Strange Lc0 TCEC performance

[chrisw]

I am still on the page that a self-trained neural network (probably not optimised for the task) given ‘only the rules of chess’ can in a few months hold its own against good AB engines, which are based on decades of research and development optimising search and the evaluation of terminal nodes.

The fact that such an entity cannot be run very well on a cpu but needs a graphics card instead seems frankly irrelevant, other than to an individual who may want to run it on their own pc at close to full strength.

This thread was started by Leo, who said:

“I have had major doubts about Lc0 from the beginning. It reminds me of quantum computing. It has all this potential but is still years away from emerging. " 1 bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush's."

I tend to disagree. The hardware already exists to run Lc0 at a ‘very high’ level, will get better quickly, as, I expect, so will Lc0.

This is new territory, but it will be interesting to see if Lc0 can surpass A0's ‘flat-lining’ when it moves to bigger networks as the hardware becomes available to make this possible. Will pure AB engines be able to match this rate of development. I guess we will find out.

It will be interesting to look back on these ‘discussions’ in a few years time.

Agreed. It's very interesting, plenty of multi-various factors in play, technical, economic bla bla everything. Plus there's a metric. How the story will play out, we really don't know. Is amusing to watch the "crowd gone mad" aspect, if one takes an interest in the psychology.

[Milos]

I am still on the page that a self-trained neural network (probably not optimised for the task) given ‘only the rules of chess’ can in a few months hold its own against good AB engines, which are based on decades of research and development optimising search and the evaluation of terminal nodes.

This comparison is really not fair.
For A/B engine you can take source code compile it and you are good to go. It literary requires no libs. With NN engines just to run them you require hundreds of MBs of specialized libs just to perform inference, not even mentioning training. And in development of those libs has been involved much more effort than in total history of computer chess.

[duncan]

Watch a game of TCEC -- Leela best moves will match the opponents predictions for large chunks of the game.

This is clearly misleading since this happens with all pairs of strong opponents.
And yet after only 6 games in the bonus games between Leela 10520 and 10800 against Ethereal 10.81 with 6 draws out of 6 games where Leela in all controlled the game, in 2 it completely outplayed Ethereal in the middlegame.
So how to say Ethereal matched Leela's predictions when it got outplayed?

Leela 10520 - Ethereal 10.81



Ethereal 10.81 - Leela 10809


And this was full 43 cores TCEC Ethereal, while Leela was struggling playing with 1 GPU due to the thermal problems!
8000$ versus 900$ hardware in favor of Ethereal.

In the aforementioned 2 games i said, Leela didn't won since she couldn't find the winning moves in the endgame:
In the one game the 49.Rd7! was winning much easier instead of 49.R2d5, but still this was also winning and Leela missed 54.Bf5 that would win and played 54.Kd5 with the Kc6? plan that draws.
And in the other game 48....g5+ would win instead of Ra1?!


The games (they contain also the 3 Leela - SF8 43-cores bonus games that were also all draws)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AhNm0 ... CyW8BPa_iD

Big out play followed by a draw ... hmmm

Also, $8k is an awful talking point. For $800 I get 70% of TCEC NPS -- with the newer Ryzens you can get 100%, maybe more, with < $2k.

Oh ... and Leela needs a CPU too you know. Much more than a single $800 GPU...

your engine seems to attract a lot of interest. If this is not too personal question, are you by any chance super brilliant ?

[Milos]

your engine seems to attract a lot of interest. If this is not too personal question, are you by any chance super brilliant ?

Hey Duncan, your questions seems to be very controversial. If this is not too personal question, are you by any chance super dumb ?

[AndrewGrant]

your engine seems to attract a lot of interest. If this is not too personal question, are you by any chance super brilliant ?

... troll question, but I suppose I'll answer ... ?

I don't consider myself to be brilliant, no. Knowledgeable, yes.

[frankp]

I am still on the page that a self-trained neural network (probably not optimised for the task) given ‘only the rules of chess’ can in a few months hold its own against good AB engines, which are based on decades of research and development optimising search and the evaluation of terminal nodes.

This comparison is really not fair.
For A/B engine you can take source code compile it and you are good to go. It literary requires no libs. With NN engines just to run them you require hundreds of MBs of specialized libs just to perform inference, not even mentioning training. And in development of those libs has been involved much more effort than in total history of computer chess.

I was referring to the absence of explicitly human encoded domain specific knowledge painstaking honed over many decades, other than 'the rules of the game'.

My wonder is still that such an entity plays chess at a very high level with no more than self-taught linear algebra - so to speak.

[corres]

My wonder is still that such an entity plays chess at a very high level with no more than self-taught linear algebra - so to speak.

Maybe the linear algebra write down well the essence of chess.
There were attempts to model the chess with graphs also.

[duncan]

your engine seems to attract a lot of interest. If this is not too personal question, are you by any chance super brilliant ?

Hey Duncan, your questions seems to be very controversial. If this is not too personal question, are you by any chance super dumb ?

I will answer that question if you answer a question of mine. You have a sharp mind but I believe your tongue is sharper than your mind. which would you say is sharper your tongue or your mind ?

[Damir]

The concept of taming the tongue is found in James 3 where God declares, through the apostle James, that “no one can tame the tongue” (James 3:8). The lengthy discussion about the tongue in this chapter is both convicting and illuminating. Among the things this chapter reveals about the tongue: it is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts (verse 5); it is a fire and a world of evil that defiles the whole person (verse 6); it is set on fire by hell (verse 6); and it is an unrestrainable evil and full of deadly poison (verse 7). Is it any wonder, then, that God declares that taming the tongue is impossible?

When Adam sinned, God imputed that sin to mankind, so, whether or not we want to believe it, every human being is born with a wicked heart and an evil sin nature (Romans 3:10–18). Lurking within each of us are varying degrees of hatred, bitterness, jealousy, and pride, and the tongue takes hold of these and other destructive tendencies and strikes out, often with a push from Satan. We see this every day among strangers, friends, siblings, and, worst of all, among husbands and wives, the very people who, next to their love for the Lord Jesus, should have the most love for each other (Ephesians 5:22–33).

What is to be done, then, to tame the tongue? If God has declared that “no one” can tame the tongue, how can we even begin to do so? While many people have quit smoking or drinking by the power of the human will, the problem of the heart and tongue cannot be solved by human will power. It takes the power of the resurrected Christ within us to control the tongue, and that power is available only to those who turn their lives over to Him (Romans 8:10–14). As with so many things in life, “with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).

There is only One who can control the tongue. Only by God’s Spirit living within us can we hope to gain control over our tongues. He convicts us when we sin with our lips, and that conviction drives us to repent and pray for more filling of the Spirit so we can avoid further sin. As we cling to Him and yield to Him in obedience, He controls us more and more, including our tongues.

[zullil]

The concept of taming the tongue is found in James 3 where God declares, through the apostle James, that “no one can tame the tongue” (James 3:8). The lengthy discussion about the tongue in this chapter is both convicting and illuminating. Among the things this chapter reveals about the tongue: it is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts (verse 5); it is a fire and a world of evil that defiles the whole person (verse 6); it is set on fire by hell (verse 6); and it is an unrestrainable evil and full of deadly poison (verse 7). Is it any wonder, then, that God declares that taming the tongue is impossible?

When Adam sinned, God imputed that sin to mankind, so, whether or not we want to believe it, every human being is born with a wicked heart and an evil sin nature (Romans 3:10–18). Lurking within each of us are varying degrees of hatred, bitterness, jealousy, and pride, and the tongue takes hold of these and other destructive tendencies and strikes out, often with a push from Satan. We see this every day among strangers, friends, siblings, and, worst of all, among husbands and wives, the very people who, next to their love for the Lord Jesus, should have the most love for each other (Ephesians 5:22–33).

What is to be done, then, to tame the tongue? If God has declared that “no one” can tame the tongue, how can we even begin to do so? While many people have quit smoking or drinking by the power of the human will, the problem of the heart and tongue cannot be solved by human will power. It takes the power of the resurrected Christ within us to control the tongue, and that power is available only to those who turn their lives over to Him (Romans 8:10–14). As with so many things in life, “with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).

There is only One who can control the tongue. Only by God’s Spirit living within us can we hope to gain control over our tongues. He convicts us when we sin with our lips, and that conviction drives us to repent and pray for more filling of the Spirit so we can avoid further sin. As we cling to Him and yield to Him in obedience, He controls us more and more, including our tongues.

Taken from https://www.gotquestions.org/taming-the-tongue.html