the best move in the position.

THIS is surely a real example of 'style'...but even then, I don't think it matters if Tal or Petrosian had White.... I have to think Re6 would be the main choice of each. There is no way to prove or disprove that of course. But I would LOVE to play this as White OTB...hard for Black to do anything with that rigid structure...and White easily has compensation for the exchange. An exchange isn't much when Black has the minus' it is left with...and White should be able to quickly play against the h6 weakness, with those Bishops raking the kingside...and g6 in the air.

I was reading a bit from Dorman's The Critical Moment. I think he would refer to the position in question as a 'critical moment'....a point where the game could turn. In this case from better for White (a bit, and statically) to equal if...d5 is allowed, so you change the pawn structure at the 'cost' of an exchange...and get the chance to keep and push the edge. Chess is not about about being a 'bean counter'.

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