Is this position a win for white?

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zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by zullil »

BeyondCritics wrote:
zullil wrote:
BeyondCritics wrote: So you can't elicit the winning line, or what is the problem here?
You neither want to allow black to activate his bishop, nor do you want to allow black to activate his queen with a4 and Qa5.
Simply Qd2, Kb3, Nb2, Ka4, Nd3-c1-b3xa5 should do the trick.
Black gets to move too. :wink:
You have strong hardware, so whats the winning line anyway?
Don't know if there is one. Uri is a very accomplished correspondence chess player, so I assume he has already examined the plan you suggested (and didn't see a win).

Seems like Nxa5 might prove problematic. Black puts the Q on the a-file and the K on b7. Nxa5 is then met by Kb6. But I assume you already considered this.
kgburcham
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:19 pm

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by kgburcham »

BeyondCritics wrote:
kgburcham wrote:
Simply Qd2, Kb3, Nb2, Ka4, Nd3-c1-b3xa5 should do the trick.

1. Qd2 Qa7 2. Kb3 Qa8 3. Nb2 Kb7 4. Ka4 Bh2 5. Nd3 Bg1
6. Nc1 Be3 7. Qc3 Bxc1 8. Qxc1 g4

[D] q7/1kp5/3p4/pPpPp2p/K1P1Ppp1/P4P1P/6P1/2Q5 w - -


43/86 2:23 0.00 9.fxg4 hxg4 10.hxg4 Qg8

did I make a mistake?

kgburcham
Your mistake is, that you think you are a computer.
This line was an expression of an _idea_, the way normal clubplayers think.
please check your lines with a program before posting
no chess program was born totally from one mind. all chess programs have many ideas from many minds.
BeyondCritics
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 2:48 pm
Full name: Oliver Roese

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by BeyondCritics »

Your pv makes it looks like a draw, since there is no progress in the end.
Going over it with Cfish, it shows an improvement for white: 3.h4! gxh4 4.Qe1 Bg3 5.Qh1 and with Cfish a have now a +3.43 score with a very convincing pv, although there was some struggle initially:

[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp2p/N1P1Pp1p/PK3Pb1/6P1/7Q b - - 0 5

If nothing happens, white collects one or two h-pawns and later breaks through with the help of the lever b6!
BeyondCritics
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 2:48 pm
Full name: Oliver Roese

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by BeyondCritics »

zullil wrote:
BeyondCritics wrote:
zullil wrote:
BeyondCritics wrote: So you can't elicit the winning line, or what is the problem here?
You neither want to allow black to activate his bishop, nor do you want to allow black to activate his queen with a4 and Qa5.
Simply Qd2, Kb3, Nb2, Ka4, Nd3-c1-b3xa5 should do the trick.
Black gets to move too. :wink:
You have strong hardware, so whats the winning line anyway?
Don't know if there is one. Uri is a very accomplished correspondence chess player, so I assume he has already examined the plan you suggested (and didn't see a win).

Seems like Nxa5 might prove problematic. Black puts the Q on the a-file and the K on b7. Nxa5 is then met by Kb6. But I assume you already considered this.
Not really. This position was presented to me in the text books as a win and i made the mistake to believe it.
I see your point. And trading queens with Qxa5 seems not to help either. Although white has a bag full of tricks, black can defend. Only an engine can accomplish that feat.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10282
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by Uri Blass »

BeyondCritics wrote:Your pv makes it looks like a draw, since there is no progress in the end.
Going over it with Cfish, it shows an improvement for white: 3.h4! gxh4 4.Qe1 Bg3 5.Qh1 and with Cfish a have now a +3.43 score with a very convincing pv, although there was some struggle initially:

[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp2p/N1P1Pp1p/PK3Pb1/6P1/7Q b - - 0 5

If nothing happens, white collects one or two h-pawns and later breaks through with the help of the lever b6!
It seems that you are based on 2....Bh2 by black but his pv is

1. Qd2 Qa7 2. Kb3 Qa8
MikeGL
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:49 pm

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by MikeGL »

MikeGL wrote:
MikeGL wrote:I also tried, and it seems h4 instead of Nxb6 could win for white.
Sorry, I tried again. Defence of black remains the same and I can not find the win.
Ok, my third attempt thanks to good ideas presented by other posters above.
Looks like a 1-0 for white with Nc6 invasion for the win.

Analysis was done with engine assistance and ideas of above posters.
Maybe a forced win, or the defence I played is not accurate.

[pgn]

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2018.01.29"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "Stockfish8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[WhiteElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "1800+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2k5/2p5/1q1p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "28"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Qd2 Qa7 2. Kb3 Bh2 3. Nb2 Bg3 4. Ka4 Kb7 5. Nd3 Bh4 6. Nc1 Qa8 7. Nb3
Qa7 8. Qxa5 Qb6 (8. .. Qxa5+ 9. Nxa5+ Kc8 10. Nc6 Kd7 11. Ka5+-) 9. Qd2
Qa7+ 10. Qa5 Qb6 11. Qa6+ Qxa6+ 12. bxa6+ Kxa6 13. Na5 Kb6 14. Nc6 1-0
[/pgn]
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10282
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by Uri Blass »

stockfish suggest a different move at move 2

[D]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/PK3PbP/3Q2P1/8 b - - 3 2

Stockfish_18012814_x64_modern:
1/1 00:00 81 41k -0.89 2. ... Kd7
2/2 00:00 179 90k -0.92 2. ... Kd7 3.Nc3
3/3 00:00 268 134k -0.89 2. ... Kd7 3.Nc3 Ke7
4/4 00:00 511 256k -0.70 2. ... Qa8 3.Nc3 Kd7 4.Qe2
5/5 00:00 1k 620k -0.82 2. ... Qa8 3.Qd3 Qb8 4.Nc3 Kd7
6/7 00:00 3k 1,112k -0.95 2. ... Qa8 3.Nc3 Kd7 4.a4 h4 5.Ne2
7/7 00:00 4k 1,114k -0.80 2. ... Kd7 3.Nc3 Qb6 4.a4 Bh4 5.Qe2 Ke7
8/8 00:00 6k 1,492k -0.84 2. ... Kd7 3.Nc3 Qb6 4.Ka4 Bh4 5.Ne2 Bf2 6.Qxa5
9/11 00:00 17k 2,163k -0.95 2. ... Qa8 3.Nc3 Kb7 4.a4 Bh2 5.Ka3 Kc8 6.Ne2 Kb7
10/13 00:00 31k 2,611k -0.73 2. ... Qa8 3.Nc3 Kb7 4.a4 Kb6 5.Kc2 Kb7 6.Kd3 h4 7.Nd1 Kb6
11/16 00:00 81k 2,542k -1.08 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3 Bh2 4.Ne2 a4+ 5.Kb2 h4 6.Qd1 Bg3 7.Nc3 Bf2 8.Nxa4 Bd4+ 9.Kb3
12/19 00:00 117k 2,596k -1.14 2. ... Bh2 3.Nc3 Bg1 4.h4 gxh4 5.Qe1 Bd4 6.Qxh4 Bxc3 7.Kxc3 a4 8.Qxh5 Qa5+ 9.Kd3 Qe1 10.Qe8+ Kb7
13/21 00:00 172k 2,738k -1.17 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3 Bh2 4.Ne2 a4+ 5.Kb2 Qa8 6.Qd1 Qa5 7.Nc3 Bg3 8.Qxa4 Qxa4
14/18 00:00 224k 2,795k -1.22 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd1 Bd4 7.Qxa5 Qb6 8.Qxb6+ cxb6 9.Kb3 Kc7
15/19 00:00 243k 2,766k -1.22 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd1 Bd4 7.Qxa5 Qb6 8.Qxb6+ cxb6 9.Kb3 Kc8 10.a4 Kc7 11.Nc3 Bxc3 12.Kxc3
16/25 00:00 315k 2,887k -1.16 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd1 Bd4 7.Qxa5 Qb6 8.Qxb6+ Kxb6 9.Kb3 Ka5 10.a4 Kb6 11.Nc3 Bxc3 12.Kxc3 Ka5 13.Kb3 h4
17/32 00:00 487k 3,105k -1.40 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd1 Bd4 7.Qxa5 Qb6 8.Qxb6+ cxb6 9.Kb3 Kc8 10.a4 Kc7 11.Kc2 Kb7 12.Kd3 Kc7 13.Kd2 Kd7 14.Kd3
18/28 00:00 508k 3,116k -1.32 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd1 Bd4 7.Qxa5 Qb6 8.Qxb6+ cxb6 9.Kb3 Kc8 10.a4 Kc7 11.Kc2 Kd7 12.Kd3 Kc7 13.Kd2 Kc8 14.Nc3 Bxc3+ 15.Kxc3 Kd8
19/29 00:00 560k 3,113k -1.33 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd1 Bd4 7.Qxa5 Qb6 8.Qxb6+ cxb6 9.Kb3 Kc8 10.a4 Kc7 11.Kc2 Kd7 12.Nc3 Bxc3 13.Kxc3 Kd8 14.Kd3 Kd7 15.Ke2 Kc7 16.Kd2
20/31 00:00 887k 3,308k -1.39 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd3 Qa8 7.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 8.Kxa5 Bd4 9.Ka4 Kb6 10.Kb3 Ka5 11.Nc1 Bf2 12.Nd3 Be3
21/26 00:00 937k 3,300k -1.39 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd3 Qa8 7.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 8.Kxa5 Bd4 9.Ka4 Kb6 10.Kb3 Ka5 11.Nc1 Bf2 12.a4 Be3 13.Nd3 Bd4 14.Ka3 Kb6
22/35 00:00 1,089k 3,350k -1.45 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd3 Qa8 7.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 8.Kxa5 Bd4 9.Ka4 Be3 10.Kb3 Kb6 11.Nb2 Bd4 12.Na4+ Ka5 13.Nc3 Bxc3 14.Kxc3 Ka4 15.Kb2
23/39 00:00 1,305k 3,354k -1.32 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Kb7 5.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 6.Kxa5 Be3 7.Nd1 Bd4 8.Ka4 Kb6 9.Kb3 Kb7 10.Nc3 Bxc3 11.Kxc3 Kb6 12.Kb2 Kb7 13.Kb3 Kb6 14.Kc2 Ka7 15.Kd3 Kb6 16.Kc3 Ka7 17.Kd2 Kb6
24/29 00:00 1,611k 3,301k -1.35 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Kb7 5.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 6.Kxa5 Be3 7.Nd1 Bd4 8.Ka4 Kb6 9.Kb3 Kb7 10.Nc3 Bxc3 11.Kxc3 Kb6 12.Kb3 Ka7 13.Kc2 Kb6 14.Kc3 Kb7 15.Kb2 Kb6 16.Kc2 Ka5
25/37 00:00 2,917k 3,481k -1.24 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Kb7 5.Nd3 Be3 6.Qe1 Qa8 7.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 8.Kxa5 Ka7 9.Ka4 Kb7 10.Kb3 Kb6 11.Nb2 Bd4 12.Na4+ Ka5 13.Nc3 Bxc3 14.Kxc3 Kb6 15.Kb2 Kb7 16.Kb3 Kb6 17.Kc3 Ka7 18.Kd2 Kb6 19.Kd3
26/34 00:01 5,198k 3,585k -1.24 2. ... Qa8 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 6.Kxa5 Kb7 7.Nd3 Bd4 8.Ka4 Be3 9.Kb3 Kb6 10.Nb2 Bd4 11.Na4+ Ka5 12.Nc3 Bxc3 13.Kxc3 Kb6 14.Kb2 Kb7 15.Kb3 Kb6 16.Kc3 Ka7 17.Kd2 Kb6 18.Kd3
27/35 00:01 5,322k 3,591k -1.24 2. ... Qa8 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 6.Kxa5 Kb7 7.Nd3 Bd4 8.Ka4 Be3 9.Kb3 Kb6 10.Nb2 Bd4 11.Na4+ Ka5 12.Nc3 Bxc3 13.Kxc3 Kb6 14.Kb2 Kb7 15.Kb3 Kb6 16.Kc3 Ka7 17.Kd2 Kb6 18.Kc2 Kb7 19.Kd3 Kb6
28/38 00:01 6,758k 3,665k -1.24 2. ... Qa8 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Qd1 Bg3 5.Qe2 a4+ 6.Nxa4 Qa5 7.Nc3 Kb7 8.Qd2 Bh2 9.Qe1 Bg3 10.Qe2 Kc8 11.Qf1 Kb7 12.Qg1 Kc8 13.Kb2 Kb7 14.Qf1 Qa8 15.Qe2 Qa5 16.Qd2 Kc8 17.Qd1 Bf2
29/40 00:02 10,995k 3,767k -1.15 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2 Bg1 4.Ka4 Be3 5.Qe1 Kb7 6.Nd3 Qa8 7.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 8.Kxa5 Ka7 9.Ka4 Kb7 10.Nb2 Bd4 11.Nd1 Ka7 12.Kb3 Kb6 13.Nb2 Bxb2 14.Kxb2 Kb7 15.Kc1 Kb6 16.Kc2 Kb7 17.Kd3 Kb6
30/36- 00:03 12,109k 3,783k -1.22 2. ... Bh2 3.Nb2
30/37+ 00:03 13,742k 3,800k -1.15 2. ... Bh2
30/47 00:04 17,848k 3,887k -1.18 2. ... Bh2 3.Qd1 Bg3 4.Qh1 Kb7 5.Qf1 Bh4 6.Qe2 Bg3 7.Nb2 a4+ 8.Ka2 Qa5 9.Qc2 Be1 10.Qxa4 Qxa4 11.Nxa4 Bf2 12.Nc3 Bd4 13.Ne2 Kb6 14.Kb3 Ka5 15.g4 h4 16.Nc3 Be3 17.Kc2 Bd4 18.Kb2 Kb6 19.Kb3 Ka5
31/40- 00:05 22,304k 3,925k -1.26 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1
31/49- 00:06 25,061k 3,907k -1.33 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1
31/49+ 00:06 25,325k 3,909k -1.26 2. ... Bh2
31/49 00:07 30,050k 3,952k -1.15 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nb2 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kc8 9.Qd2 Kb7 10.Nb1 Qa7 11.Kb2 Kc8 12.Qe2 Bh2 13.Qf1 Bg3 14.Nc3 Kb7 15.Ka2 Qa8 16.Qe2 Bh2 17.Kb3 Bg1 18.Qe1 Bd4
32/38 00:07 30,697k 3,958k -1.11 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nb2 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kc8 9.Qd2 Kb7 10.Nb1 Qa7 11.Kb2 Bh2 12.Qd1 Bg3 13.Qe2 Qa4 14.Nc3 Qa5 15.Qf1 Bh4 16.Kb3 Qa8 17.Ka2 Qa5 18.Kb2 Kc8 19.Qe2 Kb7 20.Kb3 Kc8 21.Na4
33/40 00:07 30,998k 3,962k -1.11 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nb2 a4+ 7.Ka2 Qa5 8.Qc2 Kb6 9.Nxa4+ Kb7 10.Nb2 Kb6 11.Qa4 Bf2 12.Kb3 Qxa4+ 13.Nxa4+ Ka5 14.Nc3 Bd4 15.Ne2 Be3 16.g4 h4 17.Nc3 Bd4 18.Kb2 Kb6 19.Kc2 Ka5 20.Kb3 Kb6
34/41 00:08 32,009k 3,969k -1.11 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nb2 a4+ 7.Ka2 Qa5 8.Qc2 Kb6 9.Nxa4+ Kb7 10.Nb2 Kb6 11.Qa4 Bf2 12.Kb3 Qxa4+ 13.Nxa4+ Ka5 14.Nc3 Bd4 15.Ne2 Be3 16.g4 h4 17.Nc3 Bd4 18.Kb2 Kb6 19.Kc2 Ka5 20.Kb3 Kb6
35/40 00:09 36,124k 3,998k -1.11 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nb2 a4+ 7.Ka2 Qa5 8.Qc2 Bh4 9.Qxa4 Qxa4 10.Nxa4 Bf2 11.Nc3 Be3 12.Kb3 Bd4 13.Ne2 Kb6 14.Ka4 Be3 15.g4 h4 16.Nc3 Bd4 17.Nb1 Be3 18.Kb3 Kb7 19.Nc3 Bd4 20.Na4 Ka7 21.Kc2 Kb7 22.Nc3 Kb6
36/21- 00:09 36,452k 4,002k -1.18 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1
36/42 00:09 37,189k 4,001k -1.14 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Qa4 16.Nd2 Bh2 17.Qe1 Bg3 18.Qf1 Kc8 19.Nb1 Qa5 20.Nc3 Kb7 21.Kb3 Kb8 22.Qd1 Bf2
37/42 00:10 41,550k 4,025k -1.12 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Qa4 16.Qc2 Qa5 17.Qd2 Qa8 18.Nc3 Qa5 19.Qe2 Bh2 20.Qd1 Bg3 21.Qa4 Qxa4 22.Nxa4 Be1
38/43 00:11 46,441k 4,048k -1.11 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Qa4 16.Qc2 Qa5 17.Qd2 Qa8 18.Nc3 Qa5 19.Qe2 Bh2 20.Qf1 Bg3 21.Qg1 Kb8 22.Kb3 Kc8 23.Qf1 Kb8
39/54 00:14 57,737k 4,031k -1.09 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Qa4 16.Qc2 Qa5 17.Qd2 Qa8 18.Nc3 Qa5 19.Qe2 Bh2 20.Qd1 Bg3 21.Qa4 Qxa4 22.Nxa4 Bf2 23.Kb3 Bd4
40/47 00:17 72,000k 4,004k -1.09 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Qa4 16.Qc2 Qa5 17.Qd2 Qa8 18.Nc3 Qa5 19.Qe2 Bh2 20.Qd1 Bg3 21.Qa4 Qxa4 22.Nxa4 Bf2 23.Kb3 Bd4 24.Nc3 Bxc3 25.Kxc3 Ka7
41/45 00:21 85,507k 3,998k -1.09 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Qa4 16.Qc2 Qa5 17.Qd2 Qa8 18.Nc3 Qa5 19.Qe2 Bh2 20.Qd1 Bg3 21.Qa4 Qxa4 22.Nxa4 Bf2 23.Kb3 Bd4 24.Nc3 Bxc3
42/44 00:25 100,716k 3,933k -1.09 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Bh2 16.Qf1 Qa5 17.Qd1 Bg3 18.Qd2 Qa8 19.Nc3 Qa5 20.Qe2 Bh2 21.Qd1 Bg3 22.Qa4 Qxa4 23.Nxa4 Bf2 24.Kb3
43/47 00:30 119,675k 3,870k -1.09 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Bh2 16.Qf1 Qa5 17.Qd1 Bg3 18.Qd2 Qa8 19.Nc3 Qa5 20.Qe2 Bh2 21.Qd1 Bg3 22.Qa4 Qxa4 23.Nxa4 Bf2 24.Kb3 Bd4 25.Nc3 Bf2
44/49 00:39 155,230k 3,887k -1.09 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Bh2 16.Qf1 Qa5 17.Qd1 Bg3 18.Qd2 Qa8 19.Nc3 Qa5 20.Qe2 Bh2 21.Qd1 Bg3 22.Qa4 Qxa4 23.Nxa4 Bf2 24.Kb3 Bd4 25.Nc3 Bxc3 26.Kxc3 Ka7
45/49 00:53 208,923k 3,938k -1.09 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Bh2 16.Qf1 Qa5 17.Qd1 Bg3 18.Qd2 Qa8 19.Nc3 Qa5 20.Qe2 Bh2 21.Qd1 Bg3 22.Qg1 Kb8 23.Kb3 Bh4 24.Qf1 Kc8 25.Qe2 Bg3 26.Qd2 Kb7
46/61 01:29 365,753k 4,084k -1.09 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qe1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Qa4 16.Qc2 Qxc2+ 17.Kxc2 Kb6 18.Nc3 Bf2 19.Nd1 Bd4 20.Kb3 Kb7 21.Nc3 Bxc3 22.Kxc3 Ka7 23.Kc2 Kb6 24.Kb3 Ka5 25.Kb2 Ka4 26.Ka2 Ka5 27.Kb1 Kb6
47/52 01:57 480,255k 4,071k -1.03 2. ... Bh2 3.Qc1 Bg3 4.Qf1 Qa8 5.Qe2 Kb7 6.Nc3 a4+ 7.Nxa4 Qa5 8.Nc3 Kb8 9.Qf1 Kb7 10.Kb2 Kc8 11.Qe2 Kb7 12.Qd2 Bh2 13.Nb1 Qa8 14.Qd1 Bg3 15.Qe2 Qa4 16.Qc2 Qa5 17.Qd2 Qa8 18.Nc3 Qa5 19.Qe2 Bh2 20.Qf1 Bg3 21.Qd1 Bf2 22.Qa4 Qxa4 23.Nxa4 Be3 24.Nc3 Bd4 25.Kb3 Bxc3 26.Kxc3 Ka7 27.Kd3 Kb6
48/57- 02:37 638,025k 4,056k -1.11 2. ... Bh2 3.h4
48/61- 02:51 691,425k 4,042k -1.18 2. ... Bh2 3.h4
48/61- 03:06 757,628k 4,058k -1.30 2. ... Bh2 3.h4
48/61 03:49 934,032k 4,073k -1.27 2. ... Kb7 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qe1 Bd4 6.Nd3 Be3 7.g4 hxg4 8.hxg4 Qa8 9.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 10.Kxa5 Bd2+ 11.Ka4 Be3 12.Kb3 Kb6 13.Nb2 Bd4 14.Na4+ Kb7 15.Nc3 Kb6 16.Ne2 Be3 17.Kc2 Kb7 18.Nc1 Bxc1 19.Kxc1 Kb6 20.Kd2 Ka5 21.Kc2 Ka4 22.Kb2 Ka5 23.Kb3 Kb6 24.Kc3 Ka5 25.Kb2 Kb6 26.Kb3 Kb7 27.Kc3 Kb6 28.Kc2 Ka5 29.Kb1 Kb6
49/58 04:15 1,040,337k 4,068k -1.27 2. ... Kb7 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qe1 Bd4 6.Nd3 Be3 7.g4 hxg4 8.hxg4 Qa8 9.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 10.Kxa5 Bd2+ 11.Ka4 Be3 12.Kb3 Kb6 13.Nb2 Bd4 14.Na4+ Kb7 15.Nc3 Kb6 16.Ne2 Be3 17.Kc2 Kb7 18.Nc1 Bxc1 19.Kxc1 Kb6 20.Kd2 Ka5 21.Kc2 Kb6 22.Kd3 Ka5 23.Kc3 Kb6 24.Kb2 Ka7 25.Ka1 Kb7 26.Kb1 Kb6 27.Kc2 Kb7 28.Kd3 Kb6 29.Kc3 Kb7 30.Kb3 Ka7 31.Kb2 Kb7
50/56 04:33 1,116,609k 4,077k -1.27 2. ... Kb7 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qe1 Be3 6.g4 hxg4 7.hxg4 Bd4 8.Nd3 Be3 9.Qa1 Qb8 10.Qc3 Qa8 11.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 12.Kxa5 Bd2+ 13.Ka4 Be3 14.Kb3 Kb6 15.Nb2 Bd4 16.Na4+ Kb7 17.Nc3 Kb6 18.Ne2 Be3 19.Kc2 Kb7 20.Kc3 Kb6 21.Kb3 Ka7 22.Nc3 Kb6 23.Na4+ Kb7 24.Kc2 Bd4 25.Nc3 Be3 26.Kd3 Kb6 27.Ne2 Bd4 28.Kc2 Be3 29.Nc3 Ka5 30.Kb1
51/67 07:08 1,751,072k 4,087k -1.27 2. ... Kb7 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qe1 Be3 6.g4 hxg4 7.hxg4 Bd4 8.Nd3 Be3 9.Qa1 Qb8 10.Qc3 Qa8 11.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 12.Kxa5 Bd2+ 13.Ka4 Be3 14.Kb3 Kb6 15.Nb2 Bd4 16.Na4+ Kb7 17.Nc3 Kb6 18.Ne2 Be3 19.Kc2 Kb7 20.Kc3 Kb6 21.Kb3 Ka7 22.Nc3 Kb6 23.Na4+ Kb7 24.Kc2 Bd4 25.Nc3 Be3 26.Kb1 Bg1 27.Ka2 Bd4 28.Na4 Be3 29.Nb2 Kb6 30.Nd1 Bd4 31.Kb3
52/60 07:18 1,787,897k 4,075k -1.27 2. ... Kb7 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qe1 Be3 6.g4 hxg4 7.hxg4 Bd4 8.Nd3 Be3 9.Qa1 Qb8 10.Qc3 Qa8 11.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 12.Kxa5 Bd2+ 13.Ka4 Be3 14.Kb3 Kb6 15.Nb2 Bd4 16.Na4+ Kb7 17.Nc3 Kb6 18.Ne2 Be3 19.Kc2 Kb7 20.Kc3 Kb6 21.Kb3 Ka7 22.Nc3 Kb6 23.Na4+ Ka7 24.Nb2 Kb6 25.Kc2 Bd4 26.Na4+ Kb7 27.Kb3 Ka7 28.Ka2 Kb7 29.Nb2 Bg1 30.Kb3 Kb6 31.Nd1
53/60 07:53 1,929,099k 4,078k -1.27 2. ... Kb7 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qe1 Be3 6.g4 hxg4 7.hxg4 Bd4 8.Nd3 Be3 9.Qa1 Qb8 10.Qc3 Qa8 11.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 12.Kxa5 Bd2+ 13.Ka4 Be3 14.Kb3 Kb6 15.Nb2 Bd4 16.Na4+ Kb7 17.Nc3 Kb6 18.Ne2 Be3 19.Kc2 Kb7 20.Kc3 Kb6 21.Kb3 Ka7 22.Nc3 Kb6 23.Na4+ Ka7 24.Nb2 Kb6 25.Kc2 Bd4 26.Na4+ Kb7 27.Kb3 Ka7 28.Ka2 Kb7 29.Nb2 Ka7 30.Nd1 Kb6 31.Kb3 Kb7 32.Ka4
54/61 08:29 2,082,488k 4,087k -1.27 2. ... Kb7 3.Nb2 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg1 5.Qe1 Be3 6.g4 hxg4 7.hxg4 Bd4 8.Nd3 Be3 9.Qa1 Qb8 10.Qc3 Qa8 11.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 12.Kxa5 Bd2+ 13.Ka4 Be3 14.Kb3 Kb6 15.Nb2 Bd4 16.Na4+ Kb7 17.Nc3 Kb6 18.Ne2 Be3 19.Kc2 Kb7 20.Kc3 Kb6 21.Kb3 Ka7 22.Nc3 Kb6 23.Na4+ Ka7 24.Nb2 Kb6 25.Kc2 Bd4 26.Nd3 Be3 27.Kb3 Bd4 28.Ka2 Be3 29.Nb2 Bd4 30.Na4+ Kb7 31.Kb3 Ka7 32.Kc2 Kb7 33.Nc3
55/63- 09:44 2,379,575k 4,074k -1.35 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3
55/66- 11:43 2,815,730k 4,002k -1.42 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3
55/66 14:38 3,512,512k 3,999k -1.42 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg3 5.Ne2 Bh4 6.Qc3 Bf2 7.Nc1 Qa8 8.Nb3 Qa7 9.Qd3 Bg3 10.Qd2 Bh4 11.Qe2 Qa8 12.Qf1 Bg3 13.Qc1 Qa7 14.Qb1 Bh4 15.Qf1 Bg3 16.Qh1 Bf2 17.Qa1 Bg3 18.Nc1 Bf2 19.Qb2 Be3 20.Nb3 Bg1 21.Qa1 Bh2 22.Qc3 Bg3 23.Qd3 Be1 24.Qc2 Qa8 25.Qb2 Qa7 26.Qe2 Bh4 27.Qd1 Qa8 28.Qc1 Qa7 29.Qc2 Qa8 30.Nc1
56/58 16:00 3,799,914k 3,956k -1.42 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg3 5.Ne2 Bh4 6.Qc3 Bf2 7.Nc1 Qa8 8.Nb3 Qa7 9.Qd3 Bg3 10.Qd2 Bh4 11.Qe2 Qa8 12.Qf1 Bg3 13.Qc1 Qa7 14.Qb1 Bh4 15.Qf1 Bg3 16.Qh1 Bf2 17.Qa1 Bg3 18.Nd2 Qa8 19.Qh1 Kb6 20.Nb3 Bf2 21.Qd1 Kb7 22.Qd2 Bh4 23.Qe2 Kb6 24.Qf1 Kb7 25.Qa1 Qa7 26.Qd1 Qa8 27.Qc1 Qa7 28.Qb1 Qa8 29.Qd3 Qa7 30.Qc2
57/69 20:00 4,716,347k 3,928k -1.42 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg3 5.Ne2 Bh4 6.Qc3 Bf2 7.Nc1 Qa8 8.Nb3 Qa7 9.Qd3 Bg3 10.Qd2 Bh4 11.Qe2 Qa8 12.Qf1 Bg3 13.Qc1 Qa7 14.Qb1 Bh4 15.Qf1 Bg3 16.Qh1 Bf2 17.Qa1 Bg3 18.Nd2 Qa8 19.Qh1 Kb6 20.Nb3 Bf2 21.Qd1 Kb7 22.Qd2 Bg3 23.Nc1 Bh4 24.Nd3 Qa7 25.Qxa5 Bg3 26.Qxa7+ Kxa7 27.Kb3 Kb6 28.Kc3 Bh4 29.Kc2 Ka5 30.Kb3 Kb6 31.Kc3 Bg3
58/64 20:16 4,778,602k 3,930k -1.42 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg3 5.Ne2 Bh4 6.Qc3 Bf2 7.Nc1 Qa8 8.Nb3 Qa7 9.Qd3 Bg3 10.Qd2 Bh4 11.Qe2 Qa8 12.Qf1 Bg3 13.Qc1 Qa7 14.Qb1 Bh4 15.Qf1 Bg3 16.Qh1 Bf2 17.Qa1 Bg3 18.Nd2 Qa8 19.Qh1 Kb6 20.Nb3 Bf2 21.Qd1 Kb7 22.Qd2 Bg3 23.Nc1 Bh4 24.Nd3 Kb8 25.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 26.Kxa5 Ka7 27.Ka4 Kb6 28.Kb3 Ka5 29.a4 Kb6 30.Ka3 Ka5 31.Nc1 Kb6 32.Nb3 Be1
59/62 21:52 5,167,613k 3,936k -1.42 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3 Bh2 4.Ka4 Bg3 5.Ne2 Bh4 6.Qc3 Bf2 7.Nc1 Qa8 8.Nb3 Qa7 9.Qd3 Bg3 10.Qd2 Bh4 11.Qe2 Qa8 12.Qf1 Bg3 13.Qc1 Qa7 14.Qb1 Bh4 15.Qf1 Bg3 16.Qh1 Bf2 17.Qa1 Bg3 18.Nd2 Qa8 19.Qh1 Kb6 20.Nb3 Bf2 21.Qd1 Kb7 22.Qd2 Bg3 23.Nc1 Bh4 24.Nd3 Qa7 25.Qxa5 Qxa5+ 26.Kxa5 Ka7 27.Ka4 Kb7 28.Kb3 Kb6 29.Kc3 Bg3 30.a4 Bh4 31.Kb3 Ka5 32.Ka3 Bg3 33.Kb3 Kb6
60/72+ 28:33 6,709,622k 3,916k -1.35 2. ... Kb7
60/72+ 30:54 7,269,385k 3,919k -1.27 2. ... Kb7
60/72+ 33:52 7,960,674k 3,917k -1.16 2. ... Kb7
60/85 39:30 9,233,276k 3,895k -1.03 2. ... Kb7 3.Nc3 a4+ 4.Nxa4 Bh4 5.Nb2 Kb6 6.Nd3 Qa5 7.Qxa5+ Kxa5 8.Kc2 Kb6 9.Kb2 Ka5 10.Kb3 Kb6 11.Ka2 Ka5 12.Kb2 Bg3 13.Kc2 Kb6 14.Nc1 Bf2 15.Nb3 Be1 16.Kb2 Bf2 17.Kc1 Be1 18.Kc2 h4 19.Kb2 Ka7 20.Kb1 Bc3 21.Kc2 Be1 22.Kd1 Bc3 23.Nc1 Bb2 24.Kc2 Bxc1 25.Kxc1 Kb6 26.Kc2 Kb7 27.Kd3 Ka7 28.Ke2 Kb6 29.Kd2 Ka7 30.Kd3 Kb6 31.Kc3 Kb7 32.Kc2 Kb6 33.Kb2 Ka7 34.a4 Kb6 35.Kc2
zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by zullil »

MikeGL wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
MikeGL wrote:I also tried, and it seems h4 instead of Nxb6 could win for white.
Sorry, I tried again. Defence of black remains the same and I can not find the win.
Ok, my third attempt thanks to good ideas presented by other posters above.
Looks like a 1-0 for white with Nc6 invasion for the win.

Analysis was done with engine assistance and ideas of above posters.
Maybe a forced win, or the defence I played is not accurate.

[pgn]

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2018.01.29"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "Stockfish8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[WhiteElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "1800+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2k5/2p5/1q1p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "28"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Qd2 Qa7 2. Kb3 Bh2 3. Nb2 Bg3 4. Ka4 Kb7 5. Nd3 Bh4 6. Nc1 Qa8 7. Nb3
Qa7 8. Qxa5 Qb6 (8. .. Qxa5+ 9. Nxa5+ Kc8 10. Nc6 Kd7 11. Ka5+-) 9. Qd2
Qa7+ 10. Qa5 Qb6 11. Qa6+ Qxa6+ 12. bxa6+ Kxa6 13. Na5 Kb6 14. Nc6 1-0
[/pgn]
What if 7...Bg3 and if 8. Qxa5 then Be1? Big difference between having the Q on a7 and having it on a8.
BeyondCritics
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 2:48 pm
Full name: Oliver Roese

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by BeyondCritics »

Uri Blass wrote:
BeyondCritics wrote:Your pv makes it looks like a draw, since there is no progress in the end.
Going over it with Cfish, it shows an improvement for white: 3.h4! gxh4 4.Qe1 Bg3 5.Qh1 and with Cfish a have now a +3.43 score with a very convincing pv, although there was some struggle initially:

[d]2k5/q1p5/3p4/pPpPp2p/N1P1Pp1p/PK3Pb1/6P1/7Q b - - 0 5

If nothing happens, white collects one or two h-pawns and later breaks through with the help of the lever b6!
It seems that you are based on 2....Bh2 by black but his pv is

1. Qd2 Qa7 2. Kb3 Qa8
This is his pv:
info depth 32 multipv 1 score cp 137 nodes 296897255 nps 744786 time 398634 pv b2d2 b6a7 a2b3 g3h2 a4c3 h2g1 b3a4 g1e3 d2e1 e3d4 c3e2 c8b7 e1a5 a7b6 a5e1 b6a7 a4b3 b7b6 a3a4 a7a5 e1a5 b6a5 e2c1 d4e3 c1d3 e3d4 b3a3 d4e3 d3e1 e3d4 a3b3 a5b6 e1c2 b6a5 c2a3 a5b6
This is the improvement of Cfish:
[pgn]
[Event "Qxb6+ Trap"]
[Site ""]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "*"]
[FEN "2k5/2p5/1q1p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 w - - 0 1"]
1.Qd2 Qa7 2.Kb3 Bh2 3.h4
( 3.Nc3 )
3...gxh4 4.Qe1 Bg3 5.Qh1 *
[/pgn]

From where do you have 2...Qa8?
Last edited by BeyondCritics on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BeyondCritics
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 2:48 pm
Full name: Oliver Roese

Re: Is this position a win for white?

Post by BeyondCritics »

zullil wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
MikeGL wrote:
MikeGL wrote:I also tried, and it seems h4 instead of Nxb6 could win for white.
Sorry, I tried again. Defence of black remains the same and I can not find the win.
Ok, my third attempt thanks to good ideas presented by other posters above.
Looks like a 1-0 for white with Nc6 invasion for the win.

Analysis was done with engine assistance and ideas of above posters.
Maybe a forced win, or the defence I played is not accurate.

[pgn]

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2018.01.29"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "Stockfish8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[WhiteElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "1800+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2k5/2p5/1q1p4/pPpPp1pp/N1P1Pp2/P4PbP/KQ4P1/8 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "28"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Qd2 Qa7 2. Kb3 Bh2 3. Nb2 Bg3 4. Ka4 Kb7 5. Nd3 Bh4 6. Nc1 Qa8 7. Nb3
Qa7 8. Qxa5 Qb6 (8. .. Qxa5+ 9. Nxa5+ Kc8 10. Nc6 Kd7 11. Ka5+-) 9. Qd2
Qa7+ 10. Qa5 Qb6 11. Qa6+ Qxa6+ 12. bxa6+ Kxa6 13. Na5 Kb6 14. Nc6 1-0
[/pgn]
What if 7...Bg3 and if 8. Qxa5 then Be1? Big difference between having the Q on a7 and having it on a8.
Exactly. Be1! seems to refute the whole setup.