Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

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Milos
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by Milos » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:30 pm

sovaz1997 wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:27 pm
Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:24 pm
CMCanavessi wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:10 pm
Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:01 pm
CMCanavessi wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:37 pm
That rule talks about "engine bugs", which clearly wasn't the case here. It was a server issue, not an engine(s) issue. I think it's sad that Arasan will promote only because it was given a free point when Nemorino was about to beat it and crashed + was helped by the server issue that affected both Leela and lc0. The whole purpose of the tournament is that stronger engines should play the highest leagues. Here, clearly, lc0 and Ethereal were the strongest engines, by far, yet, because the server was misconfigured/poorly cooled/whatever, an engine will not advance. There wasn't anything the devs could do.
Oh cry me a river. So much whining. Like kids. Ppl really get this too personally.
You didn't even say a word when Ivanhoe was playing with a wrong binary (sent by competitor with agenda against Ivanhoe) that was never ever tested by TCEC, even though TCEC in the past already had a properly working binry. With working Ivanhoe Lc0 would anyway never promote to Div2 since it is most certainly weaker than Ivanhoe on 43 cores in TCEC conditions (that is of a strength of Gull).
So go cry somewhere else please. This is just ridiculous.
Where did I say that lc0 should advance instead of Arasan? Learn to read.
And also, even if you put ASMFish in div4, leela still promotes, because top 2 do so. Learn the rules.
You said "it is sad that Arasan will promote" as something unfair and you also said that "lc0 and Ethereal were the strongest engines, by far", both of the claims frankly total bullshit (Ethereal is clearly the strongest but Lc0 certainly not). And then you are asking where did you say Lc0 should advance instead of Arasan??? I know English is not your first language, but seems you are really lacking some basic comprehension at least functional one.
You seems so angry that you can't even read properly. I clearly wrote that Lc0 wouldn't promote to Div2 because Ethereal and Ivanhoe would promote instead.
You should try to calm down, or if you can't go somewhere cry a bit and then after you feel a bit less sad and angry come back to comment ;).
Lol you really think that IvanHoe on 43 cores stronger than Lc0?
I know that Droidfish on my cellphone is stronger than Lc0 on 1060 for certain. :lol:
The other one judging by Lc0 performance so far is pretty probable. But anyway it is easy to test. You only need 44 cores server and 2x1080Ti and you can try yourself ;).

sovaz1997
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by sovaz1997 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:38 pm

I do not know what version you have. But you will see all the power of Lc0 in bonus games :)
Zevra chess engine
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Milos
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by Milos » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:44 pm

sovaz1997 wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:38 pm
I do not know what version you have. But you will see all the power of Lc0 in bonus games :)
I am pretty sure neither you nor the "devs" have even a clue which version is the strongest. Simply because they are bunch of incompetent kids who don't know much if anything about computer chess design or testing, beside 2-3 ppl that actually know some stuff about NN training and cudnn optimisation (crem being 90% of them in reality).

sovaz1997
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by sovaz1997 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:04 pm

Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:44 pm
sovaz1997 wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:38 pm
I do not know what version you have. But you will see all the power of Lc0 in bonus games :)
I am pretty sure neither you nor the "devs" have even a clue which version is the strongest. Simply because they are bunch of incompetent kids who don't know much if anything about computer chess design or testing, beside 2-3 ppl that actually know some stuff about NN training and cudnn optimisation (crem being 90% of them in reality).
I wrote my engine and know a little about testing. But who are you, I don't know.
Zevra chess engine
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Milos
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by Milos » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:14 pm

sovaz1997 wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:04 pm
Milos wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:44 pm
sovaz1997 wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:38 pm
I do not know what version you have. But you will see all the power of Lc0 in bonus games :)
I am pretty sure neither you nor the "devs" have even a clue which version is the strongest. Simply because they are bunch of incompetent kids who don't know much if anything about computer chess design or testing, beside 2-3 ppl that actually know some stuff about NN training and cudnn optimisation (crem being 90% of them in reality).
I wrote my engine and know a little about testing. But who are you, I don't know.
Good, then you can maybe go and help Lc0 "devs" ;).
Or at least tell them which net to use.

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George Tsavdaris
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by George Tsavdaris » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:25 pm

kranium wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:58 am
Here's the rule:

"Critical Engine Bugs
In the case of a serious, play-limiting bug (like crashing or interface communication problems, not including losses on time) not discovered during the pre-Season testing, the engine can be updated once per Division to fix this/these bug/bugs only. If this update still doesn't fix the problem(s) or if there is no update available, the engine might have the number of cores reduced, have the hash size reduced or have the tablebase access disabled - these changes will remain for the rest of the Division."

The key words are: "play-limiting" (crashing or interface communication problems)
Clearly this was not the case for Lc0 and DeusX...

PS George-
lowering cores means changing the engine config, reducing ('tweaking') the UCI parameter for that particular engine, not for the entire system
Well the way i see it is that the server they rented for the GPUs is HORRIBLE. They even lowered the GPUs speed to 65% and they are still overheating!
So the way i see it, is with the hardware they have chosen they crippled the NNS a LOT! So to ensure a sensible tournament, better late than never, they "fixed"(by lowering GPUs speed to 65%/85% in each GPU, but at least preventing the complete crippling of NNs that was happening) that even perhaps against their rules as you say, 9 games before the end.
I find it fair not to be a complete unfairness to NNs.

Imagine what people would say if this had happened in AB engines in the 43 core system and that to be overheating or something and the engines had to run with 70% speed for example. They would corrected it as fast as possible of course. Even breaking their rules.
And this is the hypocrisy of many. That are screaming now for all these against the 2 NNs(mainly Leela) but in the opposing situation they would scream that things should be fixed in the hardware.
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....

Dann Corbit
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:40 pm

I guess that they will do better next year.

Lc0 was not going to win this year, anyway. It's a long way below the best engines.
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chrisw
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by chrisw » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:02 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:40 pm
I guess that they will do better next year.

Lc0 was not going to win this year, anyway. It's a long way below the best engines.
I wonder how it would be if NN engines had been around since fifty years or so, and then someone came along with this great new idea of CPU based alpha beta (based on the new serial computing technology SVX 15080 DepthRipper) which could pick its way through a massive swamp of tactical and other complications and emerge the other side with the new Polynomial Eval (understandable to humans because sum of simple parts) leaving NN engines still stuck in unknown swamp.

zullil
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by zullil » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:40 pm
I guess that they will do better next year.

Lc0 was not going to win this year, anyway. It's a long way below the best engines.
There seem to be many who disagree with you regarding the magnitude---and, in some cases, the sign---of the gap. :) Based on my visits to TCEC recently, Lc0 has quite a "cult" following. More so than any other engine, in my experience.

Milos
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Re: Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

Post by Milos » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:16 pm

zullil wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:06 pm
Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:40 pm
I guess that they will do better next year.

Lc0 was not going to win this year, anyway. It's a long way below the best engines.
There seem to be many who disagree with you regarding the magnitude---and, in some cases, the sign---of the gap. :) Based on my visits to TCEC recently, Lc0 has quite a "cult" following. More so than any other engine, in my experience.
The amount of fanboyism there is unprecedented. Today was a very sad day for most of the crowd there. Most would be pretty depressive by tomorrow and TCEC viewers would drop to 1/4 of what was so far. ;)

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