TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

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Error323
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Error323 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:32 am

Laskos wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:21 am
Error323 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:00 am
whereagles wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:46 am
Underpowered? What would be the necessary upgrade in your opinion, Kai?
The gpus are not underpowered. 2x 1080Ti give about 22 teraflops of 32bit float performance (theoretically). What might happen is that they get too hot due to insufficient cooling. In that case they start throttling down significantly.
Price-wise and power consumption wice, they are underpowered compared to the CPUs used. I don't care about teraflops when comparing GPU to CPU in a competition.
Those Xeon processors have 145W tdp each. Depending on the actual gpus used it's 250-280W each... That's even excluding the CPU used for the Lc0 engine.

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Laskos
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Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Laskos » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:41 am

Error323 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:32 am
Laskos wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:21 am
Error323 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:00 am
whereagles wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:46 am
Underpowered? What would be the necessary upgrade in your opinion, Kai?
The gpus are not underpowered. 2x 1080Ti give about 22 teraflops of 32bit float performance (theoretically). What might happen is that they get too hot due to insufficient cooling. In that case they start throttling down significantly.
Price-wise and power consumption wice, they are underpowered compared to the CPUs used. I don't care about teraflops when comparing GPU to CPU in a competition.
Those Xeon processors have 145W tdp each. Depending on the actual gpus used it's 250-280W each... That's even excluding the CPU used for the Lc0 engine.
Ah, some newer, more power efficient 22 core per CPU Xeon? In that case, only price-wise there is a disbalance. What I can say, is that my i7 4 core CPU and GTX 1060 GPU is a pretty balanced combination, and the results I get Lc0 versus regular engine are somewhat better than what TCEC seems to show now. At that time control, Lc0 would have been far ahead of anything in Division 4 on my computer. Newer nets on GTX 1060 are destroying at this TC Deep Shredder 13 on 4 cores, which is probably above compared to what TCEC will show.

Milos
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Milos » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:23 am

Laskos wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:41 am
Ah, some newer, more power efficient 22 core per CPU Xeon? In that case, only price-wise there is a disbalance. What I can say, is that my i7 4 core CPU and GTX 1060 GPU is a pretty balanced combination, and the results I get Lc0 versus regular engine are somewhat better than what TCEC seems to show now.
Pricewise only because 22-core Xeon is ridiculously expensive compared to its performance, i.e. performance/price ratio is terrible. It's a bit the case like V100.
1060 has the best performance/price ratio within GPUs. Its equivalent within CPUs would be an 8 core Ryzen 7 like 1700. However that one is at least 2x better power wise. And that doesn't include another at least 2 core CPU that you need in order to run Lc0 on 1060, which raises power ratio to 3x and increases the price of Lc0 run system.
Latest SFdev on 16 threads Ryzen 7 1700 is at least 500Elo stronger of the best test (and overall) net in CCRL40/4 equivalent TC on 1060 and all that with 3x less power and cheaper price overall.

frankp
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by frankp » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 pm

deleted duplicate post
Last edited by frankp on Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

frankp
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by frankp » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:53 pm

frankp wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 pm
Leela wins Div4 with a round to spare.

Second place a fight between wasp and the AS clone of leela (with different weights file).

tmokonen
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by tmokonen » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:58 pm

So TCEC is looking for another admin to help for division 3. What happened to the old guy?

Geonerd
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Geonerd » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:27 am

frankp wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 pm
Leela wins Div4 with a round to spare.

Second place a fight between wasp and the AS clone of leela (with different weights file).
Given the drama surrounding Deus X, will Wasp advance to D3 in its place?

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CMCanavessi
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by CMCanavessi » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:15 am

Geonerd wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:27 am
frankp wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 pm
Leela wins Div4 with a round to spare.

Second place a fight between wasp and the AS clone of leela (with different weights file).
Given the drama surrounding Deus X, will Wasp advance to D3 in its place?
No
Follow my tournament and some Leela gauntlets live at http://twitch.tv/ccls

frankp
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by frankp » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:00 am

Geonerd wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:27 am
frankp wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 pm
Leela wins Div4 with a round to spare.

Second place a fight between wasp and the AS clone of leela (with different weights file).
Given the drama surrounding Deus X, will Wasp advance to D3 in its place?
Not seen any official announcement yet, but I imagine the answer is no. It was probably always a 'done deal' when it was accepted in the apparently secretive way it all happened at the last minute.

Obviously a matter for TCEC and their reputation. leela-DX is an interesting project. But if I was the wasp author I would be unhappy about not getting promoted because of a clone - or indeed a program that could not compete because its place was taken in Div 4 by a clone.

The whole situation is so bizarre that I am still waiting for the 'real' plan to be revealed. AS is not a programmer to my knowledge, has never submitted a chess program to a competition before and did not write or contribute to leela in any way, simply produced a weights file (interesting though that is) which is 'powered by leela' as he rather insultingly now says. The weights file is even produced by unaltered leela training code. Obviously DX could not exist without leela. Such arguments have been rehashed many times but have had zero impact as far as I can tell. The clone status is so obvious and this has been known by TCEC for some time now, so I do not expect it be banned at this late stage.

Gian-Carlo Pascutto
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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Post by Gian-Carlo Pascutto » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:47 am

frankp wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:00 am
Not seen any official announcement yet, but I imagine the answer is no. It was probably always a 'done deal' when it was accepted in the apparently secretive way it all happened at the last minute.

Obviously a matter for TCEC and their reputation. leela-DX is an interesting project. But if I was the wasp author I would be unhappy about not getting promoted because of a clone - or indeed a program that could not compete because its place was taken in Div 4 by a clone.

The whole situation is so bizarre that I am still waiting for the 'real' plan to be revealed. AS is not a programmer to my knowledge, has never submitted a chess program to a competition before and did not write or contribute to leela in any way, simply produced a weights file (interesting though that is) which is 'powered by leela' as he rather insultingly now says. The weights file is even produced by unaltered leela training code. Obviously DX could not exist without leela. Such arguments have been rehashed many times but have had zero impact as far as I can tell. The clone status is so obvious and this has been known by TCEC for some time now, so I do not expect it be banned at this late stage.
TCEC has always allowed engines that are derivative works of others, haven't they?

It's up to (all) the other authors to vote with their feet. The core Leela Chess Zero people made a firm statement now that is a bit less conciliatory than the previous one. Will they withdraw Leela Zero from TCEC if DX plays? If they don't, IMHO the statement is without teeth. By playing in the tournament you are supporting the status quo.

Just a bit of my oil to throw on the fire.

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