Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

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Ovyron
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Ovyron » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:45 pm

Uri Blass wrote:Most of the moves are not forced so this advantage is very small.
But it is magnified the more games you play simultaneously.

A player that assists the engine will be able to, say, play 24 games concurrently, at about the same strenght it'd play one, because it'd just take longer to move, and focus in the games where it has the lowest time remaining, to avoid losing any game on time.

How is the unassited engine going to achieve this? Seems it'd be able to barely play 2 games at a time.

Leo
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Leo » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:52 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Leo wrote:It seems like a waste when I play matches on the computer and use all that energy and when the game is over, all the calculations disappear.
I recommend Mike Leahy's Chess Openings Wizard for this.

Unfortunately, it's not as useful as you'd think. Sure, I have all my analysis from the past 10 years in a tidy form, the problem is that when I get to use it, it turns out it's not sound anymore, and I'm able to find much better lines with what is available today.

I don't even think my analysis from 6 months ago is useful anymore :shock:

So with analysis getting obsolete in record time, you might as well accept that no matter what, either the calculations disappear or they're not going to be useful in the future.

I use COW's !! symbol for the absolute best moves I've been able to find, that have taken me hours to develop, only to see an opponent play into that position, but after double checking it turns out the variations fall down and I can't rescue them, and the move gets assigned a !? and may become third best...

I wonder how will Cerebellum look 1 year from now, perhaps it'll have a completely different repertoire, as the strongest engines of the year get released and bust its current mainlines. Perhaps we will see the come back of 1.e4!
Here is what Cerebellums website says :

"The book is always calculated with the newest Version. When the tree search is being improved, there is no big problem, Stockfish basically only searches more efficient and faster. When the evaluation function changes, in theory you would have to recalculate the whole book. But because you do not calculate only new lines, but regularly already existing lines are extended too, the book only needs some time to adapt to the new evaluation. I would say around a week. So there are really positions in the book which where calculated with a 2 year old Stockfish, but that is no problem, because they are now "hidden" under a big amount of extended positions, which now dominate the calculation of the tree, because the new nodes are always closer to the terminating nodes of the tree."
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

Uri Blass
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:58 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:Most of the moves are not forced so this advantage is very small.
But it is magnified the more games you play simultaneously.

A player that assists the engine will be able to, say, play 24 games concurrently, at about the same strenght it'd play one, because it'd just take longer to move, and focus in the games where it has the lowest time remaining, to avoid losing any game on time.

How is the unassited engine going to achieve this? Seems it'd be able to barely play 2 games at a time.
I do not understand.

Even if 60% of the moves that you play in games are not forced then you can reply immediately in 40% of the cases but need to use time in 60% of the cases.

You can use more time thanks to replying immediately in 40% of the cases but I do not see how this advantage is even 2:1 and you suggest that it is 24:1

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Ovyron
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Ovyron » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:38 pm

Leo wrote:Here is what Cerebellums website says :

"The book is always calculated with the newest Version. When the tree search is being improved, there is no big problem, Stockfish basically only searches more efficient and faster. When the evaluation function changes, in theory you would have to recalculate the whole book. But because you do not calculate only new lines, but regularly already existing lines are extended too, the book only needs some time to adapt to the new evaluation. I would say around a week. So there are really positions in the book which where calculated with a 2 year old Stockfish, but that is no problem, because they are now "hidden" under a big amount of extended positions, which now dominate the calculation of the tree, because the new nodes are always closer to the terminating nodes of the tree."
COW Books can adapt immediately by using the "EPD->Export Positions" and "EPD->Analyze with engine" features. You don't have to wait weeks, as you can decide if you only update new lines or if you update every node of the book.

Watch this video to get an idea:

http://www.bookup.com/videos/overnight-analysis/

For instance, I downloaded the PGNs from Carlos Canavessi's LS Elite League and Superfinal, I import them into a Bookup's Ebook up to 84 ply, then I "EPD->Export Positions" to get all leaf nodes into an analysis file, I start up Sugar xPRO as my engine (I use this because it automatically uses all my cores), I use "EPD->Analyze with engine", then I move to the root position and Backsolve...

I get scores for all lines. It will show that some moves are winning if there's no alternative move that avoids the losing position. I compare those lines with the ones from my Monster Book that already have deviations that don't lose and include it into the book...

BAM!

Image

I have a book that includes all moves played up until 84 plies in each of the games of those tournaments and they have a score that the engine gave, that was backsolved to the root automatically.

And if Stockfish 9 is released, I could, in theory, use "EPD->Analyze with engine" (I don't even need to export the positions again, I already have them) and all the leaf nodes would be updated with Stockfish scores, not only new lines.

Now, I feel awkward to be promoting what is basically Cerebellum's competition in a Cerebellum's thread, but perhaps it is important to know that fully capable solutions already exists, with the difference that with COW you have to start from scratch, while Cerebellum already has its book full of mainlines, but it would be possible to turn Cerebellum into a COW book and have updated scores on the fly without waiting for new lines to arrive.

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Ovyron
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Ovyron » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:48 pm

Uri Blass wrote:I do not understand.

Even if 60% of the moves that you play in games are not forced then you can reply immediately in 40% of the cases but need to use time in 60% of the cases.

You can use more time thanks to replying immediately in 40% of the cases but I do not see how this advantage is even 2:1 and you suggest that it is 24:1
Because you only need the 24 hours for critical positions, the ones that decide games, the ones that are playing a losing move that you suggested to analyze with an engine for 24 hours.

The rest of the positions either need 0 time (forced move) or you don't need much time to decide because there's no correct move to find, and it's like deciding between 1.e4, 1.d4 or 1.Nf3, all moves are fine, you can see this in 10 minutes, make a choice and move on to the next game. The rest of the time, which is huge, can be used to analyze the critical positions much more deeply, and as this accumulate, you may analyze them even deeper than the computer maxed out at 24 hours/move. With this strategy you can match the unattended computer's strength and surpass it for the positions of the games that matter.

Of course I left out the details that this person needs to sleep, so for 8 hours of sleep you may decrease the number of opponents from 24 to 16.

Thomas Zipproth
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Thomas Zipproth » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:02 am

Ovyron wrote: Now, I feel awkward to be promoting what is basically Cerebellum's competition in a Cerebellum's thread, but perhaps it is important to know that fully capable solutions already exists, with the difference that with COW you have to start from scratch, while Cerebellum already has its book full of mainlines, but it would be possible to turn Cerebellum into a COW book and have updated scores on the fly without waiting for new lines to arrive.
I'm not sure where you see an advantage of this COW book. I have several million leave nodes in the book. Of course I can update them all on the fly, but it would take over a year to do this. Manual updates of nodes are always possible in Cerebellum, so you can always update and extend positions in which you are interested or for example which you have in an Coresspondence chess game.

Also the tree calculation is different. Cerebellum does not simply propagate values from the leave nodes to the root, it recalculates the whole database in a graph model, which is complicated but the only way to achieve correct results, because chess is a graph, not a tree.

Also there are very refined methods in Cerebellum to improve the calculation, I will describe them when the full Version appears.

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Ovyron
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Ovyron » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:22 am

Thomas Zipproth wrote:I'm not sure where you see an advantage of this COW book.
The advantage of COW is that people can buy it and use it already, nothing more. I was talking to people that can't wait for Cerebellum's release because they want to do some things that they might already be able to do.
Cerebellum does not simply propagate values from the leave nodes to the root, it recalculates the whole database in a graph model, which is complicated but the only way to achieve correct results, because chess is a graph, not a tree.
Can you explain the differenence?

If it's what I suspect, then, indeed, the backsolved scores I'm showing aren't right, if there was some possible transposition that was missing, that would link a position with high score to a refutation of a low score, and fixing this would require visiting every single node and doing the "Add Moves that transpose" thing, which is unfeasible.

Anyway, I didn't know you were dealing with several millions of leaf nodes, probably the size of the project makes it nearly impossible to export it outside Cerebellum.

Uri Blass
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:35 am

Ovyron wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:I do not understand.

Even if 60% of the moves that you play in games are not forced then you can reply immediately in 40% of the cases but need to use time in 60% of the cases.

You can use more time thanks to replying immediately in 40% of the cases but I do not see how this advantage is even 2:1 and you suggest that it is 24:1
Because you only need the 24 hours for critical positions, the ones that decide games, the ones that are playing a losing move that you suggested to analyze with an engine for 24 hours.

The rest of the positions either need 0 time (forced move) or you don't need much time to decide because there's no correct move to find, and it's like deciding between 1.e4, 1.d4 or 1.Nf3, all moves are fine, you can see this in 10 minutes, make a choice and move on to the next game. The rest of the time, which is huge, can be used to analyze the critical positions much more deeply, and as this accumulate, you may analyze them even deeper than the computer maxed out at 24 hours/move. With this strategy you can match the unattended computer's strength and surpass it for the positions of the games that matter.

Of course I left out the details that this person needs to sleep, so for 8 hours of sleep you may decrease the number of opponents from 24 to 16.
I do not agree and I think that you need also to decide between different moves that draw about the move that gives more practical chances to win.

In many games it is not clear what is the losing mistake and one side got positional advantage and increase it.

Without using the computer for a long time the winner could play worse moves and not get positional advantage.

I suggested to use old games to analyze because of the idea that with today hardware and stockfish you can find the losing mistake but you could not do it at that time and at that time using the computer for a long time could only show that the losing mistake is a positional mistake that lose 0.2 pawn that you do not see in a short analysis.

Uri Blass
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Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:21 am

Here is an example for a positional error of black from one of my correspondence games.

Not sure if it was a losing mistake.

My opponent played it in 20.7.2009
Rybka3 was the best software that was available at that time.

I believe that he chose inferior move to Rybka3's move.

I also believe that Stockfish9 at 1 hour per move should be superior to Rybka3 at 24 hours per move.

[D]r2qr1k1/1p3ppp/p2b1n2/2pP4/2P1pP2/4B3/PPQ1B1PP/4RRK1 b - f3 0 17

Stockfish_18013111_x64_modern:
1/1 00:00 141 71k -0.22 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
2/2 00:00 214 107k -0.22 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
3/3 00:00 316 158k -0.25 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 h6
4/4 00:00 508 254k -0.35 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 h6 19.g3
5/5 00:00 1k 399k -0.35 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.Bd2 bxc4
6/6 00:00 3k 731k -0.40 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.Bd2 bxc4 20.Qxc4
7/7 00:00 8k 1,360k -0.35 17. ... Qd7 18.h3 Rad8 19.b3 b5 20.a4 bxc4
8/8 00:00 11k 1,383k -0.30 17. ... Qd7 18.h3 b5 19.b3 Rad8 20.Kh2 Qc7 21.g3
9/10 00:00 35k 1,739k -0.21 17. ... b5 18.b3 Qd7 19.Qd2 Rad8 20.h3 h6 21.Qb2 bxc4
10/12 00:00 53k 1,711k -0.23 17. ... b5 18.b3 Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.g4 h6 21.Kg2 Red8 22.Rb1
11/15 00:00 140k 2,007k -0.22 17. ... b5 18.h3 Rb8 19.b3 Nd7 20.g3 f5 21.Kg2 Nf6 22.Qd2 Qd7
12/13 00:00 179k 2,085k -0.27 17. ... b5 18.b3 Rb8 19.h3 Nd7 20.g3 f5 21.Kg2 g6 22.g4 bxc4 23.Bxc4
13/17 00:00 301k 2,301k -0.26 17. ... b5 18.b3 Rb8 19.g3 Nd7 20.cxb5 axb5 21.a4 bxa4 22.bxa4 f5 23.Kg2 Rb4 24.Bb5
14/22 00:00 699k 2,559k -0.26 17. ... b5 18.b3 Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.Rd1 Qc8 21.Rb1 Qd7 22.a3 h5 23.a4 bxa4 24.bxa4
15/18 00:00 885k 2,617k -0.25 17. ... b5 18.b3 Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.Rd1 Qc8 21.Rb1 h5 22.a3 Rd8 23.a4 bxc4 24.bxc4 Qf5 25.Qd2
16/20 00:00 1,689k 2,751k -0.26 17. ... b5 18.b3 Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.Kh2 Rb6 21.Qd2 bxc4 22.Bxc4 Qc7 23.Kg1 h6 24.g3 Qd7 25.Kg2
17/30 00:01 2,909k 2,757k -0.23 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Bc3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 Ng4 24.Qe2 Ne5 25.Bc3 Nxf3+ 26.Qxf3 f6 27.Bd2 b5 28.b3 Be5 29.Be3 Bd6 30.Qf1 b4 31.Qe2
18/28 00:01 3,661k 2,795k -0.23 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Bc3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 Ng4 24.Qe2 Ne5 25.Bc3 Nxf3+ 26.Qxf3 f6 27.Bd2 b5 28.b3 Be5 29.Be3 Bd6 30.Qf1 b4
19/26 00:01 4,045k 2,813k -0.27 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Bc3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 Ng4 24.Qe2 Ne5 25.Bc3 Nxf3+ 26.Qxf3 f6 27.Bd2 b5 28.b3 Be5 29.Be3
20/29 00:01 5,566k 2,857k -0.17 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 b5 20.b3 Rab8 21.Bg5 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Ng4 23.Bd2 Ne5 24.Bg2 Re8 25.a4 b4 26.Qe4 a5 27.Qf4 f6 28.Be4
21/33 00:02 7,969k 2,928k -0.26 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 b5 20.b3 Rad8 21.Bf2 Rc8 22.Rxe8+ Rxe8 23.Re1 Rxe1+ 24.Bxe1 b4 25.Qe2 a5 26.Bd2 a4 27.Be3 a3 28.Qd3 h6 29.Kg2 Qe8
22/30+ 00:03 8,871k 2,922k -0.19 17. ... exf3
22/32 00:03 9,310k 2,931k -0.22 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re7 20.Bf2 Rae8 21.Rxe7 Rxe7 22.Re1 Ng4 23.Rxe7 Bxe7 24.Bxg4 Qxg4 25.Qd3 Bd6 26.Kg2 b6 27.b3 f6 28.Qe3 Be5 29.h3 Qd7 30.Qf3 h6 31.Be3
23/32 00:04 12,273k 2,978k -0.23 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re7 20.Bf2 Rae8 21.Rxe7 Rxe7 22.Re1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 Ng4 24.Qe2 Ne5 25.Bc3 Nxf3+ 26.Qxf3 h6 27.b3 b6 28.Bb2 f6 29.Kg2 b5 30.Qe4 bxc4 31.bxc4
24/33 00:06 18,918k 3,049k -0.25 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.b3 Re5 20.Bf2 Rae8 21.Rxe5 Rxe5 22.h3 Re7 23.Bh4 Bc7 24.Re1 Rxe1+ 25.Bxe1 Be5 26.g4 Qe7 27.Bf2 Bd4 28.Kg2 Bxf2 29.Qxf2 Qd6 30.g5 Nd7
25/38+ 00:08 25,324k 3,085k -0.17 17. ... exf3
25/38 00:08 26,348k 3,086k -0.20 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.b3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Bc3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 b5 24.Bc3 Ng4 25.g3 b4 26.Bb2 Ne5 27.Be2 f6 28.Qe4 g6 29.Kg2 Qe7 30.a3 bxa3 31.Bxa3
26/38 00:10 33,007k 3,110k -0.20 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.b3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Bc3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 b5 24.Bc3 Ng4 25.h3 Ne5 26.Be2 b4 27.Bb2 f5 28.Qd2 Qe7 29.Qe3 g6 30.a4 Kf7 31.a5 Nd7 32.Qxe7+ Bxe7 33.Kf2 Bf6 34.Bxf6 Nxf6
27/42+ 00:18 58,182k 3,113k -0.12 17. ... exf3
27/42 00:19 61,626k 3,116k -0.17 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 bxc4 20.bxc4 Rb8 21.Bf2 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Nd7 23.Bg4 Ne5 24.Bd1 Nd7 25.Qa4 Qc7 26.g3 Ne5 27.Re3 Qc8 28.Qc2 Rb4 29.Be2 Qh3 30.Rb3 Rxb3 31.axb3
28/44- 00:37 114,760k 3,095k -0.25 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
28/44+ 00:38 117,995k 3,088k -0.17 17. ... exf3
28/44 00:40 126,472k 3,086k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bf2 Rac8 21.g3 Ng4 22.Bxg4 Qxg4 23.Qd3 Qd7 24.Kg2 h5 25.h3 Rb8 26.Rxe8+ Rxe8 27.Rc1 b4 28.Rf1 g6 29.Be3 a5 30.Bf4 Bxf4 31.Rxf4 Qd6 32.Re4 Rxe4 33.Qxe4 Qf6
29/44- 00:42 131,228k 3,091k -0.15 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
29/44+ 00:45 142,157k 3,102k -0.08 17. ... exf3
29/44 00:46 143,059k 3,104k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bf2 Rac8 21.g3 Ng4 22.Bxg4 Qxg4 23.Qd3 Rxe1 24.Rxe1 bxc4 25.Qxc4 Qxc4 26.bxc4 Rb8 27.Re3 Rb1+ 28.Kg2 Kf8 29.Ra3 Rb4 30.Rxa6 Ke7 31.Ra7+ Ke8 32.a4 Rxc4 33.a5 Rc2 34.Kf3 Rc3+ 35.Be3 Ra3 36.Ra8+ Ke7 37.a6 Kf6
30/47- 00:51 161,762k 3,117k -0.15 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
30/47+ 00:55 172,406k 3,126k -0.08 17. ... exf3
30/47 01:00 189,356k 3,146k -0.06 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bd2 b4 21.Bc1 Be5 22.g3 Bc3 23.Bd2 Bxd2 24.Qxd2 a5 25.Kg2 a4 26.Rxe8+ Rxe8 27.Re1 a3 28.Rxe8+ Qxe8 29.d6 Qd7 30.h3 h5 31.Qf4 Qe6 32.Kh2 Qe1 33.d7 Nxd7 34.Bxh5
31/43- 01:01 194,045k 3,145k -0.13 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
31/43- 01:04 202,206k 3,130k -0.21 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
31/43 01:13 227,925k 3,117k -0.22 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bd2 b4 21.g3 Qh3 22.Be3 Re5 23.Qg2 Qd7 24.Bf4 Ree8 25.Bd2 h6 26.g4 Re5 27.Rxe5 Bxe5 28.Be3 Qe7 29.g5 hxg5 30.Bxg5 Bd4+ 31.Kh1 Qd6 32.Bh4 Re8 33.Bg3 Qb6 34.h3 Nd7
32/45+ 01:19 247,430k 3,112k -0.15 17. ... exf3
32/45 01:23 260,331k 3,118k -0.10 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bd2 b4 21.g3 Qh3 22.Bg2 Qd7 23.Bc1 Be5 24.Bf3 Bc3 25.Bd2 Bxd2 26.Qxd2 a5 27.Kg2 a4 28.Rxe8+ Rxe8 29.Re1 Rxe1 30.Qxe1 axb3 31.axb3 Qd6 32.Kg1 g6 33.Qd2 Nd7
33/40 01:36 300,754k 3,114k -0.10 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bd2 b4 21.g3 Qh3 22.Bg2 Qd7 23.Bc1 Be5 24.Bf3 Bc3 25.Bd2 Bxd2 26.Qxd2 a5 27.Kg2 a4 28.Rxe8+ Nxe8 29.Re1 Nd6 30.Qf2 axb3 31.axb3 Ra3 32.Bd1 Qc7 33.Bc2 g6 34.Qf6 Qd7
34/46- 02:00 380,350k 3,149k -0.17 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
34/46- 02:18 437,922k 3,173k -0.25 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
34/49+ 02:27 468,166k 3,183k -0.17 17. ... exf3
34/49 02:31 481,708k 3,190k -0.17 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bf2 Rac8 21.g3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 g6 23.Kg2 h5 24.h3 b4 25.Qd3 Kg7 26.Qd2 Re8 27.Rxe8 Qxe8 28.Be3 Qe7 29.Bh6+ Kh7 30.Qe3 Qxe3 31.Bxe3 Nd7 32.g4 hxg4 33.hxg4 Ne5 34.g5 Kg7 35.Be2 f5 36.Kg3
35/50 02:58 573,101k 3,215k -0.15 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.g3 Re5 21.Bf2 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 b4 23.Kg2 a5 24.Be3 Re8 25.Re2 a4 26.Bg5 Rxe2+ 27.Bxe2 axb3 28.axb3 Ng4 29.Qe4 Ne5 30.h4 f6 31.Bf4 g6 32.h5 Qe7 33.Bd1 Kf7 34.Qc2 Qd7 35.Be2 Qe7 36.g4 Qd7
36/57 03:36 699,994k 3,237k -0.16 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.g3 Re5 21.Bd2 Rae8 22.Bc3 Rxe1 23.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 24.Bxe1 Ng4 25.Bd2 g6 26.Be2 h5 27.Qe4 bxc4 28.bxc4 Nf6 29.Qe3 Ng4 30.Qg5 Be5 31.Be3 Nxe3 32.Qxe5 Ng4 33.Qf4 Kg7 34.Bxg4 Qxg4 35.Qxg4 hxg4 36.Kf2 Kf6 37.Ke2 Ke5 38.Kd3
37/48 03:56 769,440k 3,249k -0.16 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.g3 Re5 21.Bd2 Rae8 22.Bc3 Rxe1 23.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 24.Bxe1 Ng4 25.Qe4 Nf6 26.Qd3 Ng4 27.Be2 Ne5 28.Qe4 f6 29.Bd2 g6 30.Kg2 b4 31.Bd1 a5 32.h3 Nf7 33.h4 Kg7 34.Bc2 Ne5 35.h5 Qg4 36.Qxg4 Nxg4 37.hxg6
38/47 04:42 924,695k 3,277k -0.09 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.g3 Re5 21.Bd2 Rae8 22.Bc3 Rxe1 23.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 24.Bxe1 Ng4 25.Qe4 Nf6 26.Qd3 Ng4 27.Bd1 Ne5 28.Qe4 g6 29.Kg2 f6 30.h3 b4 31.Qe3 Qf5 32.g4 Qb1 33.Qe2 Qd3 34.Bg3 Qxe2+ 35.Bxe2 Kf7 36.Bh4 Ke7 37.Bf2 f5 38.gxf5 gxf5 39.Be3 Kf7
39/54- 05:10 1,017,455k 3,277k -0.17 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
39/56+ 05:33 1,095,130k 3,286k -0.09 17. ... exf3
39/57 05:52 1,163,766k 3,298k -0.12 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bf2 Rxe1 21.Rxe1 Re8 22.Rxe8+ Qxe8 23.g3 b4 24.Qf5 Nd7 25.Bg4 Nf6 26.Qc8 Qxc8 27.Bxc8 a5 28.Be1 Ne4 29.Kf1 g6 30.Bg4 Nc3 31.a4 f5 32.Be2 Ne4 33.Bf3 Nf6 34.Kf2 Kf7 35.Bd2 Nd7 36.Bg5 Nf6 37.h3 Nd7 38.Be2
40/55 06:46 1,344,838k 3,305k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bf2 Rxe1 21.Rxe1 Re8 22.g3 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 Ng4 24.Qe4 Nf6 25.Qd3 Ng4 26.Bd1 Ne5 27.Qe4 g6 28.Kg2 bxc4 29.bxc4 f5 30.Qe2 Qe7 31.Bd2 Kf7 32.a4 Nd7 33.a5 Qxe2+ 34.Bxe2 h5 35.Kf3 Ne5+ 36.Kf2 Bc7 37.Be3 Nd7 38.Kf3 Ke7 39.h3 Bxa5
41/53 07:25 1,473,267k 3,306k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bf2 Rxe1 21.Rxe1 Re8 22.g3 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 Ng4 24.Qe4 Nf6 25.Qd3 Ng4 26.Bd1 Ne5 27.Qe4 bxc4 28.bxc4 Qe7 29.Bc3 g6 30.Be2 f5 31.Qe3 Kf7 32.Qh6 Kg8 33.Kf2 Nd7 34.Qe3 Kf7 35.Qxe7+ Kxe7 36.Ke3 Be5 37.Bd2 Bd4+ 38.Kd3 Kd6 39.Bf4+ Be5 40.Be3 Bf6 41.a4 Be5 42.Bd2 Bf6
42/52 09:31 1,901,962k 3,330k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 b5 19.b3 Qd7 20.Bf2 Rxe1 21.Rxe1 Re8 22.g3 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 Ng4 24.Qe4 Nf6 25.Qd3 Ng4 26.Bd1 Ne5 27.Qe4 bxc4 28.bxc4 f5 29.Qe2 Qe7 30.Bd2 g6 31.Kg2 Kf7 32.h3 h5 33.Bc2 Nd7 34.Qxe7+ Kxe7 35.Bd3 Be5 36.Kf3 Bd6 37.Bg5+ Ke8 38.Be2 Kf7 39.Bf4 Bxf4 40.Kxf4 Kf6 41.a3
43/64 15:05 3,005,368k 3,318k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re7 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Rxe7 Rxe7 22.Re1 b5 23.b3 Rxe1+ 24.Bxe1 Ng4 25.Bd2 g6 26.Be2 bxc4 27.bxc4 Ne5 28.Kg2 f6 29.Bd1 Qe7 30.Qe4 f5 31.Qe2 Kf7 32.h3 h5 33.Bc2 Nd7 34.Qxe7+ Kxe7 35.Bg5+ Kf7 36.Bd3 Be5 37.Kf3 Bd4 38.Bf1 Bf6 39.Bf4 Ke7 40.Be2 Ne5+ 41.Ke3
44/54- 16:04 3,203,213k 3,321k -0.15 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
44/58+ 21:20 4,276,414k 3,340k -0.08 17. ... exf3
44/65 22:32 4,527,914k 3,349k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Kg2 Ng4 22.Rxe5 Nxe5 23.Be2 Ng4 24.Qd3 g6 25.Re1 Ne5 26.Qc2 b5 27.b3 f5 28.Bd1 bxc4 29.bxc4 Nf7 30.Rxe8+ Qxe8 31.Qd3 Qe7 32.Bf3 Ne5 33.Qe2 Kf7 34.Bf4 Nd7 35.Qxe7+ Kxe7 36.Bg5+ Kf7 37.Be2 Be5 38.Kf3 Bf6 39.Kf4 Bxg5+ 40.Kxg5 Ne5 41.h3 Kg7 42.g4 fxg4 43.hxg4
45/64- 25:24 5,111,843k 3,353k -0.15 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
45/64+ 29:55 6,010,377k 3,348k -0.08 17. ... exf3
45/65 39:38 7,908,458k 3,326k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re5 20.Bf2 Rf5 21.Kg2 h5 22.Be3 Re8 23.Bd2 Rxe1 24.Bxe1 b5 25.b3 b4 26.Bd2 Re5 27.Qd3 g6 28.Be3 Nh7 29.Bf4 Re8 30.Qd2 Nf6 31.Bg5 Nh7 32.Be3 a5 33.Bf4 Nf6 34.Rf2 Be5 35.Be3 Bd6 36.Bg5 Nh7 37.Bh6 Nf6 38.Re2 Qf5 39.Rxe8+ Nxe8 40.Bg5 Nf6 41.Bf4 Bxf4 42.Qxf4
46/60- 44:32 8,881,818k 3,324k -0.15 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3
46/60+ 45:52 9,147,656k 3,324k -0.08 17. ... exf3
46/62 50:29 10,029,198k 3,311k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Bc3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 b5 24.Bc3 bxc4 25.Bxf6 gxf6 26.Qxc4 Qf5 27.Kg2 a5 28.b3 Qe5 29.Qg4+ Kf8 30.Qh4 Kg7 31.Kh3 f5 32.Qg5+ Kf8 33.Bg2 f4 34.Qxe5 Bxe5 35.g4 Kg7 36.g5 Kg6 37.Kg4 f3 38.Bxf3 f5+ 39.gxf6 Bxh2 40.Be4+ Kxf6 41.Bxh7 Bd6 42.Be4 Ke5 43.Bg2 Kf6 44.Kh5 Ke5 45.Kg6 Kd4
47/64 54:56 10,857,079k 3,294k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Bc3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 b5 24.Bc3 bxc4 25.Bxf6 gxf6 26.Qxc4 Qf5 27.Kg2 a5 28.b3 Qe5 29.Qg4+ Kf8 30.Qh4 Kg7 31.Kh3 f5 32.Qg5+ Kf8 33.Bg2 f4 34.Qxe5 Bxe5 35.g4 Kg7 36.g5 Kg6 37.Kg4 f3 38.Bxf3 f5+ 39.gxf6 Bxh2 40.Be4+ Kxf6 41.Bxh7 Bd6 42.Bg8 Ke5 43.Kg5 Be7+ 44.Kh6 Bh4 45.Kg6 Be7 46.Be6 Bd6 47.Kh6 Kd4
48/66 1:00:27 11,910,277k 3,283k -0.08 17. ... exf3 18.Bxf3 Qd7 19.g3 Re5 20.Bd2 Rae8 21.Bc3 Rxe1 22.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 23.Bxe1 b5 24.Bc3 bxc4 25.Bxf6 gxf6 26.Qxc4 Qf5 27.Kg2 a5 28.b3 Qe5 29.Qg4+ Kf8 30.Qh4 Kg7 31.Kh3 f5 32.Qg5+ Kf8 33.Bg2 f4 34.Qxe5 Bxe5 35.g4 Ke7 36.g5 f6 37.Kg4 f3 38.Bxf3 Bxh2 39.Kf5 fxg5 40.Kxg5 Kd6 41.Kf5 Be5 42.Ke4 h6 43.Kd3 Bg7 44.Kc4 Bd4 45.Kb5 h5 46.Bxh5 Kxd5

black played 17...b5?

After 17...b5 18.b3

[D]r2qr1k1/5ppp/p2b1n2/1ppP4/2P1pP2/1P2B3/P1Q1B1PP/4RRK1 b - - 0 18

Stockfish_18013111_x64_modern:
1/1 00:00 106 53k -0.51 18. ... bxc4 19.bxc4
2/2 00:00 1k 529k -0.44 18. ... Rb8 19.g3 bxc4 20.Bxc4
3/3 00:00 1k 652k -0.39 18. ... bxc4 19.Bxc4 h6
4/4 00:00 2k 785k -0.32 18. ... bxc4 19.bxc4 Rb8 20.g3
5/5 00:00 3k 967k -0.37 18. ... Rb8 19.Rb1 g6 20.g3 bxc4
6/6 00:00 6k 1,463k -0.11 18. ... bxc4 19.bxc4 Qd7 20.g3 Qh3 21.f5
7/7 00:00 8k 1,625k -0.35 18. ... bxc4 19.bxc4 Qc8 20.f5 Rb8 21.g3 Qd7
8/8 00:00 20k 1,796k -0.32 18. ... h6 19.g3 bxc4 20.bxc4 Qd7 21.Kg2 Rab8 22.Rb1
9/10 00:00 32k 1,793k -0.26 18. ... bxc4 19.bxc4 Qd7 20.h3 Rab8 21.a4 h6 22.a5 Red8
10/14 00:00 68k 1,945k -0.26 18. ... Rb8 19.h3 Qd7 20.Rb1 Qc8 21.a4 bxc4 22.bxc4 Qd7 23.Rxb8 Rxb8
11/13 00:00 121k 2,047k -0.28 18. ... Rb8 19.h3 Qd7 20.Rb1 h6 21.Kh2 Red8 22.g3 Rbc8 23.Kg2 Qb7 24.Kg1
12/14 00:00 199k 2,209k -0.26 18. ... Rb8 19.h3 Qd7 20.Rb1 h6 21.a3 Rec8 22.Rfe1 Rd8 23.a4 Re8 24.Rf1
13/14 00:00 264k 2,293k -0.27 18. ... Rb8 19.h3 Qd7 20.Kh2 bxc4 21.bxc4 Rb4 22.Rb1 Reb8 23.Rxb4 Rxb4 24.g3 Rb8 25.Kg2
14/16 00:00 423k 2,457k -0.32 18. ... Rb8 19.h3 Qd7 20.Kh2 bxc4 21.bxc4 Rb7 22.Rb1 Reb8 23.g3 g6 24.Kg2 Kg7 25.g4 Rxb1
15/21 00:00 994k 2,555k -0.29 18. ... Qd7 19.h3 h6 20.Kh2 Rab8 21.g3 bxc4 22.bxc4 Rb4 23.Rb1 Qa4 24.Rb3 Reb8 25.Rfb1 Qd7 26.Rxb4 cxb4 27.Kg2 a5 28.g4
16/24 00:00 1,696k 2,676k -0.34 18. ... Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.Kh2 bxc4 21.bxc4 Rb4 22.Rb1 Reb8 23.Rxb4 Rxb4 24.Rb1 a5 25.Rxb4 axb4 26.g3 Qa7 27.Kg2 Qa5 28.Bd1 Qc7
17/26 00:01 4,777k 2,804k -0.40 18. ... Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.Kh2 bxc4 21.bxc4 Rb4 22.Rb1 Reb8 23.g3 Qb7 24.Rxb4 Qxb4 25.Bc1 h5 26.Kg2 Qb6 27.Re1 h4 28.gxh4 Qb4 29.Rg1 Qb1 30.Qxb1 Rxb1
18/20 00:01 4,829k 2,802k -0.38 18. ... Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.Kh2 bxc4 21.bxc4 Rb4 22.Rb1 Reb8 23.g3 Qb7 24.Rxb4 Qxb4 25.Bc1 h5 26.Kg2 Qb6 27.Bd1 Qb1 28.Qxb1 Rxb1
19/24 00:01 4,885k 2,798k -0.38 18. ... Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.Kh2 bxc4 21.bxc4 Rb4 22.Rb1 Reb8 23.g3 Qb7 24.Rxb4 Qxb4 25.Bc1 Qb6 26.Kg2 Qb1 27.Qxb1 Rxb1 28.Ba3 Rxf1 29.Kxf1 h6
20/27 00:02 5,589k 2,781k -0.32 18. ... Qd7 19.h3 Rab8 20.Kh2 bxc4 21.Bxc4 a5 22.g3 Qb7 23.Rd1 Qd7 24.a4 Qc8 25.Bb5 Rd8 26.Kg2 Be7 27.Bc4 Rd6 28.g4 h6
21/29 00:06 18,523k 2,841k -0.47 18. ... Rb8 19.g3 Qd7 20.Kg2 h5 21.h3 Rb7 22.Rc1 bxc4 23.bxc4 Qc7 24.Rb1 Rxb1 25.Qxb1 Rb8 26.Qc2 Qb6 27.Bc1 Qb1 28.Qxb1 Rxb1 29.Ba3 Rxf1 30.Kxf1
22/29+ 00:07 20,854k 2,848k -0.40 18. ... Rb8
22/30+ 00:10 29,306k 2,866k -0.32 18. ... Rb8
22/30 00:10 29,472k 2,866k -0.35 18. ... Rb8 19.g3 Qc8 20.Kg2 Nd7 21.a4 bxa4 22.bxa4 f5 23.a5 Qc7 24.Rb1 Rb4 25.Bd2 Reb8 26.Bxb4 cxb4 27.Qd2 b3 28.Qc3 Nc5 29.h3 Qd7
23/27- 00:10 29,641k 2,865k -0.42 18. ... Rb8 19.g3
23/29- 00:12 34,936k 2,878k -0.50 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1
23/31 00:15 45,260k 2,861k -0.55 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1 Qc8 20.Bb2 Qf5 21.Bd1 a5 22.g3 a4 23.Rf2 h5 24.Rfe2 axb3 25.axb3 bxc4 26.bxc4 h4 27.Bxf6 gxf6 28.Rxe4 Rxe4 29.Qxe4 Qxe4 30.Rxe4 hxg3
24/33- 00:23 67,557k 2,859k -0.63 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1
24/34+ 00:26 76,144k 2,864k -0.55 18. ... Rb8
24/34 00:28 81,441k 2,869k -0.62 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1 Qc8 20.Bd1 h5 21.Bb2 Qf5 22.Bc3 Qg6 23.Qf2 Ng4 24.Qg3 e3 25.Bxg4 Qxg4 26.Rxe3 Qxg3 27.Rxg3 g6 28.Rg5 bxc4 29.f5 Kh7 30.bxc4 Re2 31.fxg6+ fxg6 32.h3 Rc2
25/40 00:40 114,169k 2,822k -0.65 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1 Qc7 20.g3 Qd7 21.Bb2 Qh3 22.Bd1 bxc4 23.Qxc4 Qh6 24.Bxf6 Qxf6 25.Rxe4 Rxe4 26.Qxe4 Qb2 27.Qa4 Qd2 28.Qxa6 Qxd5 29.Bf3 Qd2 30.Qe2 Qxe2 31.Bxe2
26/38+ 01:00 166,027k 2,756k -0.57 18. ... Qc7
26/40+ 01:24 227,979k 2,708k -0.50 18. ... Rb8
26/40 01:25 232,773k 2,709k -0.53 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1 Qc8 20.Bd1 Qf5 21.Bb2 Qg6 22.Re3 h5 23.Be2 bxc4 24.Qxc4 a5 25.Qa6 Rbd8 26.Rg3 Qh6 27.Rh3 Rf8 28.Qc4 Rfe8 29.g3 Qg6 30.f5 Qh6 31.Bxf6 Qxf6 32.Rxh5 Qd4+ 33.Kg2
27/36- 01:34 254,880k 2,704k -0.60 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1
27/42+ 01:39 268,021k 2,699k -0.53 18. ... Rb8
27/42 01:40 270,947k 2,700k -0.60 18. ... Rb8 19.Bd1 Nd7 20.Bg4 Nf6 21.Bh3 Qe7 22.g3 h5 23.Bf5 bxc4 24.bxc4 h4 25.gxh4 Nh5 26.Qe2 g6 27.Bg4 Qxh4 28.Bxh5 Qxh5 29.f5 Be5 30.Bxc5 Rbc8 31.fxg6 fxg6 32.Qxh5 gxh5 33.Be3 Rxc4 34.Rf5
28/37+ 01:43 281,050k 2,705k -0.53 18. ... Rb8
28/37- 01:52 304,727k 2,707k -0.68 18. ... Rb8 19.Bd1
28/42+ 01:57 319,060k 2,711k -0.57 18. ... Rb8
28/48 02:48 455,375k 2,701k -0.58 18. ... Qc7 19.Bc1 Re7 20.g3 Qd7 21.Bb2 Ne8 22.Bd1 f5 23.g4 Rb8 24.Qg2 bxc4 25.bxc4 Qc7 26.Bb3 Bxf4 27.Qf2 Be5 28.Qxf5 Nf6 29.Bxe5 Qxe5 30.g5 Nd7 31.Bc2 Rb2 32.Rxe4 Qxf5 33.Rxf5 Rxe4 34.Bxe4 Rxa2
29/38- 02:57 479,300k 2,696k -0.66 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1
29/38- 03:06 502,505k 2,696k -0.73 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1
29/41+ 03:08 509,346k 2,697k -0.66 18. ... Qc7
29/41 03:11 515,630k 2,697k -0.65 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1 Re7 20.g3 Qc8 21.Kg2 Rb8 22.Bd2 Qf5 23.Bc3 Rbe8 24.Qe2 Qg6 25.Bc2 b4 26.Bb2 h5 27.f5 Qg5 28.Qe3 Qxe3 29.Rxe3 Be5 30.Bxe5 Rxe5 31.h3 Rd8 32.Rfe1 Rde8 33.d6 Rxf5 34.Bxe4
30/48 03:34 579,705k 2,697k -0.62 18. ... Qc7 19.g3 Qc8 20.Bc1 Re7 21.Bb2 Qf5 22.Bd1 Qg6 23.Bxf6 Qxf6 24.Rxe4 Rae8 25.Rfe1 Rxe4 26.Rxe4 Rxe4 27.Qxe4 g6 28.Kg2 bxc4 29.Qxc4 Qa1 30.Qc2 h5 31.Be2 Qd4 32.Bf3 h4 33.Qe2 hxg3
31/43+ 03:48 617,413k 2,701k -0.54 18. ... Qc7
31/43- 04:32 736,478k 2,702k -0.69 18. ... Qc7 19.g3
31/47+ 04:54 794,951k 2,703k -0.58 18. ... Qc7
31/47 05:24 882,500k 2,716k -0.58 18. ... Qc7 19.g3 Qc8 20.Bc1 Re7 21.Bb2 Qf5 22.Bd1 h5 23.Bxf6 Qxf6 24.Rxe4 Rxe4 25.Qxe4 h4 26.Kg2 bxc4 27.bxc4 Rb8 28.Bb3 g6 29.f5 g5 30.gxh4 Kf8 31.Re1 gxh4 32.Kh1 Qe7 33.Qxe7+ Bxe7 34.Kg2 Bd6 35.f6 Re8 36.Rxe8+ Kxe8 37.Kh3 Be5 38.Ba4+ Kd8 39.Kxh4
32/25- 05:29 896,095k 2,718k -0.69 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1
32/27+ 05:30 897,736k 2,718k -0.58 18. ... Qc7
32/43 05:38 922,672k 2,722k -0.59 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1 Re7 20.g3 Qc8 21.Bd2 Qf5 22.Kg2 Rb8 23.h3 h5 24.Re3 Qh7 25.Bc3 Qg6 26.Qf2 Rbb7 27.Kh2 Rb8 28.a4 b4 29.Bb2 Rbe8 30.Qd2 Nd7 31.Qe2 Nf6 32.Rg1 a5 33.Bxf6 Qxf6 34.Qxh5
33/45- 05:52 960,004k 2,722k -0.67 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1
33/45+ 06:23 1,042,025k 2,720k -0.59 18. ... Qc7
33/46 06:35 1,073,060k 2,716k -0.62 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1 Re7 20.g3 Qd7 21.Qg2 Rb8 22.Bc1 h5 23.Re3 Ree8 24.Rfe1 Qf5 25.Bb2 Re7 26.Bc3 Rbe8 27.h3 Qg6 28.Rf1 Rb8 29.Qf2 Rbe8 30.Kh1 Qh6 31.a4 Qg6 32.Kh2 b4 33.Bb2 Nh7 34.Qe2 Nf6 35.Kh1 Qh6 36.Qf2
34/47 06:48 1,105,217k 2,706k -0.64 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1 Re7 20.g3 Qd7 21.Qg2 Rb8 22.Bc1 h5 23.Re3 Ree8 24.Rfe1 Qf5 25.Bb2 Re7 26.Bc3 Rbe8 27.h3 Qg6 28.Rf1 Rb8 29.Qf2 Rbe8 30.Kh2 Rb8 31.Kg2 a5 32.a4 bxa4 33.bxa4 h4 34.Be2 Rb4 35.g4 Nh5 36.Qxh4 Nxf4+ 37.Rxf4 Bxf4 38.Qxe7 Bxe3
35/43 07:20 1,192,484k 2,707k -0.62 18. ... Qc7 19.Bd1 Re7 20.g3 Qd7 21.Qg2 Rb8 22.Bc1 h5 23.Re3 Ree8 24.Rfe1 Qf5 25.Bb2 Re7 26.Bc3 Rbe8 27.h3 Qg6 28.Rf1 Qh6 29.Qf2 Qg6 30.Kh2 Qh6 31.a4 Qg6 32.Kh1 Qh6 33.Kg2 Qg6 34.Be2 b4 35.Bb2 Rd8 36.Kh1 Nd7 37.g4 hxg4 38.Bxg4
36/54 11:41 1,915,149k 2,730k -0.65 18. ... Re7 19.Bd1 Qc7 20.g3 Qd7 21.Qg2 Rb8 22.Bc1 h5 23.Bb2 Qf5 24.Bc3 Qg6 25.Re3 Ra8 26.h3 Rb8 27.Qf2 Ree8 28.Kh1 Rb7 29.a3 Qh6 30.Kg2 Qg6 31.Kg1 Nd7 32.f5 Qg5 33.h4 Qh6 34.Rfe1 Nf6 35.Bc2 bxc4 36.bxc4
37/42 12:33 2,059,052k 2,733k -0.65 18. ... Re7 19.Bd1 Qc7 20.g3 Qd7 21.Qg2 Rb8 22.Bc1 h5 23.Bb2 Qf5 24.Bc3 Qg6 25.Re3 Ra8 26.h3 Rb8 27.Qf2 Ree8 28.Kh1 Rb7 29.Kh2 Qh6 30.Kg2 Qg6 31.Kh1 Rbe7 32.a4 Qh6 33.Kg2 Qg6 34.Kg1 h4 35.Kh1 bxc4 36.bxc4 hxg3 37.Qxg3 Qh6
38/39 14:12 2,334,268k 2,739k -0.67 18. ... Re7 19.Bd1 Qc7 20.g3 Qd7 21.Qg2 Rb8 22.Bc1 h5 23.Bb2 Qf5 24.Bc3 Qg6 25.Re3 Rd8 26.h3 Rb8 27.Qf2 Ree8 28.Kh1 Rb7 29.Kh2 Qh6 30.Kg2 Qg6 31.Kh1 Rbe7 32.a4 Qh6 33.Kg2 Qg6 34.Kh2 Qh6 35.Kg1 Nd7 36.g4 hxg4 37.hxg4 bxc4
39/54+ 16:38 2,765,441k 2,768k -0.59 18. ... Re7
39/60+ 26:59 4,520,882k 2,791k -0.52 18. ... Rb8
39/60- 39:36 6,666,765k 2,805k -0.74 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1
39/60+ 40:06 6,755,605k 2,807k -0.57 18. ... Rb8
39/67 42:17 7,140,969k 2,815k -0.61 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1 Qc7 20.Bd1 h5 21.Bd2 Re7 22.Kh1 Rbe8 23.Bc3 Ng4 24.h3 Nh6 25.f5 Be5 26.Rxe4 Bxc3 27.Rxe7 Qxe7 28.Qxc3 Nxf5 29.Rxf5 Qe1+ 30.Qxe1 Rxe1+ 31.Kh2 Rxd1 32.Rxh5 bxc4 33.bxc4 f6 34.Rf5 Kf7 35.d6 Rxd6 36.Rxc5 Ke6 37.Rc7 g5 38.c5 Rd5 39.Rc6+ Ke7 40.Rxa6 Rxc5 41.a4 Rc3 42.a5 Ra3 43.Ra8 Ke6 44.a6 Kd7 45.g4 Ra2+ 46.Kg3 Ra3+ 47.Kg2 Kc6
40/63- 42:55 7,253,609k 2,817k -0.68 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1
40/63 43:43 7,392,500k 2,818k -0.69 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1 Qc7 20.Bd1 h5 21.Bd2 Re7 22.Kh1 Rbe8 23.Bc3 Ng4 24.h3 Nh6 25.f5 Be5 26.Rxe4 Bxc3 27.Rxe7 Qxe7 28.Qxc3 Nxf5 29.Rxf5 Qe1+ 30.Qxe1 Rxe1+ 31.Kh2 Rxd1 32.Rxh5 f6 33.Rf5 bxc4 34.bxc4 Kf7 35.d6 Rxd6 36.Rxc5 Ke6 37.Rc7 g5 38.c5 Rd5 39.Rc6+ Ke7 40.Rxa6 Rxc5 41.a4 Rc3 42.a5 Ra3 43.Ra7+ Ke6 44.a6 Kd6 45.Ra8 Kc7 46.a7 Kb6 47.Rf8 Rxa7 48.Rxf6+ Kc5
41/65+ 47:36 8,074,486k 2,826k -0.62 18. ... Rb8
41/65+ 48:44 8,274,058k 2,829k -0.54 18. ... Rb8
41/65 52:33 8,938,581k 2,835k -0.59 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1 Qc7 20.Bd1 h5 21.Bd2 a5 22.Kh1 Qe7 23.cxb5 Rxb5 24.Be2 Rbb8 25.Bc4 Bc7 26.Bc1 h4 27.Qc3 Rbd8 28.Bb2 Qd7 29.Re3 Qg4 30.d6 Bxd6 31.Qe1 Be7 32.a4 Qf5 33.Re2 Rd6 34.Be5 Rdd8 35.Bb5 Rf8 36.Qxh4 Nd5 37.Qg3 g6 38.Bc4 Bf6 39.Bxd5 Rxd5 40.Bxf6 Qxf6
42/60- 55:28 9,455,311k 2,841k -0.66 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1
42/60- 57:20 9,782,884k 2,843k -0.74 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1
42/62+ 58:08 9,926,841k 2,846k -0.66 18. ... Rb8
42/62 1:16:39 13,141,619k 2,857k -0.63 18. ... Rb8 19.Bc1 Qc7 20.Kh1 Qe7 21.Bd1 bxc4 22.bxc4 Nd7 23.Bg4 Nf6 24.Bf3 h5 25.Kg1 Qd7 26.Bd1 Qf5 27.Qc3 Rb6 28.Qg3 Nd7 29.Bb3 Be7 30.Qf2 Bf6 31.Be3 Rc8 32.Rb1 Rb4 33.a3 Rbb8 34.Bc2 g6 35.g3 Bb2 36.Qd2 Nf6 37.Ba4 Bxa3 38.Bc6 Rxb1 39.Rxb1 Ng4

Leo
Posts: 832
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:55 pm
Location: USA/Minnesota
Full name: Leo

Re: Cerebellum, correspondence chess and me

Post by Leo » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:40 am

Ovyron wrote:
Leo wrote:Here is what Cerebellums website says :

"The book is always calculated with the newest Version. When the tree search is being improved, there is no big problem, Stockfish basically only searches more efficient and faster. When the evaluation function changes, in theory you would have to recalculate the whole book. But because you do not calculate only new lines, but regularly already existing lines are extended too, the book only needs some time to adapt to the new evaluation. I would say around a week. So there are really positions in the book which where calculated with a 2 year old Stockfish, but that is no problem, because they are now "hidden" under a big amount of extended positions, which now dominate the calculation of the tree, because the new nodes are always closer to the terminating nodes of the tree."
COW Books can adapt immediately by using the "EPD->Export Positions" and "EPD->Analyze with engine" features. You don't have to wait weeks, as you can decide if you only update new lines or if you update every node of the book.

Watch this video to get an idea:

http://www.bookup.com/videos/overnight-analysis/

For instance, I downloaded the PGNs from Carlos Canavessi's LS Elite League and Superfinal, I import them into a Bookup's Ebook up to 84 ply, then I "EPD->Export Positions" to get all leaf nodes into an analysis file, I start up Sugar xPRO as my engine (I use this because it automatically uses all my cores), I use "EPD->Analyze with engine", then I move to the root position and Backsolve...

I get scores for all lines. It will show that some moves are winning if there's no alternative move that avoids the losing position. I compare those lines with the ones from my Monster Book that already have deviations that don't lose and include it into the book...

BAM!

Image

I have a book that includes all moves played up until 84 plies in each of the games of those tournaments and they have a score that the engine gave, that was backsolved to the root automatically.

And if Stockfish 9 is released, I could, in theory, use "EPD->Analyze with engine" (I don't even need to export the positions again, I already have them) and all the leaf nodes would be updated with Stockfish scores, not only new lines.

Now, I feel awkward to be promoting what is basically Cerebellum's competition in a Cerebellum's thread, but perhaps it is important to know that fully capable solutions already exists, with the difference that with COW you have to start from scratch, while Cerebellum already has its book full of mainlines, but it would be possible to turn Cerebellum into a COW book and have updated scores on the fly without waiting for new lines to arrive.
This all seems incredibly interesting. I had never heard of Mike Leahy's Chess Openings Wizard. It will take me some time to investigate. It sounds like you already have something like cerebellum. The 2 together would maybe be even more powerful.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

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