deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

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WinPooh
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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by WinPooh » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:21 am

But realtime factor is always in favor of computer. I am almost sure that decent 2300-2400 chess engine can easily beat Carlsen in bullet. But it can't beat him at longer time control.

Nay Lin Tun
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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:27 am

WinPooh wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:21 am
But realtime factor is always in favor of computer. I am almost sure that decent 2300-2400 chess engine can easily beat Carlsen in bullet. But it can't beat him at longer time control.
They also restrict AI activity that is practically impossible for human. For example , human cant do two commands on two areas of screen simultaneously (battling in North pole of screen and doing economy in home base). They add about 15-20 ms lag/punishment for AI in changing point of view of screen/triggering area.

duncan
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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by duncan » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:13 am

Have not seen all of it. Are there any plans to improve it and beat the world champion?

Werewolf
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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by Werewolf » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:30 am

mar wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:27 pm
Werewolf wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:31 pm
Great presentation. Wonder why they trained on Protoss? Shorter matches?
They actually explain it in the demonstration video.

It must have been the bit when I went to the toilet then because I watched all of it. What was the reason?

henk2
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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by henk2 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:32 pm

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:18 am
WinPooh wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:37 am
Results in chess and go were much more impressive to me. Maybe because I always knew that computer can "click his mouse" faster than any human.
They restrict AI's action per minute for fair play with human. There is details discussion in reddit.
Afaik, human did 450 APM(action per minute) and AI did 250 APM in average. But people said only 50% of human APM would probably be effective action, cos usually human repeatedly click mouse or shift key several times without effective action or double or triple click for the same action.
The effective APM (EPM) of a human is at most 33% of their real APM.

Alphastar was also allowed to "store" actions in a way, as it micro'd a three way battle at 1500 apm.
They averaged it to 250 apm, but in short spikes Alphastar was allowed to use much more.

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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:38 pm

WinPooh wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:21 am
But realtime factor is always in favor of computer. I am almost sure that decent 2300-2400 chess engine can easily beat Carlsen in bullet. But it can't beat him at longer time control.
I am not sure that you are right.

It may be interesting to try stockfish that is slowed down by a significant factor so it is only 2300-2400 at tournament time control against humans to see what it the rating of it in bullet against humans.

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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by WinPooh » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:41 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:38 pm
WinPooh wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:21 am
But realtime factor is always in favor of computer. I am almost sure that decent 2300-2400 chess engine can easily beat Carlsen in bullet. But it can't beat him at longer time control.
I am not sure that you are right.

It may be interesting to try stockfish that is slowed down by a significant factor so it is only 2300-2400 at tournament time control against humans to see what it the rating of it in bullet against humans.
Or we can take Carlsen's or Nakamura's bullet games against human opponents and check them for blunders with Phalanx or Fritz 5.

Remember, Kasparov lost to Chess Genius in rapid (not bullet) in 1994, and almost lost blitz tournament to Fritz 3 next or previous year. Both programs were much weaker than 2700 in classical chess.

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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:24 pm

WinPooh wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:41 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:38 pm
WinPooh wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:21 am
But realtime factor is always in favor of computer. I am almost sure that decent 2300-2400 chess engine can easily beat Carlsen in bullet. But it can't beat him at longer time control.
I am not sure that you are right.

It may be interesting to try stockfish that is slowed down by a significant factor so it is only 2300-2400 at tournament time control against humans to see what it the rating of it in bullet against humans.
Or we can take Carlsen's or Nakamura's bullet games against human opponents and check them for blunders with Phalanx or Fritz 5.

Remember, Kasparov lost to Chess Genius in rapid (not bullet) in 1994, and almost lost blitz tournament to Fritz 3 next or previous year. Both programs were much weaker than 2700 in classical chess.
It is known that old software like Fritz5 or Genius3 were stronger at faster time control relative to humans.
I am not sure if it continue to be correct with new software that part of the advantage of it is being able to earn more from time (from the same rating point).

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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by Joost Buijs » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:34 pm


Daniel Shawul
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Re: deepmind's alphastar beats pros in starcraft ii

Post by Daniel Shawul » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:43 pm

Also there is no lookahead search (mcts) for the starcraft ai since the branching factor is much much higher than Go.
It just plays what it thinks is best strategy without opponent modeling.

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