analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson
Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.

 Posts: 734
 Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:14 am
 Location: Columbus, Ohio USA
 Full name: Andrew R Case
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
Looks like Stockfish doesn't change it's mind after 60+ plys it still likes 3.Nf3xe5 and the eval doeasn't really change either:
Stockfish_18080817_x64_bmi2:
56/84 12:48:05 1,152,343,267k 25,004k +1.82 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Nb8c6 6.Nb1c3 Bc8e6 7.Bc1e3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 a7a6 9.Nc3d5 Qe7d7 10.c2c4 Bf8b4+ 11.Nd5xb4 Qd7xd1+ 12.Ra1xd1 Nc6xb4 13.Nf3d4 Be6d7 14.a2a3 Nb4c6 15.Nd4xc6 Bd7xc6 16.f2f3 Ng8e7 17.Be3f4 Ra8c8 18.Bf1e2 Ke8f7 19.Bf4g3 Rh8e8 20.b2b4 Bc6a4 21.Rd1d2 h7h5 22.h2h4 Ne7g6 23.Ke1f2 Ng6e5 24.Kf2e3 Rc8d8 25.Rd2d5 Ba4c6 26.Rd5xd8 Re8xd8 27.b4b5 Bc6e8 28.a3a4 Kf7e7 29.b5xa6 b7xa6 30.Rh1b1 Be8xa4 31.Rb1a1 Ba4b3 32.Bg3xe5 f6xe5 33.Ra1a5 Ke7e6 34.Ra5xa6+ Rd8d6 35.Ra6a7 Ke6d7 36.c4c5
57/76+ 13:03:16 1,175,489,147k 25,012k +1.89 3.Nf3xe5
57/76+ 14:50:34 1,337,490,139k 25,030k +1.97 3.Nf3xe5
57/78 15:38:47 1,409,756,668k 25,028k +1.86 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Nb8c6 6.Nb1c3 Bc8e6 7.Bc1e3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 a7a6 9.Nc3d5 Qe7d7 10.c2c4 Bf8b4+ 11.Nd5xb4 Qd7xd1+ 12.Ra1xd1 Nc6xb4 13.Nf3d4 Be6d7 14.a2a3 Nb4c6 15.Nd4xc6 Bd7xc6 16.f2f3 Ng8e7 17.Bf1e2 Ne7g6 18.b2b4 Ng6e5 19.h2h3 OO 20.Rd1d4 Ra8d8 21.Ke1f2 Bc6a4 22.Rh1c1 Rf8e8 23.Rd4d5 Ba4c6 24.Rd5d2 Bc6a4 25.h3h4 Rd8xd2 26.Be3xd2 Re8d8 27.Kf2e3 h7h5 28.Bd2c3 Kg8f7 29.Rc1f1 Kf7e6 30.g2g3 Rd8h8 31.Rf1b1 Rh8d8 32.Rb1c1 g7g6 33.Bc3b2 Ke6f7 34.Bb2xe5 f6xe5 35.f3f4 Kf7f6 36.b4b5 a6xb5 37.c4xb5
58/82 21:22:58 1,926,744,090k 25,030k +1.79 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
58/82+ 21:26:34 1,932,187,107k 25,030k +1.86 3.Nf3xe5
58/82 22:07:09 1,992,935,956k 25,028k +1.89 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Bc8e6 6.Bc1e3 Nb8c6 7.Nb1c3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 a7a6 9.Nc3d5 Qe7d7 10.c2c4 Bf8b4+ 11.Nd5xb4 Qd7xd1+ 12.Ke1xd1 Nc6xb4 13.Kd1d2 Nb4c6 14.Kd2c3 Ng8h6 15.Bf1e2 Be6d7 16.Nf3d4 a6a5 17.Nd4xc6 Bd7xc6 18.f2f3 Nh6f7 19.b2b3 OOO 20.Be3d4 b7b6 21.h2h4 Rh8e8 22.Rh1e1 Rd8d7 23.Ra1d1 h7h5 24.Bd4f2 Nf7e5 25.Rd1xd7 Kc8xd7 26.a2a4 Re8b8 27.Bf2d4 Kd7e6 28.f3f4 Ne5g4 29.g2g3 Ke6f7 30.c4c5 b6b5 31.Be2xb5 Bc6xb5 32.a4xb5 Rb8xb5 33.Re1a1 Kf7e8 34.c5c6
59/91 22:46:49 2,052,610,985k 25,029k +1.82 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
59/91+ 23:16:30 2,097,400,175k 25,031k +1.89 3.Nf3xe5
59/91 31:02:34 2,805,146,823k 25,101k +1.90 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 d5xe4 6.d3xe4 Qe7xe4+ 7.Bf1e2 Nb8c6 8.Nb1c3 Qe4e6 9.OO Bc8d7 10.Bc1f4 OOO 11.Nc3b5 Nc6e5 12.Nb5xa7+ Kc8b8 13.Na7b5 Bf8c5 14.b2b4 Bc5b6 15.a2a4 Ng8e7 16.Qd1c1 Ne7g6 17.Nf3d4 Bb6xd4 18.Nb5xd4 Ng6xf4 19.Qc1xf4 Qe6d5 20.Rf1d1 Ne5c6 21.Nd4xc6+ Qd5xc6 22.b4b5 Qc6c5 23.c2c4 Rh8e8 24.Be2f1 Bd7c8 25.a4a5 Qc5g5 26.Qf4xg5 f6xg5 27.Rd1xd8 Re8xd8 28.Ra1e1 g5g4 29.f2f3 g4xf3 30.g2xf3 g7g6 31.Re1e7 h7h5 32.h2h4 Rd8d4 33.Re7e4 Rd4d8 34.Kg1f2 Bc8f5 35.Re4e7 Kb8c8 36.c4c5 Rd8d2+ 37.Kf2g3 Rd2a2 38.b5b6 c7xb6 39.a5xb6 Ra2c2
60/79 37:29:07 3,393,453,058k 25,146k +1.83 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
60/79+ 39:30:27 3,575,011,313k 25,136k +1.90 3.Nf3xe5
60/80 46:25:25 4,194,100,516k 25,096k +1.75 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
60/80 46:46:07 4,225,097,404k 25,095k +1.78 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Nb8c6 6.Nb1c3 Bc8e6 7.Bc1e3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 Qe7d7 9.Bf1b5 a7a6 10.Bb5xc6 Qd7xc6 11.Nf3d4 Qc6d7 12.Nd4xe6 Qd7xe6 13.Qd1h5+ g7g6 14.Qh5d5 Qe6xd5 15.Nc3xd5 OOO 16.OOO Rd8e8 17.f2f3 Re8e6 18.Be3d4 Bf8d6 19.h2h4 h7h5 20.c2c4 Rh8h7 21.b2b4 Rh7f7 22.c4c5 Bd6e5 23.Bd4xe5 Re6xe5 24.Nd5f4 Ng8e7 25.Nf4d3 Re5e6 26.Kc1c2 Ne7c6 27.Kc2c3 Re6e8 28.a2a4 f6f5 29.Nd3f2 f5xe4 30.Nf2xe4 Re8e7 31.Rd1d2 Re7d7 32.Rh1d1 Rd7xd2 33.Rd1xd2 Rf7d7 34.Rd2xd7 Kc8xd7
61/86 59:27:17 5,366,591,580k 25,073k +1.71 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
61/86+ 59:41:11 5,387,817,313k 25,075k +1.78 3.Nf3xe5
61/87+ 60:56:00 5,501,065,843k 25,078k +1.90 3.Nf3xe5
61/98 88:26:35 8,004,877,604k 25,141k +1.79 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Bc8e6 6.Nb1c3 Nb8c6 7.Bc1e3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 Qe7d7 9.Bf1b5 a7a6 10.Bb5xc6 Qd7xc6 11.Nf3d4 Qc6d7 12.Nd4xe6 Qd7xe6 13.Qd1h5+ g7g6 14.Qh5d5 Qe6xd5 15.Nc3xd5 OOO 16.OOO Rd8e8 17.f2f3 Re8e6 18.h2h4 Bf8h6 19.h4h5 Bh6xe3+ 20.Nd5xe3 g6g5 21.Rd1d4 Ng8e7 22.Rh1d1 Ne7c6 23.Rd4d5 Re6e7 24.b2b3 Nc6e5 25.Kc1d2 Re7d7 26.Kd2e2 Rh8d8 27.Rd5xd7 Ne5xd7 28.c2c4 Rd8e8 29.Ke2f2 a6a5 30.Ne3g4 Re8e6 31.Kf2g3 c7c6 32.Ng4e3 b7b6 33.Kg3g4 Kc8c7 34.h5h6 Re6d6 35.Kg4f5 Rd6xd1 36.Ne3xd1 Kc7d6 37.Nd1f2 Kd6e7 38.Nf2d3
62/83+ 89:30:52 8,102,750,598k 25,144k +1.86 3.Nf3xe5
Stockfish_18080817_x64_bmi2:
56/84 12:48:05 1,152,343,267k 25,004k +1.82 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Nb8c6 6.Nb1c3 Bc8e6 7.Bc1e3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 a7a6 9.Nc3d5 Qe7d7 10.c2c4 Bf8b4+ 11.Nd5xb4 Qd7xd1+ 12.Ra1xd1 Nc6xb4 13.Nf3d4 Be6d7 14.a2a3 Nb4c6 15.Nd4xc6 Bd7xc6 16.f2f3 Ng8e7 17.Be3f4 Ra8c8 18.Bf1e2 Ke8f7 19.Bf4g3 Rh8e8 20.b2b4 Bc6a4 21.Rd1d2 h7h5 22.h2h4 Ne7g6 23.Ke1f2 Ng6e5 24.Kf2e3 Rc8d8 25.Rd2d5 Ba4c6 26.Rd5xd8 Re8xd8 27.b4b5 Bc6e8 28.a3a4 Kf7e7 29.b5xa6 b7xa6 30.Rh1b1 Be8xa4 31.Rb1a1 Ba4b3 32.Bg3xe5 f6xe5 33.Ra1a5 Ke7e6 34.Ra5xa6+ Rd8d6 35.Ra6a7 Ke6d7 36.c4c5
57/76+ 13:03:16 1,175,489,147k 25,012k +1.89 3.Nf3xe5
57/76+ 14:50:34 1,337,490,139k 25,030k +1.97 3.Nf3xe5
57/78 15:38:47 1,409,756,668k 25,028k +1.86 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Nb8c6 6.Nb1c3 Bc8e6 7.Bc1e3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 a7a6 9.Nc3d5 Qe7d7 10.c2c4 Bf8b4+ 11.Nd5xb4 Qd7xd1+ 12.Ra1xd1 Nc6xb4 13.Nf3d4 Be6d7 14.a2a3 Nb4c6 15.Nd4xc6 Bd7xc6 16.f2f3 Ng8e7 17.Bf1e2 Ne7g6 18.b2b4 Ng6e5 19.h2h3 OO 20.Rd1d4 Ra8d8 21.Ke1f2 Bc6a4 22.Rh1c1 Rf8e8 23.Rd4d5 Ba4c6 24.Rd5d2 Bc6a4 25.h3h4 Rd8xd2 26.Be3xd2 Re8d8 27.Kf2e3 h7h5 28.Bd2c3 Kg8f7 29.Rc1f1 Kf7e6 30.g2g3 Rd8h8 31.Rf1b1 Rh8d8 32.Rb1c1 g7g6 33.Bc3b2 Ke6f7 34.Bb2xe5 f6xe5 35.f3f4 Kf7f6 36.b4b5 a6xb5 37.c4xb5
58/82 21:22:58 1,926,744,090k 25,030k +1.79 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
58/82+ 21:26:34 1,932,187,107k 25,030k +1.86 3.Nf3xe5
58/82 22:07:09 1,992,935,956k 25,028k +1.89 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Bc8e6 6.Bc1e3 Nb8c6 7.Nb1c3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 a7a6 9.Nc3d5 Qe7d7 10.c2c4 Bf8b4+ 11.Nd5xb4 Qd7xd1+ 12.Ke1xd1 Nc6xb4 13.Kd1d2 Nb4c6 14.Kd2c3 Ng8h6 15.Bf1e2 Be6d7 16.Nf3d4 a6a5 17.Nd4xc6 Bd7xc6 18.f2f3 Nh6f7 19.b2b3 OOO 20.Be3d4 b7b6 21.h2h4 Rh8e8 22.Rh1e1 Rd8d7 23.Ra1d1 h7h5 24.Bd4f2 Nf7e5 25.Rd1xd7 Kc8xd7 26.a2a4 Re8b8 27.Bf2d4 Kd7e6 28.f3f4 Ne5g4 29.g2g3 Ke6f7 30.c4c5 b6b5 31.Be2xb5 Bc6xb5 32.a4xb5 Rb8xb5 33.Re1a1 Kf7e8 34.c5c6
59/91 22:46:49 2,052,610,985k 25,029k +1.82 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
59/91+ 23:16:30 2,097,400,175k 25,031k +1.89 3.Nf3xe5
59/91 31:02:34 2,805,146,823k 25,101k +1.90 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 d5xe4 6.d3xe4 Qe7xe4+ 7.Bf1e2 Nb8c6 8.Nb1c3 Qe4e6 9.OO Bc8d7 10.Bc1f4 OOO 11.Nc3b5 Nc6e5 12.Nb5xa7+ Kc8b8 13.Na7b5 Bf8c5 14.b2b4 Bc5b6 15.a2a4 Ng8e7 16.Qd1c1 Ne7g6 17.Nf3d4 Bb6xd4 18.Nb5xd4 Ng6xf4 19.Qc1xf4 Qe6d5 20.Rf1d1 Ne5c6 21.Nd4xc6+ Qd5xc6 22.b4b5 Qc6c5 23.c2c4 Rh8e8 24.Be2f1 Bd7c8 25.a4a5 Qc5g5 26.Qf4xg5 f6xg5 27.Rd1xd8 Re8xd8 28.Ra1e1 g5g4 29.f2f3 g4xf3 30.g2xf3 g7g6 31.Re1e7 h7h5 32.h2h4 Rd8d4 33.Re7e4 Rd4d8 34.Kg1f2 Bc8f5 35.Re4e7 Kb8c8 36.c4c5 Rd8d2+ 37.Kf2g3 Rd2a2 38.b5b6 c7xb6 39.a5xb6 Ra2c2
60/79 37:29:07 3,393,453,058k 25,146k +1.83 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
60/79+ 39:30:27 3,575,011,313k 25,136k +1.90 3.Nf3xe5
60/80 46:25:25 4,194,100,516k 25,096k +1.75 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
60/80 46:46:07 4,225,097,404k 25,095k +1.78 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Nb8c6 6.Nb1c3 Bc8e6 7.Bc1e3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 Qe7d7 9.Bf1b5 a7a6 10.Bb5xc6 Qd7xc6 11.Nf3d4 Qc6d7 12.Nd4xe6 Qd7xe6 13.Qd1h5+ g7g6 14.Qh5d5 Qe6xd5 15.Nc3xd5 OOO 16.OOO Rd8e8 17.f2f3 Re8e6 18.Be3d4 Bf8d6 19.h2h4 h7h5 20.c2c4 Rh8h7 21.b2b4 Rh7f7 22.c4c5 Bd6e5 23.Bd4xe5 Re6xe5 24.Nd5f4 Ng8e7 25.Nf4d3 Re5e6 26.Kc1c2 Ne7c6 27.Kc2c3 Re6e8 28.a2a4 f6f5 29.Nd3f2 f5xe4 30.Nf2xe4 Re8e7 31.Rd1d2 Re7d7 32.Rh1d1 Rd7xd2 33.Rd1xd2 Rf7d7 34.Rd2xd7 Kc8xd7
61/86 59:27:17 5,366,591,580k 25,073k +1.71 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7
61/86+ 59:41:11 5,387,817,313k 25,075k +1.78 3.Nf3xe5
61/87+ 60:56:00 5,501,065,843k 25,078k +1.90 3.Nf3xe5
61/98 88:26:35 8,004,877,604k 25,141k +1.79 3.Nf3xe5 Qd8e7 4.Ne5f3 d7d5 5.d2d3 Bc8e6 6.Nb1c3 Nb8c6 7.Bc1e3 d5xe4 8.d3xe4 Qe7d7 9.Bf1b5 a7a6 10.Bb5xc6 Qd7xc6 11.Nf3d4 Qc6d7 12.Nd4xe6 Qd7xe6 13.Qd1h5+ g7g6 14.Qh5d5 Qe6xd5 15.Nc3xd5 OOO 16.OOO Rd8e8 17.f2f3 Re8e6 18.h2h4 Bf8h6 19.h4h5 Bh6xe3+ 20.Nd5xe3 g6g5 21.Rd1d4 Ng8e7 22.Rh1d1 Ne7c6 23.Rd4d5 Re6e7 24.b2b3 Nc6e5 25.Kc1d2 Re7d7 26.Kd2e2 Rh8d8 27.Rd5xd7 Ne5xd7 28.c2c4 Rd8e8 29.Ke2f2 a6a5 30.Ne3g4 Re8e6 31.Kf2g3 c7c6 32.Ng4e3 b7b6 33.Kg3g4 Kc8c7 34.h5h6 Re6d6 35.Kg4f5 Rd6xd1 36.Ne3xd1 Kc7d6 37.Nd1f2 Kd6e7 38.Nf2d3
62/83+ 89:30:52 8,102,750,598k 25,144k +1.86 3.Nf3xe5

 Posts: 101
 Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:18 pm
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
So it seems that the main goes like: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5 Qe7 4.Nf3 d5 5.d3 and now black has a choice:
5...dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4
5...Nc6
5...Be6
So if we want to refute the opening  and I belive that there is a refutation  we should analyse these three positions to a great depth.
Note that after 5...dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4 it's not that obvious that 7.Be2 is the best cause there is also 7.Be3.
5...dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4
5...Nc6
5...Be6
So if we want to refute the opening  and I belive that there is a refutation  we should analyse these three positions to a great depth.
Note that after 5...dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4 it's not that obvious that 7.Be2 is the best cause there is also 7.Be3.
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
How much of a refutation do you want after two moves?! An evaluation of +1.86 (which must include SF's default contempt) certainly suggests that this defense sucks.Karol Majewski wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:50 amSo it seems that the main goes like: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5 Qe7 4.Nf3 d5 5.d3 and now black has a choice:
5...dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4
5...Nc6
5...Be6
So if we want to refute the opening  and I belive that there is a refutation  we should analyse these three positions to a great depth.
Note that after 5...dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4 it's not that obvious that 7.Be2 is the best cause there is also 7.Be3.
In any case, I'm searching the position below, just to confirm that SFdev prefers 7.Be2.

 Posts: 101
 Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:18 pm
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
I get your point Louis but there is a difference between 'much worse' and 'lost'. It's clear that black is much worse here but is he lost? This is what Uri asked in the first post, I belive. There are many opening positions where engine gives +1.80 and later it occurs that it's not possible to convert this adventage into win.zullil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:19 amHow much of a refutation do you want after two moves?! An evaluation of +1.86 (which must include SF's default contempt) certainly suggests that this defense sucks.Karol Majewski wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:50 amSo it seems that the main goes like: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5 Qe7 4.Nf3 d5 5.d3 and now black has a choice:
5...dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4
5...Nc6
5...Be6
So if we want to refute the opening  and I belive that there is a refutation  we should analyse these three positions to a great depth.
Note that after 5...dxe4 6.dxe4 Qxe4 it's not that obvious that 7.Be2 is the best cause there is also 7.Be3.
In any case, I'm searching the position below, just to confirm that SFdev prefers 7.Be2.

 Posts: 562
 Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:03 am
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
the opening is refuted for practical purposes.
if other lines (ruy lopez, petroff, etc.) give black 0.40, why would black hasten to a 1.80 score?
if other lines (ruy lopez, petroff, etc.) give black 0.40, why would black hasten to a 1.80 score?

 Posts: 101
 Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:18 pm
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
If Ruy Lopez and Petroff give black 0.40 then why people keep playing the king's gambit 2.f4? Again, after 2.f4 white is much worse but is he lost? We don't know it yet.whereagles wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:56 amthe opening is refuted for practical purposes.
if other lines (ruy lopez, petroff, etc.) give black 0.40, why would black hasten to a 1.80 score?
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
Karol Majewski wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:47 am
I get your point Louis but there is a difference between 'much worse' and 'lost'. It's clear that black is much worse here but is he lost? This is what Uri asked in the first post, I belive. There are many opening positions where engine gives +1.80 and later it occurs that it's not possible to convert this adventage into win.
SFdev with default contempt:
+1.98 7. Be2 Bb4+ 8. c3 Bd6 9. OO Ne7 10. Nbd2 Qg6 11. Re1 OO 12. Nd4 Nbc6 13. Bh5 Qd3 14. Re3 Qa6 15. Be2 Qa5 16. b4 Qg5 17. Nxc6 Nxc6 18. Ne4 Qf5 19. Nxd6 cxd6 20. Qxd6 Ne5 21. f4 Nf7 22. Qc7 Qd7 23. Re7 Qxc7 24. Rxc7 Re8 25. Bh5 g6 26. Bf3 Nd6 27. c4 Be6 28. Bb2 Rac8 29. Rxc8 Bxc8 30. c5 Ne4 31. Rd1 f5 32. Be5 Kf7 33. a4 a5 34. bxa5 Nxc5 35. Rc1 Nd3 36. Rc7+ Ke6 37. Rxh7 Nxe5 38. fxe5 Rd8 39. Bxb7 Bxb7 40. Rxb7 Rd4 41. Rb6+ Kxe5 (depth 51, 2:22:03)
I'll let this go futher, but +1.98 seems pretty close to "won".

 Posts: 562
 Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:03 am
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
We play the king's gambit because it's fun. The damiano doesn't seem like fun at all. More like masochismKarol Majewski wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:05 pmIf Ruy Lopez and Petroff give black 0.40 then why people keep playing the king's gambit 2.f4? Again, after 2.f4 white is much worse but is he lost? We don't know it yet.
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
+2.08 7. Be2 Bd6 8. Nc3 Qe6 9. Nd4 Qd7 10. Ndb5 Be5 11. OO Qxd1 12. Rxd1 Na6 13. f4 Bxc3 14. bxc3 f5 15. Re1 Nf6 16. Bc4+ Ne4 17. Bd5 Kd8 18. Ba3 Nac5 19. Rad1 Bd7 20. Nd4 Kc8 21. Bxc5 Nxc5 22. Re7 g6 23. Nb3 Nxb3 24. cxb3 a5 25. Bxb7+ Kxb7 26. Rdxd7 Rac8 27. Rxh7 Rxh7 28. Rxh7 Rd8 29. h4 Rd1+ 30. Kh2 Rf1 31. Kg3 a4 32. bxa4 Rc1 33. Rg7 Rxc3+ 34. Kf2 Rc6 35. g4 Rc2+ 36. Ke3 fxg4 37. Rxg6 Rxa2 38. h5 Rxa4 39. Rxg4 (depth 54, 5:39:05)zullil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:39 pmKarol Majewski wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:47 am
I get your point Louis but there is a difference between 'much worse' and 'lost'. It's clear that black is much worse here but is he lost? This is what Uri asked in the first post, I belive. There are many opening positions where engine gives +1.80 and later it occurs that it's not possible to convert this adventage into win.
SFdev with default contempt:
+1.98 7. Be2 Bb4+ 8. c3 Bd6 9. OO Ne7 10. Nbd2 Qg6 11. Re1 OO 12. Nd4 Nbc6 13. Bh5 Qd3 14. Re3 Qa6 15. Be2 Qa5 16. b4 Qg5 17. Nxc6 Nxc6 18. Ne4 Qf5 19. Nxd6 cxd6 20. Qxd6 Ne5 21. f4 Nf7 22. Qc7 Qd7 23. Re7 Qxc7 24. Rxc7 Re8 25. Bh5 g6 26. Bf3 Nd6 27. c4 Be6 28. Bb2 Rac8 29. Rxc8 Bxc8 30. c5 Ne4 31. Rd1 f5 32. Be5 Kf7 33. a4 a5 34. bxa5 Nxc5 35. Rc1 Nd3 36. Rc7+ Ke6 37. Rxh7 Nxe5 38. fxe5 Rd8 39. Bxb7 Bxb7 40. Rxb7 Rd4 41. Rb6+ Kxe5 (depth 51, 2:22:03)
I'll let this go futher, but +1.98 seems pretty close to "won".

 Posts: 101
 Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:18 pm
Re: analysis of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6
Seems we're getting therezullil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:50 pm+2.08 7. Be2 Bd6 8. Nc3 Qe6 9. Nd4 Qd7 10. Ndb5 Be5 11. OO Qxd1 12. Rxd1 Na6 13. f4 Bxc3 14. bxc3 f5 15. Re1 Nf6 16. Bc4+ Ne4 17. Bd5 Kd8 18. Ba3 Nac5 19. Rad1 Bd7 20. Nd4 Kc8 21. Bxc5 Nxc5 22. Re7 g6 23. Nb3 Nxb3 24. cxb3 a5 25. Bxb7+ Kxb7 26. Rdxd7 Rac8 27. Rxh7 Rxh7 28. Rxh7 Rd8 29. h4 Rd1+ 30. Kh2 Rf1 31. Kg3 a4 32. bxa4 Rc1 33. Rg7 Rxc3+ 34. Kf2 Rc6 35. g4 Rc2+ 36. Ke3 fxg4 37. Rxg6 Rxa2 38. h5 Rxa4 39. Rxg4 (depth 54, 5:39:05)zullil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:39 pmKarol Majewski wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:47 am
I get your point Louis but there is a difference between 'much worse' and 'lost'. It's clear that black is much worse here but is he lost? This is what Uri asked in the first post, I belive. There are many opening positions where engine gives +1.80 and later it occurs that it's not possible to convert this adventage into win.
SFdev with default contempt:
+1.98 7. Be2 Bb4+ 8. c3 Bd6 9. OO Ne7 10. Nbd2 Qg6 11. Re1 OO 12. Nd4 Nbc6 13. Bh5 Qd3 14. Re3 Qa6 15. Be2 Qa5 16. b4 Qg5 17. Nxc6 Nxc6 18. Ne4 Qf5 19. Nxd6 cxd6 20. Qxd6 Ne5 21. f4 Nf7 22. Qc7 Qd7 23. Re7 Qxc7 24. Rxc7 Re8 25. Bh5 g6 26. Bf3 Nd6 27. c4 Be6 28. Bb2 Rac8 29. Rxc8 Bxc8 30. c5 Ne4 31. Rd1 f5 32. Be5 Kf7 33. a4 a5 34. bxa5 Nxc5 35. Rc1 Nd3 36. Rc7+ Ke6 37. Rxh7 Nxe5 38. fxe5 Rd8 39. Bxb7 Bxb7 40. Rxb7 Rd4 41. Rb6+ Kxe5 (depth 51, 2:22:03)
I'll let this go futher, but +1.98 seems pretty close to "won".