TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

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Milos
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Milos » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:31 pm

Rebel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:23 pm
Well, since it's GPL Albert has the obligation to publish all of it, including the weights.
Weights are not GPL'ed and can not be GPL'ed. You can not GPL numbers, it's something you should have figured out by now. ;)

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Rebel
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Rebel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:49 pm

Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:31 pm
Rebel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:23 pm
Well, since it's GPL Albert has the obligation to publish all of it, including the weights.
Weights are not GPL'ed and can not be GPL'ed. You can not GPL numbers, it's something you should have figured out by now. ;)
Legalily that has to be seen, I wouldn't dare to put money on that. Thing is that morally there is an obligation as it is in the spirit of GPL to publish improvements and the improvement is in the weight file.
Everybody is unique, except me.

Milos
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Milos » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:09 pm

Rebel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:49 pm
Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:31 pm
Rebel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:23 pm
Well, since it's GPL Albert has the obligation to publish all of it, including the weights.
Weights are not GPL'ed and can not be GPL'ed. You can not GPL numbers, it's something you should have figured out by now. ;)
Legalily that has to be seen, I wouldn't dare to put money on that. Thing is that morally there is an obligation as it is in the spirit of GPL to publish improvements and the improvement is in the weight file.
Numbers are not copyrightable, end of story, no ifs or buts. As for the other stuff, copyright is only valid if it is enforceable. And it is enforceable only if you can prove that perpetrator made financial gain by violating it. Other than that copyright is nothing but a toilet paper and talking about spirit and morality just makes ppl laugh and you naive as a newborn. ;)

Karol Majewski
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Karol Majewski » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:18 pm

May the 1st 2019 on Chessbase.com:

DeusX 1, the first ever neural network chess engine, is now available on Chessbase. Written by Albert Silver is now the strongest chess engine on the planet (~3700 Elo). Click here to get 20% discount for DeusX 1 and get it for only 2400$.

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Rebel
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Rebel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:28 pm

Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:09 pm
Rebel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:49 pm
Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:31 pm
Rebel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:23 pm
Well, since it's GPL Albert has the obligation to publish all of it, including the weights.
Weights are not GPL'ed and can not be GPL'ed. You can not GPL numbers, it's something you should have figured out by now. ;)
Legalily that has to be seen, I wouldn't dare to put money on that. Thing is that morally there is an obligation as it is in the spirit of GPL to publish improvements and the improvement is in the weight file.
Numbers are not copyrightable, end of story, no ifs or buts. As for the other stuff, copyright is only valid if it is enforceable. And it is enforceable only if you can prove that perpetrator made financial gain by violating it. Other than that copyright is nothing but a toilet paper and talking about spirit and morality just makes ppl laugh and you naive as a newborn. ;)
It's naive :lol: to think you are safe in court. Judges often reason different than us. A judge might very well reason that the weight file is so crucial to the project that it is in the spirit of GPL (sharing) it should be shared.
Everybody is unique, except me.

Milos
Posts: 3379
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:47 am

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Milos » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:34 pm

Rebel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:28 pm
It's naive :lol: to think you are safe in court. Judges often reason different than us. A judge might very well reason that the weight file is so crucial to the project that it is in the spirit of GPL (sharing) it should be shared.
Sorry but you have no clue about what you are talking about. You have totally naive belief what copyright is or simply do not understand it. Try informing yourself first about successful copyright claims and cases in court before writing fairy tales.
In the meanwhile maybe you can also inform Ludolph van Ceulen that someone violated copyright on his number :lol: :lol: :lol:.

frankp
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by frankp » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:45 pm

Heaven's above. Just seen this on TCEC. Perhaps it was a joke.

“DeusX is a neural network, trained by Albert Silver from unique non-Leela data, exclusively from human played games. The engine that executes this network is Lc0, developed by the Leela Chess Zero team. The code for training the neural network, so that it can run in the Lc0 binary, also comes from the Leela Chess Zero project. Deserved credit to the Lc0 team will also be given in any citation of the engine in the following form, “DeusX Neural Network by Albert Silver, powered by Lc0″(c)”


Anyway I have been working hard with a random number generator (not mine) and after 200 hours a new chess program fishstock is born:
“fishstock is a chess program developed from unique non-SF pst data. The engine that executes this network is SF, developed by the SF team. Deserved credit to the SF team will also be given in any citation of the engine in the following form, “fishstock by joe blogs, powered by SF″(c)”

Please may I enter this into TCEC.... I have many versions.

You just have to smile.

Gian-Carlo Pascutto
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Gian-Carlo Pascutto » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:46 pm

Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:09 pm
And it is enforceable only if you can prove that perpetrator made financial gain by violating it.
I don't think so? Try hosting some Fritz or Chessbase ISO images on your webserver for free?

Milos
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Milos » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:55 pm

Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:46 pm
Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:09 pm
And it is enforceable only if you can prove that perpetrator made financial gain by violating it.
I don't think so? Try hosting some Fritz or Chessbase ISO images on your webserver for free?
And Fritz is GPL?
Even though Fritz is ofc not GPL maximum they can do is cut you from the internet by threatening your web provider (famous cease and desist letters). If your webserver is hosted in Russia or China they can literally only kiss your ass. They are never gonna sue you because costs for them would be much higher than any potential financial gain. These days it is much harder to win in court on damages due to lost sales even when they are suing a company. Suing individuals that didn't make any financial gain doesn't work any more even in US of A and in EU or other country is a lost cause from the start.

Gian-Carlo Pascutto
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Gian-Carlo Pascutto » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:07 pm

Well, yeah, I agree that if you are trying to come out net on top then you're better off suing someone that can pay the damages that you can claim and the lawyer fees (and even then it's not easy at all, even in the USA). You can do statutory claims in the USA only if you have registered copyright in the USA, and this wasn't done for lc0 nor Leela Zero. Not sure about similar status elsewhere, my experience doesn't reach that far.

Now, as for the weights, if they are not copyrightable, then anyone who gets the engine can just give them away, same as with the source code. So it doesn't change much.

That said, making the engine closed source is also no guarantee. Rybka -> Ippolit/Robbolito -> ... anyone? Don't think Vasik managed to assert copyright there either, financial gain or not.

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