Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

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Nay Lin Tun
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 am

Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:26 pm




At move 7. Stockfish played 7..... h5 assuming black is ok
The attachment cap4.png is no longer available


However within 4 moves later at move 11. ... f6,
she knows that she is dead!






On the reverse game, at move 4, SF played 4. Nf3?? It is really a questionable move because it develops piece immediately but it blocks further attack on centre or king side. Eventually the game ended as draw.


Conclusion! Book move as up to move 3, and just out of book move , SF played several sub-optimal moves in opening and died at move 11 which could have been saved if there is opening book up to move 12. This is an example of how SF is horrible in opening phase. A lot of Leela advantage come from opening phase and the result of testing will differ much on the depth of opening book.
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Nay Lin Tun
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Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:32 pm

cap4.png
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pic at move 11. f6

MikeGL
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Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by MikeGL » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:47 am

I think I have also seen h5 or its transpositions played by top GM's but current engines would punish this move with hairstrand accuracy.
Usually arises in sicilian dragons too. I feel like that h5 of SF10 was previously played too.
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.

Nay Lin Tun
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Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:38 pm

Capture (2).PNG
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I think it is not a good idea to do 0-0 without any initiate attack in queen side, better delay castling. ( Leela doesnt like those 4 moves from move 4 to 6).
After move 7... instead of h5, it would be better to start attacking back on white queen side as quick as possible.

Here is a game with my gtx 1060, approx 10 secs per move, how leela will respond as black in that position,

jp
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Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by jp » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:54 pm

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:26 pm
This is an example of how SF is horrible in opening phase. A lot of Leela advantage come from opening phase and the result of testing will differ much on the depth of opening book.
Yes, all the testing points to that. It's not satisfying at all to me.

Nay Lin Tun
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 am

Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:56 pm


jp
Posts: 1438
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Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by jp » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:11 pm

What does he mean by 'reverse analysis'?

supersharp77
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Location: Southwest USA

Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by supersharp77 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:44 pm

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:26 pm


At move 7. Stockfish played 7..... h5 assuming black is ok
cap4.png


However within 4 moves later at move 11. ... f6,
she knows that she is dead!


On the reverse game, at move 4, SF played 4. Nf3?? It is really a questionable move because it develops piece immediately but it blocks further attack on centre or king side. Eventually the game ended as draw.


Conclusion! Book move as up to move 3, and just out of book move , SF played several sub-optimal moves in opening and died at move 11 which could have been saved if there is opening book up to move 12. This is an example of how SF is horrible in opening phase. A lot of Leela advantage come from opening phase and the result of testing will differ much on the depth of opening book.
Game #1 was interesting (F3 attack line vs Pirc defense)...for one thing Stockfish does not play the Pirc without being forced to by the opening book...that line (f3 attack line) is not played too often and is quite complex similar to the Dragon variation. The pawn capture hxg4 is at best questionable and at worse..losing....LC0 excels at these sort of positions...hxg4 not found in my million games database at all (mostly GM games)...black wants to play on the queenside..not in front of his kingside.... :) :wink:

Pirc Games
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=048 ... 6791520061


ps. Game #2 Thats how Stockfish plays such positions...

MikeGL
Posts: 991
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by MikeGL » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:06 am

supersharp77 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:44 pm
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:26 pm


At move 7. Stockfish played 7..... h5 assuming black is ok
cap4.png


However within 4 moves later at move 11. ... f6,
she knows that she is dead!


On the reverse game, at move 4, SF played 4. Nf3?? It is really a questionable move because it develops piece immediately but it blocks further attack on centre or king side. Eventually the game ended as draw.


Conclusion! Book move as up to move 3, and just out of book move , SF played several sub-optimal moves in opening and died at move 11 which could have been saved if there is opening book up to move 12. This is an example of how SF is horrible in opening phase. A lot of Leela advantage come from opening phase and the result of testing will differ much on the depth of opening book.
Game #1 was interesting (F3 attack line vs Pirc defense)...for one thing Stockfish does not play the Pirc without being forced to by the opening book...that line (f3 attack line) is not played too often and is quite complex similar to the Dragon variation. The pawn capture hxg4 is at best questionable and at worse..losing....LC0 excels at these sort of positions...hxg4 not found in my million games database at all (mostly GM games)...black wants to play on the queenside..not in front of his kingside.... :) :wink:

Pirc Games
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=048 ... 6791520061


ps. Game #2 Thats how Stockfish plays such positions...
Million Base DB posted and updated by Rebel Programmer Ed Schroder includees the game.
I think it is correspondence game.



[Event "cr."]
[Site "cr."]
[Date "1993.01.01"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Slawinski"]
[Black "Machycek, L."]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 O-O 6.f3 c6 7.h4 h5 8.O-O-O b5
9.g4 hxg4 10.h5 Nxh5 11.Bh6 f6 12.fxg4 Bxg4 13.Be2 Qd7 14.Rh4 Be6 15.Bxh5
gxh5 16.Nf3 Bg4 17.Rg1 Rf7 18.Nh2 b4 19.Nxg4 bxc3 20.Qg2 Qb7 21.bxc3 Kf8
22.Rxh5 e6 23.Nxf6 Bxh6+ 24.Rxh6 Na6 25.Qg6 1-0

[d]rnbq1rk1/p3ppb1/2pp1np1/1p6/3PP1pP/2N1BP2/PPPQ4/2KR1BNR w - - 0 10
There are probably similar games, but you should search using position/ or transposition and not the exact moves.
Maybe many other games without the b5 push but similar position at K-side of the board.
I can also remember similar two games of GM Wesley So where he played with this assault g4! hxg4 h5!, but i think it was a dragon. Against GM Akobian and GM Li Chao. I mean, g4 hxg5 of black is not new.
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.

Nay Lin Tun
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 am

Re: Why you need opening book for Stockfish!

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:25 am

jp wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:11 pm
What does he mean by 'reverse analysis'?
It is Bryan's Invention. A kind of compairing backward, forward manual analysis. Only he can tell in detail.

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