Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

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megamau
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Location: Singapore

Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by megamau » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:37 am

DrCliche wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:52 am
CCCC has shown and continues to show utter disregard for and gross disrespect to the engines, authors, fans, and casual viewers alike....

...their decisions are nonsensical and likely to lead to unmitigated disasterr, then when the very things they were warned about transpire, they lie, deflect, and attempt to cover up their mistakes without making any effort to actually address the problems. But at least they do it all for free! (As if anything in this world is free.)
It is exactly this kind of attitude that I find appalling.

It is a friendly and free Chess Tournament !! It is not the cure for cancer or the election for president.

There is no cost or obligation to participate or to watch. Nobody had to do anything except the guys at chess.com
They could have as well run it for their own fun, without streaming. It would have been the exact same condition, but nobody would have complained.
Who knows if there is some bug or wrong setup by the many testers that publish results without streaming or publishing PGN ?

If you find the condition unfair, and are not able to give polite suggestions, simply stop watching.
If you find the results do not show the real strength of the engines, you are free to say so and point to other testing (CCRL, TCEC, anything).

But please don't make these first tourney teething problem sound like a crime against humanity.

zullil
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Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by zullil » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:26 am

megamau wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:37 am
DrCliche wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:52 am
CCCC has shown and continues to show utter disregard for and gross disrespect to the engines, authors, fans, and casual viewers alike....

...their decisions are nonsensical and likely to lead to unmitigated disasterr, then when the very things they were warned about transpire, they lie, deflect, and attempt to cover up their mistakes without making any effort to actually address the problems. But at least they do it all for free! (As if anything in this world is free.)
It is exactly this kind of attitude that I find appalling.

It is a friendly and free Chess Tournament !! It is not the cure for cancer or the election for president.

There is no cost or obligation to participate or to watch. Nobody had to do anything except the guys at chess.com
They could have as well run it for their own fun, without streaming. It would have been the exact same condition, but nobody would have complained.
Who knows if there is some bug or wrong setup by the many testers that publish results without streaming or publishing PGN ?

If you find the condition unfair, and are not able to give polite suggestions, simply stop watching.
If you find the results do not show the real strength of the engines, you are free to say so and point to other testing (CCRL, TCEC, anything).

But please don't make these first tourney teething problem sound like a crime against humanity.
Well said, in my opinion. Yes, mistakes were made. Concerns were raised (including by me) that apparently went unheeded---perhaps in order to allow a certain user experience (live pvs from both engines) that I personally find valueless. But the vitriol in a certain post above seems excessive, almost pathological. It's some computer programs playing chess, basically for fun.

DrCliche
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Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by DrCliche » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:40 am

Chess.com is a for-profit enterprise. These 100+ people do not work for free. Chess.com is running this tournament because they believe it will have a positive return on investment by attracting eyeballs that will become paying customers. This is not a "friendly and free chess tournament". This is a business calculation, a "free" product meant to sell premium memberships to their website and copies of their engine, Komodo. And if it doesn't, they will kill the project. So stop it with all this "it's just some friendly engine games, you don't have to watch, gosh" stuff. This isn't two kids in a basement. This is a product, and one which is woefully deficient by any reasonable measure.

  • Either you hold people accountable for their decisions and actions, or you don't.
  • Either you value knowledge, experience, and the consensus of experts, or you don't.
  • Either you demand truth, transparency, and honesty in your communities, or you don't.

I will not excuse the inexcusable manner in which Chess.com and its agents have been conducting this tournament, and you shouldn't either. Respect yourself enough to demand excellence from those around you, and challenge those who are content with failure and mediocrity.

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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:03 am

DrCliche wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:40 am
Chess.com is a for-profit enterprise. These 100+ people do not work for free. Chess.com is running this tournament because they believe it will have a positive return on investment by attracting eyeballs that will become paying customers. This is not a "friendly and free chess tournament". This is a business calculation, a "free" product meant to sell premium memberships to their website and copies of their engine, Komodo.

What's wrong with that? It is still free and friendly.
It's not the only commercial chess site.


And if it doesn't, they will kill the project. So stop it with all this "it's just some friendly engine games, you don't have to watch, gosh" stuff. This isn't two kids in a basement. This is a product, and one which is woefully deficient by any reasonable measure.

They have admitted that mistakes may have been made and stated that they hope to improve.
We will absolutely take this seriously and look at what is going on. Everybody wants (and deserves!) a fair game, and we want to make sure that happens.

  • Either you hold people accountable for their decisions and actions, or you don't.
  • Either you value knowledge, experience, and the consensus of experts, or you don't.
  • Either you demand truth, transparency, and honesty in your communities, or you don't.

I will not excuse the inexcusable manner in which Chess.com and its agents have been conducting this tournament, and you shouldn't either. Respect yourself enough to demand excellence from those around you, and challenge those who are content with failure and mediocrity.
I do think that you're being unnecessarily harsh and aggressive.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

Nay Lin Tun
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Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:10 am

DrCliche wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:40 am
Chess.com is a for-profit enterprise. These 100+ people do not work for free. Chess.com is running this tournament because they believe it will have a positive return on investment by attracting eyeballs that will become paying customers. This is not a "friendly and free chess tournament". This is a business calculation, a "free" product meant to sell premium memberships to their website and copies of their engine, Komodo. And if it doesn't, they will kill the project. So stop it with all this "it's just some friendly engine games, you don't have to watch, gosh" stuff. This isn't two kids in a basement. This is a product, and one which is woefully deficient by any reasonable measure.

  • Either you hold people accountable for their decisions and actions, or you don't.
  • Either you value knowledge, experience, and the consensus of experts, or you don't.
  • Either you demand truth, transparency, and honesty in your communities, or you don't.

I will not excuse the inexcusable manner in which Chess.com and its agents have been conducting this tournament, and you shouldn't either. Respect yourself enough to demand excellence from those around you, and challenge those who are content with failure and mediocrity.
Being a member of chess.com for 10 years. I pay $0.00 . It is absoultely free. I played 22,000 online blitz+ bullets games, there is no difference for free users vs premium user in competitive game play There are millions of other users who dont pay $0.00 like me. Being a freemium business model, premium members can access chess videos, chess courses etc.

Google , facebook etc are multibillion dollar business model but they are absolutely free to billions of users. Billions of users are using their services. (If you dont like them, you can simply avoid them)

It is the same, if you dont like chess.com, feel free to ignore their service. I am absolutely enjoying these chess com computer chess championship and having fun in their forum everyday. I bet millions of other users are enjoying in chess.com. That is why they are the most popular No .1 chess site.

https://imgur.com/a/sbwQZ4p

zullil
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Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by zullil » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:24 am

DrCliche wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:40 am
Respect yourself enough to demand excellence from those around you, and challenge those who are content with failure and mediocrity.
Maybe choose a more important target than a chess site. I mean, you're starting to sound a bit unhinged (at least to me). Maybe take a break.

megamau
Posts: 37
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Location: Singapore

Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by megamau » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:16 pm

DrCliche wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:40 am
Chess.com is a for-profit enterprise. These 100+ people do not work for free... This is a product, and one which is woefully deficient by any reasonable measure.
Ok.
Demand a full refund then.

BrendanJNorman
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Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by BrendanJNorman » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:30 pm

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:10 am

Being a member of chess.com for 10 years. I pay $0.00 . It is absoultely free. I played 22,000 online blitz+ bullets games, there is no difference for free users vs premium user in competitive game play There are millions of other users who dont pay $0.00 like me. Being a freemium business model, premium members can access chess videos, chess courses etc.

Google , facebook etc are multibillion dollar business model but they are absolutely free to billions of users. Billions of users are using their services. (If you dont like them, you can simply avoid them)
Although I agree that people shouldn't complain about things they get for free (I get this a lot myself), but I don't like the common implication that companies give things away out of pure altruism.

There is a saying that I like which goes:

"If something is free, YOU are the product"

Facebook makes literally hundreds of millions selling your personal information to data companies (who then use it to do things like influence elections, sell stuff to you, and so on).

Chess.com makes millions just from the advertising they show to free members, not even mentioning premium members.

And I'm not knocking it....I'm a supporter of capitalism as long as it is (mostly) ethical.

But the "they are doing everything for YOU...and you don't appreciate it" argument is pretty ignorant in my opinion.

Not trying to offend anyone, but as someone who has worked for big chess companies in the marketing department, I can tell you they are VERY serious about getting big RIO for anything free that is given away.

And their management is FURIOUS when the RIO is not big enough.

And this is how it should be.

jp
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Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by jp » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:43 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:30 pm
There is a saying that I like which goes:
"If something is free, YOU are the product"

Facebook makes literally hundreds of millions selling your personal information to data companies (who then use it to do things like influence elections, sell stuff to you, and so on).

Chess.com makes millions just from the advertising they show to free members, not even mentioning premium members.

And I'm not knocking it....I'm a supporter of capitalism as long as it is (mostly) ethical.
Yep. Facebook showed society can be harmed "for free".

Nothing wrong with running a business for profit, but read through this thread & see how someone made it sound like the public are beggars getting charity and any criticism must be from "egotistical" "haters".

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George Tsavdaris
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Re: Chess.com 2018 computer chess championship

Post by George Tsavdaris » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:45 pm

Nirvana-Fire game:
Nirvana found 24.Qd1!! that draws. Most engines want to play Kh2 that must lose as i've analyzed, even though it's a tough endgame(Queen endgame with black to have 1 more Pawn and black King to have a good shelter for checks).
How much time for Qd1?

[d]6k1/2p2pp1/p4qp1/1P6/2pP1n2/2P4P/1PQBrPP1/5RK1 w - - 0 24



After that 24...Rxd2 25.Qxd2 Qg5 26.Qxf4!! Qxf4 27.bxa6 is forced.
And then e.g 27...Qe4(doesn't matter the move) 28.a7 Qa8 29.Ra1 and this is draw

[d]q5k1/P1p2pp1/6p1/8/2pP4/2P4P/1P3PP1/R5K1 b - - 0 29
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....

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