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Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:01 pm
by ernest
Error323 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:23 pm
Either you have difficulty with English, or the tongue-in-cheek comment...
"As to whether it will be commercial, who can say... If I come out with something that's really spectacular and that outdoes Alphazero, very possibly."
...goes way above your head !

Bravo, Albert and TCEC, for creating the debate ! :twisted:

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:34 pm
by Error323
ernest wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:01 pm
Error323 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:23 pm
Either you have difficulty with English, or the tongue-in-cheek comment...
"As to whether it will be commercial, who can say... If I come out with something that's really spectacular and that outdoes Alphazero, very possibly."
...goes way above your head !

Bravo, Albert and TCEC, for creating the debate ! :twisted:
My comment you mean? You can probably deduce very well what I mean from the context, but if not, I'm happy to clarify.

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:22 pm
by Uri Blass
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:47 am
Can we have Komodo 12(+) regular and Komodo 12(+) MCTS too then?

It would be at least as interesting.
I totally agree.
I think that it is better because at least Komodo MCTS has some different code than Komodo
when Leela and Deus share the same code.

The heart of the program is if then commands and not numbers that you change and I think that is absurd to call Deus a different engine.

Unfortunately TCEC write misleading information:
http://www.chessdom.com/tcec-season-13- ... f-the-nns/
"For the first time ever the TCEC competition is going to see two NN engines competing. "

Instead of it it was better to say something like:
"For the first time ever the TCEC is going to see the same engine twice with the only difference that it get different weights that is equivalent to different value of many parameters like the value of pieces and value of positional things that engine has in their evaluation function for a normal engine."

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:51 pm
by crem
Dear ASilver,

In the response to my post to on LCZero forum, you said that's it's "not even a misunderstanding", which to my understanding means that you don't think that you did anything wrong.

In that case, to help me understand your vision of the situation, would it be possible for you to clarify your position in the following questions:


1. Do you agree that in "DeusX engine" entry submitted to TCEC, total amount of human effort inherited from LCZero and Leela Zero project, is greater than total amount of human effort that you personally contributed?

Reminder: LCZero effort includes, in particular, engine, including MCTS implementation, batching support, cudnn evaluation, movegen, uci support, optimizations and debugging; training script, both for supervised and unsupervised data; and time spent tuning and trying all that, e.g. network and training parameters, underspecified in papers from DeepMind.


2. Do you agree that given the amount of effort inherited from LCZero, and given that LCZero itself participates in TCEC too as a separate entity, it would be fair to announce which parts of your TCEC entry are a direct reuse of parts of LCZero project and how exactly they are different?


3. Why didn't you discuss possibility to use of Lc0 engine for your TCEC entry with LCZero developers? LCZero participates as a separate entity on it's own, and surely you cannot submit the engine that you didn't author without permission from the authors.


4. Why didn't you mention in the interview that you used and are using the code from LCZero project? You had lots of opportunities to do that.


5. You did not write a chess engine. Why didn't you ask TCEC admins to correct the title "Deus X – the NN chess engine by Albert Silver" of this announcement: http://www.chessdom.com/deus-x-the-nn-c ... rt-silver/ and a similar sentence in the article itself?


Thank you in advance for your answers.

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:59 pm
by noobpwnftw
Ouch, I hope if the answers aren't satisfying enough, #3 can be discussed directly with TCEC by someone on your behalf.

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:38 pm
by FWCC
Albert,what do the two engines SHARE? Can you tell us that? Leela and Deus X

FWCC

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:28 pm
by AndrewGrant
5. You did not write a chess engine. Why didn't you ask TCEC admins to correct the title "Deus X – the NN chess engine by Albert Silver" of this announcement: http://www.chessdom.com/deus-x-the-nn-c ... rt-silver/ and a similar sentence in the article itself?
Interestingly, this has been corrected retroactively.

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:08 pm
by arunsoorya1309
In TCEC chat ANTON confirmed that they were not aware that SCORPIO had a NN version, so they did not invite Daniel. However on realizing that
on talkchess, they did invite Daniel but apparently scorpio is not ready to run on windows.

Anton has asked one of us to post it on behalf of him as he is waiting for his user id to be approved.

Regards,
TCEC

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:22 am
by crem
FYI, ASilver replied to my message in LCZero forum:
Alexander,

I have pretty much said all I have to say on the matter, though I have no control over whether you accept my statements or not. I do not see any constructive outcome for any parties in pursuing a public argument on this, so I must decline this invitation. Should you have anything in private you want to talk about, you have my email.

Peace,

Albert
So, there will be no answers to those 5 questions.

Re: TCEC season 13, 2 NN engines will be participating, Leela and Deus X

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:33 am
by Ozymandias
crem wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:22 am
FYI, ASilver replied to my message in LCZero forum:
Alexander,

I have pretty much said all I have to say on the matter, though I have no control over whether you accept my statements or not. I do not see any constructive outcome for any parties in pursuing a public argument on this, so I must decline this invitation. Should you have anything in private you want to talk about, you have my email.

Peace,

Albert
So, there will be no answers to those 5 questions.
I'm guessing that writing a guide on how to train nets on your own, would allow anyone to answer the first one in his instead. The other ones are conduct-related, so to anyone his own.