2 testpositions

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Spliffjiffer
Posts: 153
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Location: Germany

2 testpositions

Post by Spliffjiffer » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:41 pm

there are a lot of testpositions that the engines of today are not able to solve at all..we all know that...the 1. position should be solvable for engines (i strongly recommend 6-men TB's) of our days...i analysed that position some time ago extraordinary deep and am absolutely convinced that the given move is the only drawing move that exists !


[d]8/R7/4kpp1/2n4p/7P/p5P1/3N1PK1/r7 w - - 5 1
only move 1.Nc4 !! (draw)..i think your engines will have some trouble to find that move...i dont have any 6-men TB's installed, so im curious how long it takes to find it for your monsters :-)

the 2. position is an "engine-killer"-position so dont wonder when your engines will be clueless and give 0.00 or sth like that...i wonder how long it will take until engines will solve such positions, therefore i give 2 mainlines along with it that should help to recognize that there is no way out:
[d]7q/b1p5/1p1Npkb1/pPP2ppP/P1P5/3B2P1/5P1R/K3R3 w - - 0 1
1. hxg6 Qxh2 2. Rxe6+ Kxe6 3. g7 Qh1+ 4. Kb2 Qa8 5. Bxf5+ Kf6 6. Nc8 Kxg7 7. c6 Kf6 8. Bg4 Ke5 9. Kc3 Ke4 (9. .. Qb8 10. Kd3 Qa8 11. Bd7 Qb8 12. Ke3 Qa8 13. Kf3 Kf6 14. Kg4 Kg6 15. f4 gxf4 16. gxf4 Kf6 17. f5 Qb8 18. Kh5 Qa8 19. Kh6 Qb8 20. Kh7 Kf7 21. Be6+ Kf6 22. Kg8 Qa8 23. Kf8 Qb8 24. Ke8 Qa8 25. Kd8 Bb8 26. Kd7 Ba7 27. Kxc7 Bb8+ 28. Kxb6 Bg3 29. c7) 10. Kd2 Kd4 11. Be6 Ke5 12. Bd7 Kd4 13. f4 gxf4 14. gxf4 Ke4 15. f5 Ke5 16. Ke3 Kf6 17. Kf4 Bb8 18. Kg4 Ba7 19. Kh5 Bb8 20. Kh6 Ba7 21. Kh7 Qb8 22. Kg8 Qa8 23. Kf8 Bb8 24. Ke8 Ba7 25. Kd8 Bb8 26. Be6 Ba7 27. Kxc7 Bb8+ 28. Kxb6 Bg3 29. c7 *

this is just an example how clueless engines can be, many other people can provide (and provided, this example does not came from me) tons of similar positions were still only human brains can solve the task ;-)
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

zullil
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Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: 2 testpositions

Post by zullil » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:21 pm

Spliffjiffer wrote:there are a lot of testpositions that the engines of today are not able to solve at all..we all know that...the 1. position should be solvable for engines (i strongly recommend 6-men TB's) of our days...i analysed that position some time ago extraordinary deep and am absolutely convinced that the given move is the only drawing move that exists !


[d]8/R7/4kpp1/2n4p/7P/p5P1/3N1PK1/r7 w - - 5 1
only move 1.Nc4 !! (draw)..i think your engines will have some trouble to find that move...i dont have any 6-men TB's installed, so im curious how long it takes to find it for your monsters :-)
Cfish with 6-man tables finds Nc4:

Code: Select all

info depth 35 seldepth 59 multipv 1 score cp -336 nodes 3634288274 nps 49053669 hashfull 479 tbhits 12591090 time 74088 pv d2c4 a3a2 c4e3 c5d3 a7a6 e6e5 f2f4 e5e4 e3c2 a1c1 a6a4 d3b4 a4b4 e4d3 c2a1 c1a1 b4a4 d3c3 a4a6 c3b4 a6a7 b4b5 a7a3 b5c4 a3a6 c4c3 a6c6 c3b4 c6a6 f6f5 a6a7 b4b3 a7b7 b3c4 b7a7 c4b4 a7a6 b4c3 a6c6 c3b2 c6b6 b2a3 b6a6 a3b3 a6b6 b3a4 b6a6 a4b5 a6a8 b5c4
and later, with lower evaluation:

Code: Select all

info depth 60 seldepth 85 multipv 1 score cp -247 nodes 37272705223 nps 49318307 hashfull 999 tbhits 231353159 time 755758 pv d2c4 a3a2 c4e3 c5d3 a7a6 e6e5 f2f4 e5e4 e3c2 a1c1 a6a4 d3b4 a4b4 e4d3 c2a1 c1a1 b4a4 d3c3 a4a8 c3b2 a8b8 b2a3 b8a8 a3b3 a8b8 b3c4 b8c8 c4d5 c8a8 d5c6 a8a4 c6b6 a4a8 b6c7 a8a4 c7d6 a4a6 d6c5 a6a8 c5b4 a8a6 b4b3 a6b6 b3a3 b6a6 a3b4 a6a8 b4c5 a8a7 c5d4 a7a4 d4d3 a4a6 d3e2 a6a4 e2d2 a4a6 f6f5 a6d6 d2c2 d6c6 c2b2 c6b6 b2a3 b6a6 a3b4 a6a8 b4c3 a8c8 c3d3 c8d8 d3e2 d8e8 e2d2 e8d8 d2c2 d8c8 c2b3 c8b8 b3c4 b8a8 c4d5 a8a4 d5c5 a4a6

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MikeGL
Posts: 785
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: 2 testpositions

Post by MikeGL » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:49 am

Saw also the tough position 2 at
http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 25&t=61526

Position 74 of hard2016beta6.epd, Poor Fish thread linked above.
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Dann Corbit
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Re: 2 testpositions

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:55 am

MikeGL wrote:Saw also the tough position 2 at
http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 25&t=61526

Position 74 of hard2016beta6.epd, Poor Fish thread linked above.
This one ? :
[d]1k1n4/1p1b1p2/1Bp1pPp1/1PP1P3/8/6P1/8/1K6 w - - acd 55; acs 211; bm Bc7+; c3 "Bc7+"; ce 32714; dm 27; id "yacpdb id 293779"; pm Bc7+; pv Bc7+ Ka7 Bb8+ Ka8 b6 Kxb8 Kc1 Ka8 Kd2 Bc8 Ke2 Bd7 Kf3 Be8 Kf4 Kb8 Kg5 Bd7 g4 Kc8 Kh6 Be8 Kg7 Kd7 Kf8 g5 Kg7 Kc8 Kh6 Kb8 Kxg5 Ka8 Kh6 Bd7 Kg7 Bc8 Kf8 Bd7 Ke7 Bc8 Kxd8 Kb8 g5 Ka8 Kc7 Bd7 Kxd7 Kb8 g6 fxg6 f7 g5 f8=Q+;
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jdart
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Re: 2 testpositions

Post by jdart » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:31 am

He means he saw he 2nd position in the original post before. The one you mention is position #2 in Vincent's test suite.

Stockfish 9 solves that one pretty quickly.

--Jon

MonteCarlo
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:59 pm

Re: 2 testpositions

Post by MonteCarlo » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:30 am

What's so hard about position 2?

FEN: 7q/b1p5/1p1Npkb1/pPP2ppP/P1P5/3B2P1/5P1R/K3R3 w - - 0 1

Stockfish_18021223_x64_bmi2:
1/1 00:00 96 48k +8.55 h5xg6
2/2 00:00 152 76k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
3/3 00:00 208 104k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6
4/4 00:00 264 132k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6
5/5 00:00 339 170k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7
6/7 00:00 445 223k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2
7/8 00:00 559 186k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8
8/11 00:00 17k 925k +0.71 Nd6-c8 Qh8xc8 h5xg6 Qc8-d7 Re1-d1 Kf6xg6 c5xb6 Qd7-d4+ Ka1-a2
9/13 00:00 29k 967k +1.11 c5xb6 Ba7xb6 Nd6-b7 Bg6xh5 Ka1-a2 Bb6-d4 Nb7xa5 Qh8-a8 Rh2xh5
10/13 00:00 45k 1,101k +0.94 Nd6-c8 Qh8xc8 h5xg6 Qc8-d8 Re1-d1 Qd8-d4+ Ka1-a2 Qd4xc5 Rh2-h7 Qc5-b4 g6-g7 Qb4xa4+ Ka2-b2
11/19 00:00 79k 1,197k +8.17 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-h7 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Bf5xh7 Kf6xg7 Nd6-c8 Ba7-b8 Nc8-e7 c7-c6
12/21 00:00 80k 1,208k +8.17 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-h7 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Bf5xh7 Kf6xg7 Nd6-c8 Ba7-b8 Nc8-e7 c7-c6 c5xb6
13/22 00:00 81k 1,207k +8.17 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h7 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Bf5xh7 Kf6xg7 Nd6-c8 Ba7-b8 Nc8-e7 c7-c6 c5xb6 c6xb5 a4xb5
14/22 00:00 82k 1,208k +8.40 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h7 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Bf5xh7 Kf6xg7 Nd6-c8 Ba7-b8 Nc8-e7 Kg7xh7 Ne7-c6 b6xc5 Nc6xb8 Kh7-h6 Ka1-b2
15/23 00:00 85k 1,213k +8.54 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h7 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Bf5xh7 Kf6xg7 Nd6-c8 Ba7-b8 Nc8-e7 Kg7xh7 Ka1-b2 Kh7-g7 Ne7-c6 b6xc5 Nc6xb8 Kg7-f6 Nb8-c6
16/26 00:00 96k 1,253k +8.40 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Qa8xc8 Bf5xc8 Ke7-f7 g7-g8Q+ Kf7xg8 c5-c6 Kg8-f7 Bc8-d7 Ba7-b8 Kb2-c3 Bb8-a7 Kc3-d3
17/28 00:00 100k 1,263k +8.48 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Qa8xc8 Bf5xc8 Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 f2-f4 Kg7-f6 Kb2-c3 Kf6-e7 Kc3-d3 Ke7-d8 f4xg5 Kd8xc8
18/34 00:00 109k 1,272k +8.40 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 g7-g8Q+ Kf7xg8 c5-c6 Kg8-f7 Kb2-c3 Kf7-e8 Kc3-d4 Ke8-d8 Kd4-e5 Qa8xc8 Bf5xc8 Kd8xc8 f2-f4 Kc8-d8 Ke5-f6 g5-g4 f4-f5 Kd8-e8 Kf6-g7 Ke8-e7 f5-f6+ Ke7-e6
19/39 00:00 119k 1,306k +8.39 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 g5-g4 Bd7xg4 Kg6-h6 f2-f4 Qa8-b8 Kd3-e4 Qb8-a8 Bg4-d7 Kh6-g6 f4-f5+ Kg6-g7 Ke4-e5 Kg7-g8
20/36 00:00 132k 1,336k +8.39 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 g5-g4 Bd7xg4 Kg6-h6 Kd3-d2 Kh6-g6 Kd2-e3 Kg6-h6 f2-f4 Ba7-b8 Ke3-e4 Kh6-g6 Bg4-d7
21/36 00:00 155k 1,358k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 g5-g4 Bd7xg4 Kg6-h6 Kd3-d4 Qa8-b8 Bg4-e6 Qb8-a8 Be6-d7 Kh6-h5 f2-f4 Ba7-b8 Kd4-e4 Kh5-g6 f4-f5+ Kg6-h7
22/39 00:00 183k 1,358k +8.35 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 Kg6-g7 Kd3-d2 Kg7-g6 Kd2-e3 g5-g4 Bd7xg4 Kg6-h6 f2-f4 Ba7-b8 Bg4-d7 Kh6-h7 Ke3-f3 Kh7-g6 f4-f5+ Kg6-h7 Kf3-f4 Kh7-h6 Kf4-e5
23/40 00:00 209k 1,369k +8.51 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 Kg6-g7 Kd3-d2 Kg7-g6 Kd2-e3 Qa8-b8 Ke3-e4 Qb8-a8 Ke4-e5 Kg6-g7 Bd7-f5 g5-g4 Bf5xg4 Kg7-g6 Ke5-e4 Kg6-f7 Ke4-d3 Kf7-g6 f2-f4
24/41 00:00 315k 1,499k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 Kg6-g7 Kd3-d2 Kg7-g6 Kd2-e3 Qa8-b8 Ke3-e4 Qb8-a8 Ke4-e5 Kg6-g7 Bd7-f5 g5-g4 Ke5-e4 Kg7-g8 Bf5xg4 Kg8-f7 Ke4-d3 Kf7-g7 Kd3-e3 Ba7-b8 Ke3-e4
25/43 00:00 353k 1,481k +8.52 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 Kg6-g7 Kd3-d2 Kg7-g6 Kd2-e3 Qa8-b8 Ke3-e4 Qb8-a8 Ke4-e5 Kg6-g7 Bd7-f5 g5-g4 Ke5-e4 Kg7-g8 Bf5xg4 Kg8-f7 Ke4-d3 Kf7-g7 Kd3-e3 Ba7-b8 Ke3-e4 Kg7-g6 f2-f4
26/47 00:00 401k 1,427k +8.39 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Bd7-g4 Kg6-g7 Kc3-b2 Kg7-f6 Kb2-c2 Kf6-g7 Kc2-c3 Kg7-g8 Bg4-f5 Qa8-b8 Kc3-d4 Kg8-f7 Kd4-e5 Kf7-f8 Bf5-d7 Kf8-g7
27/47 00:00 700k 1,423k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Bd7-g4 Kg6-g7 Kc3-d4 Ba7-b8 Bg4-d7 Kg7-f6 Kd4-d3 Kf6-f7 Kd3-e2 Kf7-g6 f2-f4 Kg6-h5 f4-f5 g5-g4 Ke2-e3 Qa8-b7 c6xb7 c7-c6 b5xc6 Bb8xg3 Nc8xb6
28/49 00:00 819k 1,470k +8.41 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 Kg6-g7 Kd3-e3 Ba7-b8 Ke3-d4 Kg7-f6 Kd4-d3 Kf6-f7 Kd3-e2 Kf7-f8 Ke2-f3 Kf8-g7 Kf3-e3 Kg7-h8 Ke3-e4 Kh8-g7 Ke4-f5 g5-g4 Kf5-e4 Kg7-f8 Bd7xg4 Qa8-b7
29/48 00:00 891k 1,485k +8.40 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g6 Kc3-d3 Kg6-g7 Kd3-e3 Ba7-b8 Ke3-d4 Kg7-f6 Kd4-d3 Bb8-a7 Bd7-g4 Kf6-g7 Kd3-e3 Ba7-b8 Bg4-d7 Kg7-h6 Ke3-d4 Kh6-g6 Kd4-d3 Kg6-f7 Kd3-e2 Kf7-f8 Ke2-d2 Kf8-g8 Kd2-c3 g5-g4 Bd7xg4 Kg8-f7 Kc3-d3
30/50 00:00 1,508k 1,586k +8.45 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-g7 Kc3-d4 Kg7-f6 Kd4-d3 Qa8-b8 Bg4-d7 Qb8-a8 Kd3-e3 Qa8-b8 Bd7-g4 Kf6-g6 Ke3-d4 Kg6-f7 Kd4-e5 Qb8-a8 Bg4-e6+ Kf7-e8 Be6-d7+ Ke8-d8 f2-f4 g5-g4 f4-f5 Qa8xc8 Bd7xc8 Kd8xc8 Ke5-f6 Kc8-d8 Kf6-g7 Kd8-e7
31/61 00:01 1,939k 1,639k +8.48 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-e7 Nd6-c8+ Ke7-f7 c5-c6 Kf7xg7 Kb2-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-d7 Kf6-g7 Kc3-d2 Qa8-b8 Kd2-e3 Kg7-f6 Ke3-e4 Qb8-a8 Ke4-d3 Ba7-b8 Bd7-g4 Kf6-g6 Kd3-e3 Kg6-f6 Bg4-d7 Kf6-g7 Bd7-f5 Kg7-f7 Ke3-d3 Kf7-e8 Kd3-d4 Ke8-d8 Bf5-g4 Kd8-e8 Kd4-e5 Qa8-b7 f2-f4 g5xf4 g3xf4 Ke8-d8 c6xb7 c7-c6+ Ke5-e4 Kd8-c7 b5xc6
32/62 00:02 4,430k 1,778k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 Qf6-f1 Qd5-d2 Qf1-c4+ Kg4-g5 a5-a4 Qd2-f4 Qc4-g8+ Kg5-f5 Qg8-f7+ Kf5-e4 Qf7-c4+ Ke4-e5
33/26- 00:03 5,410k 1,765k +7.60 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
33/26- 00:03 5,752k 1,754k +7.22 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
33/26- 00:03 6,179k 1,733k +6.72 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
33/60+ 00:03 6,184k 1,733k +7.73 h5xg6
33/63 00:03 6,659k 1,727k +8.49 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 Qf6-f1 Qd5-d2 Qf1-c4+ Kg4-g5 a5-a4 Qd2-f4 Qc4-g8+ Kg5-f5 Qg8-f7+ Kf5-e4 Qf7-c4+ Ke4-e5 a4-a3 Qf4-e3 b5-b4
34/65 00:04 6,950k 1,724k +8.46 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 Qf6-f1 Qd5-d2 Qf1-c4+ Kg4-g5 a5-a4 Qd2-f4 Qc4-g8+ Kg5-f5 Qg8-f7+ Kf5-e4 Qf7-c4+ Ke4-e5 Qc4-g8 Nc8-e7 Qg8-b8 Ke5-e4 Qb8-d8
35/69- 00:04 7,008k 1,721k +8.39 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
35/69- 00:04 7,024k 1,720k +8.30 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
35/69- 00:04 8,469k 1,704k +7.81 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
35/69+ 00:04 8,474k 1,704k +7.98 h5xg6
35/69+ 00:04 8,510k 1,704k +8.37 h5xg6
35/71 00:05 8,615k 1,707k +8.45 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 Qf6-f1 Kg4-g5 Qf1-c1+ Kg5-f6 a5-a4 Bd7-e6 Qc1-b2+ Kf6-e7 Ka6-a5 Ke7-d8 a4-a3 g3-g4 Ka5-b4 Kd8xc7 a3-a2 Qd5xa2 Qb2-g7+ Kc7-b6
36/70+ 00:05 8,932k 1,716k +8.52 h5xg6
36/72- 00:05 9,431k 1,704k +8.37 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
36/72- 00:07 10,702k 1,488k +7.88 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
36/72+ 00:07 10,707k 1,488k +8.08 h5xg6
36/72+ 00:07 10,785k 1,477k +8.46 h5xg6
36/81 00:10 15,619k 1,444k +8.55 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 Qf6-f1 Kg4-g5 Qf1-c1+ Kg5-f6 a5-a4 Qd5-e5 b5-b4 Qe5xc7 Qc1-h6+ Kf6-e7 Qh6-g5+ Ke7-f7 Qg5-h5+ Kf7-f8 Qh5-h6+ Kf8-e8 Qh6-h8+ Ke8-e7 Qh8-h7+ Ke7-d8 Qh7-h8+ Bd7-e8 Ka6-b5 Qc7-d6 Kb5-c4 Qd6-f4+ Kc4-d3 Qf4xb4 Qh8-e5
37/78- 00:11 16,213k 1,442k +8.48 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
37/78- 00:11 16,275k 1,440k +8.40 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
37/78- 00:13 19,513k 1,455k +7.62 h5xg6 Qh8xh2
37/78 00:14 20,805k 1,451k +7.65 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 a5-a4 Qd5-c5 Qf6-g6+ Kg4-f3 Qg6-d3+ Qc5-e3 Qd3-d5+ Kf3-g4 Ka6-a5 Qe3-a7+ Ka5-b4 Qa7xc7 a4-a3 Qc7-f4+ Kb4-a5 Nc8-e7 Qd5-d1+ Kg4-g5 a3-a2 Bd7-g4 Qd1-e1
38/70+ 00:16 23,985k 1,437k +7.73 h5xg6
38/79+ 00:17 25,560k 1,424k +7.80 h5xg6
38/81+ 00:22 31,200k 1,393k +8.29 h5xg6
38/87 00:24 33,732k 1,388k +8.11 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 a5-a4 Qd5-c5 Qf6-g6+ Kg4-f3 Qg6-d3+ Qc5-e3 Qd3-d5+ Kf3-g4 Ka6-a5 Qe3-a7+ Ka5-b4 Qa7xc7 a4-a3 Qc7-f4+ Kb4-a5 Qf4-e3 Qd5-c4+ Kg4-g5 a3-a2 Bd7-e6 a2-a1Q Be6xc4 Qa1-g7+ Kg5-f5 Qg7-h7+ Kf5-e5 Qh7-c7+ Ke5-f6 b5xc4 Qe3-c5+ Ka5-a4 Qc5xc4+ Ka4-a3 Qc4-c5+ Ka3-b2 Qc5-b4+ Kb2-c1 Qb4-f4+ Qc7xf4+ g3xf4
39/92+ 00:29 40,212k 1,358k +8.19 h5xg6
39/92+ 00:30 41,372k 1,357k +8.26 h5xg6
39/92+ 00:33 45,154k 1,354k +8.53 h5xg6
39/92 00:33 45,609k 1,355k +8.42 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 a5-a4 Qd5-c5 Qf6-g6+ Kg4-f3 Qg6-d3+ Qc5-e3 Qd3-d5+ Kf3-g4 Ka6-a5 Qe3-a7+ Ka5-b4 Qa7xc7 a4-a3 Qc7-f4+ Kb4-a5 Qf4-e3 Qd5-d1+ Kg4-g5 a3-a2 Qe3-a7+ Ka5-b4 Qa7xa2 Qd1-c1+ Kg5-g4 Qc1-d1+ Kg4-f4 Qd1-c1+ Kf4-e4 Qc1-c5 Ke4-f3 Qc5-c3+ Kf3-g2 Kb4-c5 Qa2-f2+ Kc5-d5 Nc8-b6+ Kd5-d6
40/90+ 00:36 49,802k 1,360k +8.50 h5xg6
40/90 00:48 66,621k 1,366k +8.56 h5xg6 Qh8xh2 Re1xe6+ Kf6xe6 g6-g7 Qh2-h1+ Ka1-b2 Qh1-a8 Bd3xf5+ Ke6-f6 Nd6-c8 Kf6xg7 c5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bf5-g4 Kf6-e5 Kb2-c3 Ke5-e4 Kc3-d2 Ke4-d4 Bg4-e6 Kd4-e5 Be6-d7 Ke5-d4 Kd2-e2 Kd4xc4 f2-f4 Kc4-d4 Ke2-f3 Qa8-b8 Kf3-g4 Kd4-c3 f4xg5 Kc3-b4 g5-g6 Kb4xa4 g6-g7 Ka4xb5 g7-g8Q Kb5-a6 Qg8-a2 b6-b5 Nc8xa7 Qb8-f8 Na7-c8 Qf8-f6 Qa2-d5 a5-a4 Qd5-c5 Qf6-g6+ Kg4-f3 Qg6-d3+ Qc5-e3 Qd3-d5+ Kf3-g4 Ka6-a5 Qe3-a7+ Ka5-b4 Qa7xc7 Qd5-g8+ Kg4-f4 Qg8-c4+ Kf4-f5 a4-a3 Qc7-d6+ Qc4-c5+ Qd6xc5+ Kb4xc5 c6-c7 a3-a2 Nc8-a7 a2-a1Q c7-c8Q+ Kc5-b4 Na7xb5 Qa1-e1 Qc8-f8+ Kb4-c4 Qf8-d6

Ok, ok, that was after some back and forth :)

That's a very nice position, Peer. Thanks!

peter
Posts: 1628
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am

Re: 2 testpositions

Post by peter » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:29 am

Hi Peer!
Spliffjiffer wrote:[d]8/R7/4kpp1/2n4p/7P/p5P1/3N1PK1/r7 w - - 5 1
only move 1.Nc4 !! (draw)..
Are you quite sure, 1.Nc4(!) draws indeed?

Here is some output after backtracking several lines with full Syzygys leading to won 7 some positions now and then yet, starting from and coming back to the position after 1.Nc4:

[d]8/R7/4kpp1/2n4p/2N4P/p5P1/5PK1/r7 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Houdini 6.03 Pro x64-popc:

1...a2 2.Ne3 Nd3 3.Ra6+ Ke5 4.f4+ Ke4 5.Nc2 Nc5 6.Ra3 Rd1 7.Kh3 Rd3 8.Ra5 Rd2 9.Rxa2 Re2 10.Rb2 Nd3 11.Ra2 Nf2+ 12.Kh2 Nd1+ 13.Kg1 Nc3 14.Rb2 Nd5 15.Ra2 Rd2 16.Ra4+ Kf3 17.Ra3+ Ke2 18.Ra5 Ne7 19.Nb4 Kf3 20.Ra3+ Kg4 21.Nd3 Kxg3 22.Kf1 Kg4 23.Nf2+ Kxf4 24.Ra4+ Ke5 25.Re4+ Kd6 26.Ra4 Rd5 27.Nh3 Ke5 28.Ng1 Nc6 29.Ne2 Rd3 30.Kf2 Nd4
-+ (-4.19) Depth: 38/105 00:13:14 27940MN, tb=93380978

Louis Zulli's CFish- output here

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 00&t=66670

shows lower evals and no real progress in the line, but as for Houdini's one it's not quite the same, as you see.
Peter Martan

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 2 testpositions

Post by Spliffjiffer » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:29 am

hi Louis,
thx for confirming Nc4 as best move...as im interstetd in the time that was needed to find it...does "time 74088" means that C-fish needed 74088 ms or how to translate in seconds ?
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 2 testpositions

Post by Spliffjiffer » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:47 am

hi Peter,
no im not absolutely sure that 1. Nc4 (!) is a draw !...im "absulutely" sure that every alternative will loose instead (almost my whole analysis-time i invested for this..after finding 1. Nc4 i ran out of breath)...your line looks familiar to me and i thought its a draw...if we can figure out that even 1.Nc4 is loosing for white then i have (with great pleasure) to revise a former post of mine :-)...ill investigate later more deeply, thank you very much for putting this in question ! :-)....1.Nc4 still stays the best move i this position and the only hope for a draw !
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

peter
Posts: 1628
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am

Re: 2 testpositions

Post by peter » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:59 am

Spliffjiffer wrote:your line looks familiar to me and i thought its a draw...
...
1.Nc4 still stays the best move i this position and the only hope for a draw !
No doubt about 1.Nc4 as best move, yet end of Houdini's output- line shows rising evals with full Syzygys, not meaning a thing of course, there's much to much shuffling within output- line, cause with full Syzgys loaded Houdini runs out of hash having to go backward about 15 moves at least.

But the lines leading to this backtracking- output now and then as said gave won tbs- positions now and then sooner, round move 15 already most of my trials.

Just wanted to give my doubts, can't prove it drawn nor won neither.
:)
Peter Martan

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