Nice EG fortress

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Nordlandia
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Nice EG fortress

Post by Nordlandia »

[d]1B2b2k/2N1qr2/4n2p/4p1PQ/1r2N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 w - - 0 0

[pgn][Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "2018.10.12"] [Round "?"] [White "New game"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "1B2b2k/2N1qr2/4n2p/4p1PQ/1r2N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 w - - 0 0"] [PlyCount "19"] 1. Nd5 Rc4+ 2. Kb1 Rc1+ 3. Kb2 Rf2+ 4. Nxf2 Rb1+ 5. Kxb1 Qh7+ 6. g6 Bxg6+ 7. Bc2 bxc2+ 8. Kc1 Bxh5 9. Bxe5+ Ng7 10. Ne7 * [/pgn]


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AdminX
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Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by AdminX »

Following the main line:
Ahh I see the fortess ... Nxg4 is losing.

[d]7k/4N1nq/7p/4B2b/8/8/2p2N1P/2K5 b - - 2 10 [/d]

Code: Select all

FEN: 7k/4N1nq/7p/4B2b/8/8/2p2N1P/2K5 b - - 2 10

Lc0 Ver. 19:
 9/22	02:10	 2,511k	14k	+14.16	Bh5-e2 h2-h4 h6-h5 Nf2-h3 Qh7-d3 Nh3-g5 Qd3-d1+ Kc1-b2 c2-c1Q+ Kb2-a2 Qc1-b1+ Ka2-a3 Qb1-b3+
 9/22	02:10	 2,511k	14k	+13.51	Bh5-g6 Nf2-g4 Bg6-f7 Ne7-f5 Qh7xf5 Be5xg7+ Kh8xg7 Ng4-e3 Qf5-f2 Ne3xc2 Bf7-g6 Nc2-a1 Qf2-a2
 9/22	02:10	 2,511k	14k	+14.52	Bh5-d1 h2-h4 h6-h5 Nf2-h3 Qh7-d3 Nh3-g5 Qd3-a3+ Kc1-d2 c2-c1Q+ Kd2-e1 Qc1-e3+ Ke1xd1 Qa3-c1+
 9/22	02:10	 2,511k	14k	+15.15	Bh5-f7 h2-h4 h6-h5 Be5-f4 Bf7-b3 Nf2-h3 Qh7-d3 Nh3-g5 Qd3-d1+ Kc1-b2 Bb3-e6 Ne7-g6+ Kh8-g8 Ng6-e7+
 9/22	02:10	 2,511k	14k	+15.42	Bh5-e8 h2-h4 h6-h5 Be5-f4 Be8-d7 Bf4-d2 Bd7-a4 Nf2-h3 Qh7-d3 Ne7-g6+ Qd3xg6 Nh3-g5 Qg6-b6 Bd2-b4 Qb6xb4 Ng5-f3 Qb4-f4+
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 10/24	04:12	 4,716k	16k	+13.90	Bh5-e2 h2-h4 h6-h5 Nf2-h3 Qh7-d3 Nh3-g5 Qd3-d1+ Kc1-b2 c2-c1Q+ Kb2-a2 Qc1-b1+ Ka2-a3 Qb1-b3+
 10/24	04:12	 4,716k	16k	+13.14	Bh5-g6 Nf2-g4 Bg6-f7 Ne7-f5 Qh7xf5 Be5xg7+ Kh8xg7 Ng4-e3 Qf5-f2 Ne3xc2 Bf7-g6 Nc2-a1 Qf2-a2
 10/24	04:12	 4,716k	16k	+14.35	Bh5-d1 Be5-f4 h6-h5 Nf2-h3 Qh7-e4 Nh3-g5 Qe4xe7 Ng5-h3 Qe7-a3+ Kc1-d2 c2-c1R Nh3-f2 Qa3-c3+
 10/24	04:12	 4,716k	16k	+15.16	Bh5-f7 Be5-f4 h6-h5 h2-h4 Bf7-b3 Bf4-g5 Bb3-a4 Nf2-h3 Qh7-d3 Nh3-f2 Qd3-a3+ Kc1-d2 c2-c1R Ne7-g6+ Kh8-h7 Bg5-e7 Qa3-c3+
 10/24	04:12	 4,716k	16k	+15.20	Bh5-e8 h2-h4 h6-h5 Be5-f4 Be8-b5 Nf2-h3 Qh7-e4 Nh3-g5 Qe4xe7 Kc1xc2 Qe7-e2+ Kc2-c3 Qe2-c4+ Kc3-d2 Qc4-d3+ Kd2-c1
[pgn] [Event "Computer chess game"] [Site "HAKIN94LIFE"] [Date "2018.10.12"] [Round "?"] [White "tedsu"] [Black "tedsu"] [Result "*"] [BlackElo "2400"] [Time "05:39:35"] [WhiteElo "2400"] [TimeControl "1/259200:300"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "1B2b2k/2N1qr2/4n2p/4p1PQ/1r2N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 w - - 0 1"] [Termination "unterminated"] [PlyCount "22"] [WhiteType "human"] [BlackType "human"] 1. Nd5 Rc4+ 2. Kb1 Rc1+ 3. Kb2 Rf2+ 4. Nxf2 Rb1+ 5. Kxb1 Qh7+ 6. g6 (6. Kb2 Bxh5 7. Bxe5+ Ng7 8. Ne7 hxg5) 6. .. Bxg6+ 7. Bc2 bxc2+ 8. Kc1 Bxh5 9. Bxe5+ Ng7 10. Ne7 Bg4 11. Nxg4 Qd3 * [/pgn]
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Dann Corbit
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Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by Dann Corbit »

Arves has a couple links with this one:
http://www.arves.org/arves/index.php/en ... 80-mt-2017
http://www.arves.org/arves/index.php/en ... rizes-2017

If you like fun positions, Arves is even better than yacpdb, because they have explanatory articles.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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JVMerlino
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Location: San Francisco, California

Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by JVMerlino »

I'm not necessarily saying that I trust engines in this kind of study, but 12...Ne8 seems quite inferior to other moves. Every engine I tested shows the score going from at least -8 for Black to near draw with that single move.

[D]7k/4N1nq/8/7p/5BbP/8/2p2N2/2K5 b - - 0 12

It's likely that other moves, such as 12...Bf3 or 12...Be6 just delay the inevitable. But since there is no commentary for 12...Ne8 on Arves, I have to wonder.... :?:

jm
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Dann Corbit
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Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by Dann Corbit »

I am doing a study analyzing the moves in reverse right now.
We will see if that draws any interesting points to light.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12542
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by Dann Corbit »

I think this is the patch that gives engines fits:

Code: Select all

Searching: 1B2b2k/7q/4n2p/3Np1PQ/8/1p6/5N1P/1K1B4 w - - 0 1
infinite: 0 time: 0 increment: 0 moves to go: 0

 1   -0.42   00:00    5621  Kb2 Bxh5
 2   -1.94   00:00   30686  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxh5
 3   -2.66   00:00   63063  Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7
 4   -2.69   00:00   83436  Ka1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Bxh5
 5   -2.66   00:00  104386  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 gxh6 Qxh6
 6   -1.99   00:00  126631  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3
 7   -1.84   00:00  147260  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf7 h4 hxg5 hxg5
 8   -1.61   00:00  175318  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bg6 Bxb3 hxg5 Kc3 Qh5
 9   -2.07   00:00  196955  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 h3 Qh6
10   -2.03   00:00  222330  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Kc1 Qh5 Bd1 g4 Nxg6+ Qxg6
11   -2.15   00:00  272114  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Kc1 Qh5 Nxg6+ Qxg6 Kd2 Qb6
12   -2.26   00:00  410033  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 h3 Qh6 Ng4 Qh5 Bd5 Bd3 Kc3 Qxh3
13   -2.98   00:00  708867  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Bd5 Qh5 Nxg6+ Qxg6 Kc3 Qf5 Nd3 Kh7 Kc2 Kh6 Kd2 Kg6 Ke2
14   -3.17   00:00   1833K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Nxg6+ Qxg6 h3 Qc6 Bd4 Qb5 Kc3 Kh7 Ne4 Nf5
15   -2.67   00:00   2104K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 h3 Qh6 Bf6 Be8 Ne4 Qxh3 Nxg5 Qh2+ Bc2
16   -3.42   00:00   2972K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Ng4 Qh5 Nxg6+ Qxg6 Bc3 Qf5 Nf6 Qf2+ Ka3 Qf3 Kb2 Qe2+ Ka3 Qd3 Nd5 Kh7 Kb4
17   -3.32   00:00   3248K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 h3 Bb1 Bf6 Qh4 Ng4 Qe1 Bxg5 Nh5 Nd5 Bg6 Be3 Qb1+ Ka3 Qa1+ Kb4 Bf7 Bc4
18   -3.54   00:00   5390K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Ng4 Qh5 Nxg6+ Qxg6 Bc3 Qd3 Ne5 Qe2+ Ka3 Qe3 Kb4 Qb6+ Ka3 Qc5+ Kb2 Qf2+ Kb1 Qg1+ Kb2 Qxh2+ Ka3 Kh7
19   -3.79   00:00  12940K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Bd1 Bb1 Nd5 Qf5 Ng4 Qe4 Nde3 Qb4+ Bb3 Qb5 Ka3 Bh7 Bc4 Qc5+ Kb3 Bg8 Bxg8
20   -3.93   00:01  18245K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Bc3 Be4 Be5 Bb1 Bg3 Qh6 Kxb1 Qb6 Kc2 Qc5+ Kd3 Qxe7 Ne4 Nf5 Bf2 Qa3 Kc2 Qa6 Kd2 Qb5
21   -3.83   00:01  23522K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Ng4 Qh5 Nxg6+ Qxg6 Bc3 Qb6 Kc2 Qb5 Ne5 Nf5 Bc4 Ne3+ Kd3 Nxc4 Nxc4+ Kg8 Be5 Kf7 Kd4
22   -4.06   00:02  29514K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Bd1 Bb1 Bg3 Qh6 Kxb1 Qe6 Kc2 Qxe7 Ng4 Kg8 Be5 Qc5+ Kd2 Qd5+ Ke1 Kf7 Bc3 Nf5 Be2 Nd4 Bxd4
23   -4.17   00:02  37219K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Bd1 Bb1 Bg3 Qh6 Kxb1 Qe6 Ng4 Qxe7 Be5 Kg8 Kc1 Qc5+ Kd2 Qd5+ Ke2 Kf7 h3 Ne6 Bc2 Nf4+ Bxf4 gxf4 Nf2 Qa2 Kd1 Ke6
24   -4.34   00:03  50006K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Ng4 Qh5 Nxg6+ Qxg6 Bc3 Qb6 Nf6 Qf2+ Ka3 Qf3 Kb2 Qg2+ Ka3 Qh3 Kb2 Qxh2+ Bc2 Qb8+ Ka1 Qa7+ Kb2 Qb6+ Ka2 Qa6+ Kb1 Qf1+ Kb2 g4 Ne4 Qf4
25   -2.66   00:09 122974K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 h4 Bh5 Bd6 Bf7 Be5 Be6 Bb8 Bc4 Be5 Bf1 Bb8 Be2 Bf4 Bb5 Be5 Ba4 Bf4 Bd7 Bd6 Bf5 Bg3
26   -2.66   00:09 123173K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 h4 Bh5 Bd6 Bf7 Be5 Be6 Bf4 Bc4 Be5 Bf1 Bb8 Be2 Bf4 Bd3 Be5 Bf5 Bg3 Bg6 Bb8 Be8 Be5 Bd7 Bb8 Bc8 Be5 Bh3
27   -4.64   00:10 136119K  Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Qh6 Nd3 Qa6 Kd2 Qa3 Nf5 Qxb3 Nxg7 Qd1+ Kc3 Bg6 Ne6+ Kg8 Nec5 Qe2 Kd4 Kh7 Kc3 Qe3 Bd4 Qf3 Kd2
28   -2.66   00:12 157525K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bd5 h4 Bb7 Bd2 Be4 Be1 Bd5 Bd2 Bc4 Bf4 Be2 Bd6 Bd3 Be5 Bf5 Bb8 Be4 Bd6 Bb7 Bg3 Bc8 Be5 Be6 Bc7 Bf7
29   -2.66   00:12 157760K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bd5 h4 Bb7 Bg3 Bc8 Be5 Be6 Bb8 Bf5 Bf4 Bd7 Bb8 Be6 Bf4 Bd5 Be5 Bc4 Bf4 Be2 Bb8 Ba6 Be5 Bb5 Bf4 Be8 Bb8 Bg6 Bf4 Bh5 Be5
30   -2.66   00:12 157861K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bd5 h4 Bb7 Bg3 Bc8 Be5 Be6 Bb8 Bf5 Bf4 Bd7 Bb8 Be6 Bf4 Bd5 Be5 Bc4 Bf4 Be2 Bb8 Ba6 Be5 Bb5 Bf4 Be8 Be5 Bg6 Bb8 Be4 Bd6 Bf3 Bf4 Bd1 Bc7
31   -2.66   00:12 166580K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bd5 h4 Bb7 Bg3 Bc8 Bb8 Bf5 Bd6 Bd3 Be5 Bc4 Bf4 Be2 Bd6 Bf1 Bb8 Bg2 Bd6 Bc6 Bg3 Be8 Bb8 Bg6 Bf4 Bh5 Be5
32   -2.66   00:12 167157K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bd5 h4 Bb7 Bg3 Bc8 Bb8 Bf5 Bd6 Bd3 Be5 Bg6 Bb8 Be4 Bd6 Bf3 Be5 Bg4 Bg3 Be6 Bc7 Bf7 Bd6 Be8 Bb8 Bg6 Be5 Bd3 Bd6 Bb5 Be5 Ba4 Bb8 Bb3 Bf4 Bd5
33   -2.66   00:12 167484K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bd5 h4 Bb7 Bg3 Ba6 Bf4 Bb5 Bb8 Bd7 Be5 Be6 Bb8 Bb3 Bf4 Bd5 Bb8 Be4 Bd6 Bf3 Be5 Bh5 Bb8 Bg6 Be5 Bd3 Bd6 Bf1 Bf4 Bh3 Bc7 Bg4 Bb8 h5 Bf4 Be6 Bd2 Bf7 Bf4
34   -2.66   00:13 169584K  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bd5 h4 Bb7 Bg3 Ba6 Bf4 Bb5 Bb8 Bd7 Bf4 Be8 Bc7 Bg6 Be5 Bd3 Bf4 Ba6 Bb8 Bb5 Bf4 Bd7 Be5 Bc8 Bb8 Bf5 Bd6 Be6 Bb8 Bb3
35   -4.26   00:24 325924K  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Bd1 Be8 Kc1 Qh6 Nf5 Qc6+ Kd2 Qd5+ Nd3 Bg6 Bxg7+ Kh7 Be2 Bxf5 Be5 Kg8 Bg3 Qd4 Bf2 Qd8 Bg3 Kh7 Be5 Kh6 Bg3 Qd4 Be5 Qb6 Bg3 Qb3 Ke3 Qc3 Be5 Qa3
36   -7.03   05:33   4429M  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Bd4 Be4 Be5 Bb1 Nd5 Qf5 Bd4 Qf3 Nd1 Qe2+ Ka3 Bc2 N1c3 Qxh2 Bc4 Kh7 Be2 Qd6+ Kb2 Ne6 Bb6 Bf5 Bb5 Qe5 Bd7 g4 Bg1 g3 Ne3 Qb8+ Ka2 Qa7+ Ba4 Nf4 Nxf5 Qxg1 Kb2 Nd3+ Kc2
37   -7.03   06:04   4849M  Kb2 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 hxg5 Bxb3 Bg6 Bd4 Be4 Be5 Bb1 Bg3 Qh6 Ng4 Qb6 Ne5 Ne6 Nc8 Qb5 Nd6 Qb4 Nc6 Qb6 Na5 Bd3 Be5+ Kh7 Ndc4 Bxc4 Nxc4 Qf2+ Kc3 Qf3+ Kb4 Qe2 Ba4 Qe1+ Bc3 Qb1+ Bb3 Qe4 Bb2 Kh6 Be5
38   -3.47   11:24   9212M  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bg2 h4 Bb7 Bd2 Bc8 Bc3 Bh3 Bd2 Bf5 Bb4 Bd7 Bd2 Bh3 Bf4 Bc8 Be5 Bf5 Bf4 Bg6 Bd2 Bd3 Bc3 Bc4 Bb4 Bf7 Bd6 Bg6 Bf4 Bh5 Bd2 Be2 Bf4 Bc4 Bd2 Bb3 Bc3 Bf7 Be5 Bh5 Bc3 Bf3
39   -3.47   11:25   9227M  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bg2 h4 Bb7 Bd2 Bc8 Bc3 Bh3 Bd2 Bf5 Bb4 Be6 Bd2 Bg8 Bf4 Bf7 Bd6 Bg6 Bf4 Be8 Be5 Ba4 Bf4 Bd7 Bd6 Bh3 Bb4 Bg2 Bd6 Be4 Bb8 Bb7 Bc7 Ba6 Bb8 Bc4 Bd6 Be2 Bb8 Bh5 Be5
40   -3.47   11:29   9285M  g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Ng7 Ne7 Bf3 Bf4 Bg2 h4 Bb7 Bd2 Bc8 Bc3 Bh3 Bd2 Bf5 Bb4 Be6 Bd2 Bg8 Bf4 Bf7 Bd6 Bg6 Bf4 Be8 Be5 Ba4 Bf4 Bd7 Bd6 Bh3 Bb4 Bg2 Bd6 Be4 Bb8 Bb7 Bc7 Ba6 Bf4 Be2 Bd2 Bh5 Bc3 Bf7 Bb4 Bc4 Bd2 Be2
Nodes: 9285469128
Nodes/second: 13464948
Best move: g6
Ponder move: Bxg6+
Notice the switch to Kb2 with a huge score. It turns out that Kb2 does not work, but it takes a pretty deep search to see that.
I think engines go off on a tangent chasing Kb2 and are getting false cutoffs because of it.
I think that the study is sound. I will post my results after some additional verification.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12542
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by Dann Corbit »

Even analyzing in reverse with 40 plies was not sufficient. However, setting the depth to 45 plies showed my tweaked SF the light. It's definitely a draw.

Code: Select all

7k/4N1nq/8/7p/b4B1P/8/2p2N2/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 80; bm Be8; ce 0; pm Be8; pv Be8 Bd2 Bd7 Bf4; 
7k/4N1nq/8/7p/b6P/8/2pB1N2/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Bf4; c3 "Bf4"; ce 0; pm Bf4; pv Bf4 Be8 Bd2 Bd7 Bf4; 
7k/3bN1nq/8/7p/7P/8/2pB1N2/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Nf5; c3 "Ba4"; ce 0; pm Nf5; pv Nf5 Bc3+ Ng7 Bd2; 
7k/3bN1nq/8/7p/7P/2B5/2p2N2/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Bd2; c3 "Bd2"; ce 0; pm Bd2; pv Bd2 Nf5 Bc3+ Ng7; 
7k/3bN2q/4n3/7p/7P/2B5/2p2N2/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 5; bm Qg7; c3 "Ng7"; ce 0; pm Qg7; pv Qg7 Bxg7+ Kxg7 Nf5+ Kf6 Ng3 Ba4 Nd3 Nd4 Nb4 Nb3+ Kxc2 Nd4+ Kd3 Nf3 Nxh5+ Kf5 Ke3 Nxh4; 
7k/3bN2q/4n3/7p/7P/8/2pB1N2/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 3; bm Bc3+; c3 "Bc3+"; ce 0; pm Bc3+; pv Bc3+ Qg7 Bxg7+ Kxg7 Kxc2 Nc7 Ne4 Kf7 Ng3 Bg4 Nc6 Ne6 Ne5+ Kf6 Nxg4+ hxg4; 
7k/3bN1nq/8/7p/5B1P/8/2p2N2/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Bd2; c3 "Bd2"; ce 0; pm Bd2; pv Bd2 Nf5 Bc3+ Ng7; 
7k/4N1nq/8/7p/5BbP/8/2p2N2/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 1; bm Nf5; c3 "Bd7"; ce 0; pm Nf5; pv Nf5 Be5+ Ng7 Bf4; 
7k/4N1nq/8/4B2p/6bP/8/2p2N2/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Bf4; c3 "Bf4"; ce 0; pm Bf4; pv Bf4 Nf5 Be5+ Ng7; 
4n2k/4N2q/8/4B2p/6bP/8/2p2N2/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Qg7; c3 "Ng7"; ce 0; pm Qg7; pv Qg7 Bxg7+ Kxg7 Nxg4 hxg4 Kxc2; 
4n2k/4N2q/8/7p/5BbP/8/2p2N2/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Be5+; c3 "Be5+"; ce 0; pm Be5+; pv Be5+ Qg7 Bxg7+ Kxg7 Nxg4 hxg4 Kxc2; 
7k/4N1nq/7p/4B3/6bP/8/2p2N2/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 74; bm Bf5; c3 "h5"; ce 10; pm Bf5; pv Bf5 Bc3 Be4 Bd2 Bh1 Bb4 Bf3 Bc3 Be2 Be5 Ba6 Bc3 Bf1 Be5 Bg2 Bc3 Bf3 Be5 Bb7 Bc3 Ba6 Bb4 Bd3 Bd2 Be4 Bc3 Bf5 Be5 Qg8 Nxg8 Kxg8 Bd4 Kh7 Kd2 Nh5 Bb2 Nf4 Nh1 Kg8 Ng3 Bg6 Kc3 Nd5+ Kd4 Nb6 h5 Bh7 Ne2 Na4 Bc1 Kg7 Ke3 Nb6 Kd2 Nd5 Bb2+ Kg8; 
7k/4N1nq/7p/4B3/6b1/8/2p2N1P/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 40; bm h4; c3 "h4"; ce -1; pm h4; pv h4 Bf5 Bc3 Bd7 Be5 Bb5 Bc3 Ba6 Bb4 Be2 Bc3 Bh5 Bb2 Be8 Bc3 Bf7 Be5 Bg8 Bc3 Bd5 Be5 Bb7 Bc3 Bh1 Bb4 Be4 Bd2 Bg2 Bc3 Bb7 Ba5 Bc8 Bd2 Bd7 Bc3 Bf5 Be5 Qg8 Nxg8 Kxg8 Bd4 Kh7 Kd2 Ne6 Be3 Nc7 Nh1 Nd5 Bd4 Nb4 Ng3 Bg4 Bc3 c1=Q+ Kxc1 Nd3+ Kc2 Nc5 Bd4; 
7k/4N1nq/7p/4B2b/8/8/2p2N1P/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 10; bm Bf3; c3 "Bg4"; ce 0; pm Bf3; pv Bf3 h4 Bg2 Bc3 Bh3 Be5; 
7k/6nq/7p/3NB2b/8/8/2p2N1P/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Ne7; c3 "Ne7"; ce 0; pm Ne7; pv Ne7 Bf3 h4 Bg2 Bc3 Bh3 Be5; 
7k/7q/4n2p/3NB2b/8/8/2p2N1P/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 7; bm Kg8; c3 "Ng7"; ce 0; pm Kg8; pv Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B5k/7q/4n2p/3Np2b/8/8/2p2N1P/2K5 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Bxe5+; c3 "Bxe5+"; ce 0; pm Bxe5+; pv Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B5k/7q/4n1bp/3Np2Q/8/8/2p2N1P/2K5 b - - acd 45; acs 6; bm Bxh5; c3 "Bxh5"; ce 0; pm Bxh5; pv Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B5k/7q/4n1bp/3Np2Q/8/8/2p2N1P/1K6 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Kc1; c3 "Kc1"; ce 0; pm Kc1; pv Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B5k/7q/4n1bp/3Np2Q/8/1p6/2B2N1P/1K6 b - - acd 45; acs 5; bm bxc2+; c3 "bxc2+"; ce 0; pm bxc2+; pv bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B5k/7q/4n1bp/3Np2Q/8/1p6/5N1P/1K1B4 w - - acd 45; acs 5; bm Bc2; c3 "Bc2"; ce 0; pm Bc2; pv Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/7q/4n1Pp/3Np2Q/8/1p6/5N1P/1K1B4 b - - acd 45; acs 3; bm Bxg6+; c3 "Bxg6+"; ce 0; pm Bxg6+; pv Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/7q/4n2p/3Np1PQ/8/1p6/5N1P/1K1B4 w - - acd 45; acs 10; bm g6; c3 "g6"; ce 0; pm g6; pv g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4q3/4n2p/3Np1PQ/8/1p6/5N1P/1K1B4 b - - acd 45; acs 1; bm Qh7+; c3 "Qh7+"; ce 0; pm Qh7+; pv Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4q3/4n2p/3Np1PQ/8/1p6/1K3N1P/1r1B4 w - - acd 45; acs 0; bm Kxb1; c3 "Kxb1"; ce 0; pm Kxb1; pv Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4q3/4n2p/3Np1PQ/8/1p6/1K3N1P/2rB4 b - - acd 45; acs 10; bm Rb1+; c3 "Rb1+"; ce 0; pm Rb1+; pv Rb1+ Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4q3/4n2p/3Np1PQ/4N3/1p6/1K3r1P/2rB4 w - - acd 45; acs 3; bm Nxf2; c3 "Nxf2"; ce 0; pm Nxf2; pv Nxf2 Rb1+ Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4qr2/4n2p/3Np1PQ/4N3/1p6/1K5P/2rB4 b - - acd 45; acs 35; bm Rf2+; c3 "Rf2+"; ce 0; pm Rf2+; pv Rf2+ Nxf2 Rb1+ Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4qr2/4n2p/3Np1PQ/4N3/1p6/7P/1KrB4 w - - acd 45; acs 4; bm Kb2; c3 "Kb2"; ce 0; pm Kb2; pv Kb2 Rf2+ Nxf2 Rb1+ Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4qr2/4n2p/3Np1PQ/2r1N3/1p6/7P/1K1B4 b - - acd 45; acs 37; bm Rc1+; c3 "Rc1+"; ce 0; pm Rc1+; pv Rc1+ Kb2 Rf2+ Nxf2 Rb1+ Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4qr2/4n2p/3Np1PQ/2r1N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 w - - acd 45; acs 15; bm Kb1; c3 "Kb1"; ce 0; pm Kb1; pv Kb1 Rc1+ Kb2 Rf2+ Nxf2 Rb1+ Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxh7 Bg6 Ng4 Bxh7 Nxh6+ Ke7 Ng8+ Kd8 Nf6 Bf5 h4 Nc5 Bf4 Ke7 Bg5 Kd6 h5 Ke5 h6 Nb3+ Kb2 c1=Q+ Bxc1 Nxc1; 
1B2b2k/4qr2/4n2p/3Np1PQ/1r2N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 b - - acd 45; acs 99; bm Rc4+; c3 "Rc4+"; ce 0; pm Rc4+; pv Rc4+ Kb1 Rc1+ Kb2 Rf2+ Nxf2 Rb1+ Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kg7 Nxh7+ Kxh7 Kxc2 Bf3 Nd3 Kg6 Nf4+ Nxf4 Bxf4; 
1B2b2k/2N1qr2/4n2p/4p1PQ/1r2N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 w - - acd 45; acs 13; bm Nd5; c3 "Nd5"; ce 0; pm Nd5; pv Nd5 Rc4+ Kb1 Rc1+ Kb2 Rf2+ Nxf2 Rb1+ Kxb1 Qh7+ g6 Bxg6+ Bc2 bxc2+ Kc1 Bxh5 Bxe5+ Kg8 Nf6+ Kg7 Nxh7+ Kxh7 Kxc2 Bf3 Nd3 Kg6 Nf4+ Nxf4 Bxf4;
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by peter »

Hi Jon!
Nordlandia wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:32 am [d]1B2b2k/2N1qr2/4n2p/4p1PQ/1r2N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 w - - 0 0

[pgn][Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "2018.10.12"] [Round "?"] [White "New game"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "1B2b2k/2N1qr2/4n2p/4p1PQ/1r2N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 w - - 0 0"] [PlyCount "19"] 1. Nd5 Rc4+ 2. Kb1 Rc1+ 3. Kb2 Rf2+ 4. Nxf2 Rb1+ 5. Kxb1 Qh7+ 6. g6 Bxg6+ 7. Bc2 bxc2+ 8. Kc1 Bxh5 9. Bxe5+ Ng7 10. Ne7 * [/pgn]

Houdini "understands" at least with 50moves-boundary lowered to 10 after Backward:

1B2b2k/2N1qr2/4n2p/4p1PQ/1r2N3/1p6/7P/2KB4 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Houdini 6.03 Pro x64-popc:

1.Nd5 Rc4+ 2.Kb1 Rc1+ 3.Kb2 Rf2+ 4.Nxf2 Rb1+ 5.Kxb1 Qh7+ 6.g6 Bxg6+ 7.Bc2 bxc2+ 8.Kc1 Bxh5 9.Bxe5+ Ng7 10.Ne7 Bf3 11.h4 h5 12.Bf4 Bb7 13.Bd2 Ba6 14.Bf4 Bf1 15.Bd2 Bg2 16.Bf4
= (0.00) Depth: 31/52 00:00:11 292MN
...
1.Nd5 Rc4+ 2.Kb1 Rc1+ 3.Kb2 Rf2+ 4.Nxf2 Rb1+ 5.Kxb1 Qh7+ 6.g6 Bxg6+ 7.Bc2 bxc2+ 8.Kc1 Bxh5 9.Bxe5+ Ng7 10.Ne7 Bf3 11.h4 h5 12.Bf4 Bb7 13.Bd2 Ba6 14.Bf4 Bf1 15.Bd2 Bg2 16.Bf4 Nf5 17.Be5+ Ng7 18.Bf4
= (0.00) Depth: 36/68 00:02:39 4220MN
Peter.
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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by peter »

Hi Dann!
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:35 pm It's definitely a draw.
If you change 50moves-boundary in SF- code to 10 it "sees" the draw even without Backward, but that's not a reliable method of course.
Peter.
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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Nice EG fortress

Post by peter »

peter wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:39 am If you change 50moves-boundary in SF- code to 10 it "sees" the draw even without Backward, but that's not a reliable method of course.
That was too loud- mouthed, 5 instead of 50 was, what I meant. (10 plies).
Yet H6.03 with 10 moves instead of 50 does get an eval near 0.0 started with empty hash, after long time pondering too.

Faster without tbs- usage, but in that way it thinks 2.Kb2(?) would work too for some time, so you see the lack of reliability.

With full Syzygys and 50moves set to 10, output- line gets correct sooner or later, eval constantly decreasing.
Peter.
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