Komodo 13 released

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Nordlandia
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by Nordlandia » Tue May 14, 2019 5:22 pm

Is contempt of 13 ideal for selfplay matches? I remember it should be approximately equivalent to default contempt of 10 in earlier Komodo versions.

Adjusting contempt to 13 from 16 give same effect as 10 in earlier versions right?

Assuming K13.01 vs K13.01. Also a value for K13.01 vs K12.3 is also nice to know for setup positons such as this one below:

K13.01 as white against previous K12.3 as black. What is the ideal contempt value for either side here?


h1a8
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by h1a8 » Tue May 14, 2019 7:08 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:28 pm
h1a8 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:42 am
lkaufman wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:32 am
h1a8 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:56 am
I have a question. If I purchase chessbase Komodo 12 (or latest chessbase version)
then can I get the newest version of the engine?

Basically I want the newest Komodo with the latest chessbase GUI.
Then just wait a few days until Komodo 13 goes on sale on the chessbase website. They haven't announced anything yet, but in the past they always release within a couple weeks of any new integer version of Komodo on our website.
Ok thanks. And if I get Komodo 13 then do I get a year of engine updates? Or just all updates from 13 and prior to version 14 ?
No, ChessBase only gives free updates for the first two months.
Ok I have fritz 15 program.
Im wondering will komodo 13 program (from chessbase) have the latest and same features as Fritz 15 (or 16) does.

If so then I'll just buy the komodo standalone engine and install it to fritz 15. But I'm big on new features.

Marcus9
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by Marcus9 » Tue May 14, 2019 9:46 pm

Is the komodo team working on an Android version of komodo 13? I would be interested in the Monte Carlo version. I find the smartphone an extremely comfortable object for analyzing games while I'm out

mjlef
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by mjlef » Wed May 15, 2019 2:21 am

Marcus9 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:46 pm
Is the komodo team working on an Android version of komodo 13? I would be interested in the Monte Carlo version. I find the smartphone an extremely comfortable object for analyzing games while I'm out
Yes, we still plan an Android release. MCTS is a bit of a challenge due to larger memory requirements for the MCTS search tree, and we are using a lot of mutexes in K 13.01. We recently found a way to get rid of most of the mutexes, and that gets us a step close to maybe getting MCTS to fit on smaller devices. We would probably not be able to support very long MCTS searches in devices with low memory. I can announce once we have something, but I do not know how long it might take.

lkaufman
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by lkaufman » Wed May 15, 2019 3:55 am

h1a8 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:08 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:28 pm
h1a8 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:42 am
lkaufman wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:32 am
h1a8 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:56 am
I have a question. If I purchase chessbase Komodo 12 (or latest chessbase version)
then can I get the newest version of the engine?

Basically I want the newest Komodo with the latest chessbase GUI.
Then just wait a few days until Komodo 13 goes on sale on the chessbase website. They haven't announced anything yet, but in the past they always release within a couple weeks of any new integer version of Komodo on our website.
Ok thanks. And if I get Komodo 13 then do I get a year of engine updates? Or just all updates from 13 and prior to version 14 ?
No, ChessBase only gives free updates for the first two months.
Ok I have fritz 15 program.
Im wondering will komodo 13 program (from chessbase) have the latest and same features as Fritz 15 (or 16) does.

If so then I'll just buy the komodo standalone engine and install it to fritz 15. But I'm big on new features.
ChessBase Komodo 13 should have at least all the features of the latest Fritz release. Whether they will add any new ones I don't know.
Komodo rules!

lkaufman
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by lkaufman » Wed May 15, 2019 4:03 am

Nordlandia wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:22 pm
Is contempt of 13 ideal for selfplay matches? I remember it should be approximately equivalent to default contempt of 10 in earlier Komodo versions.

Adjusting contempt to 13 from 16 give same effect as 10 in earlier versions right?

Assuming K13.01 vs K13.01. Also a value for K13.01 vs K12.3 is also nice to know for setup positons such as this one below:

K13.01 as white against previous K12.3 as black. What is the ideal contempt value for either side here?

In general there is no reason to use any value of Contempt other than zero for Komodo vs Komodo if they are the same or closely rated versions. For MCTS it doesn't even work, because Komodo MCTS already acts as if a normal Contempt level was set. For materially imbalanced positions, Komodo already "knows" that the side who is ahead should usually trade at least major pieces, so setting Contempt to seek or avoid trades should be unnecessary. Having said that, I suppose that with enough testing one could establish that some non-zero value is better than zero when one side is ahead by a given amount. I just don't think it would be far enough from zero to justify the testing time needed to determine it for various imbalances.
Komodo rules!

leavenfish
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by leavenfish » Fri May 17, 2019 6:06 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:08 pm
leavenfish wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:52 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:23 pm
konsolas wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:23 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 9:48 pm
~snip~

The scores reported by an MCTS engine like Komodo MCTS already reflect the possiblility of the opponent going wrong in plausible ways. Maybe it doesn't do it the same way you would, but at least to a significant degree it does what you want.
That's really interesting. If this is possible with MCTS, have you considered adding a mode to Komodo which adds more weight to the possibility of the opponent going wrong, which would allow people to find trappy lines in analysis?
If regular Komodo did that, it would just become a much weaker cousin of Komodo MCTS. That's the fundamental difference between standard ("Alpha-Beta") engines and MCTS engines; standard ones assume that the opponent will always play the move the engine considers best, whereas MCTS assumes that all reasonable moves have some chance of being chosen. Komodo MCTS (and Lc0 and spinoffs if you have suitable GPU) are the engines you should use.
There seems to be no real info on the Komodo website about vs 13.

Is there some info you can point me to about exactly how MCTS really works? I would like to see how, as you say, it 'already reflects the possibility of the opponent going wrong in plausible ways'. If it in some ways already does what I do manually for opening anaylsis, then it might be worth getting.

Otherwise, if you just look at certain tests that assign ratings for results, there has been little to no real improvement since K11.3.1 (perhaps even regression according to some) which I already have. The only thing 'new' being MCTS - which at least in 'play' is even weaker, but I am only interested in an analysis partner.
For analysis, there are two reasons you might want to use Komodo 13.01 MCTS. !. If you analyze in MultiPV Mode, Komodo MCTS is stronger than normal Komodo, because being forced to analyze multiple lines to get a score cripples all Alpha-Beta engines but is free for MCTS. 2. MCTS assumes that there is some probability that every legal move will be played at any point, with the probability depending on how good the move appears to be. So if other replies are inferior but not "obviously bad" that will make your candidate move look better. The more plausible ways there are to go wrong for the opponent, the better your move will look.
Thanks - is there anywhere noted the changes from 12 to 13? I presume the usual 'speed-ups' and eval tweaks, but I cannot even find that listed anywhere. I did find on the Komodo website: "Komodo 13 MCTS is much better than previous versions in its ability to utilize hardware with many cores. " but that would seem largely irrelevant to the average consumer with your average hardware.

lkaufman
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by lkaufman » Sat May 18, 2019 3:54 am

leavenfish wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:06 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:08 pm
leavenfish wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:52 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:23 pm
konsolas wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:23 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 9:48 pm
~snip~

The scores reported by an MCTS engine like Komodo MCTS already reflect the possiblility of the opponent going wrong in plausible ways. Maybe it doesn't do it the same way you would, but at least to a significant degree it does what you want.
That's really interesting. If this is possible with MCTS, have you considered adding a mode to Komodo which adds more weight to the possibility of the opponent going wrong, which would allow people to find trappy lines in analysis?
If regular Komodo did that, it would just become a much weaker cousin of Komodo MCTS. That's the fundamental difference between standard ("Alpha-Beta") engines and MCTS engines; standard ones assume that the opponent will always play the move the engine considers best, whereas MCTS assumes that all reasonable moves have some chance of being chosen. Komodo MCTS (and Lc0 and spinoffs if you have suitable GPU) are the engines you should use.
There seems to be no real info on the Komodo website about vs 13.

Is there some info you can point me to about exactly how MCTS really works? I would like to see how, as you say, it 'already reflects the possibility of the opponent going wrong in plausible ways'. If it in some ways already does what I do manually for opening anaylsis, then it might be worth getting.

Otherwise, if you just look at certain tests that assign ratings for results, there has been little to no real improvement since K11.3.1 (perhaps even regression according to some) which I already have. The only thing 'new' being MCTS - which at least in 'play' is even weaker, but I am only interested in an analysis partner.
For analysis, there are two reasons you might want to use Komodo 13.01 MCTS. !. If you analyze in MultiPV Mode, Komodo MCTS is stronger than normal Komodo, because being forced to analyze multiple lines to get a score cripples all Alpha-Beta engines but is free for MCTS. 2. MCTS assumes that there is some probability that every legal move will be played at any point, with the probability depending on how good the move appears to be. So if other replies are inferior but not "obviously bad" that will make your candidate move look better. The more plausible ways there are to go wrong for the opponent, the better your move will look.
Thanks - is there anywhere noted the changes from 12 to 13? I presume the usual 'speed-ups' and eval tweaks, but I cannot even find that listed anywhere. I did find on the Komodo website: "Komodo 13 MCTS is much better than previous versions in its ability to utilize hardware with many cores. " but that would seem largely irrelevant to the average consumer with your average hardware.
The changes from Komodo 12 to 13 in MCTS mode (which is where most of the changes were made) are so vast and pervasive that it is hopeless to even try to enumerate them. The elo gains are in the 300 to 400 range on any number of threads, so it's really a very different engine. Virtually every aspect was improved, some of the changes being rather radical. Most cannot be explained without describing in detail how Komodo MCTS works, which is pretty unique. As for regular Komodo, there were quite a few changes, but only a few that show up as measurable elo gains on one to four threads. To be honest, if you never use MultiPV or MCTS mode, don't have more than a few cores, and already own Komodo 12, I wouldn't recommend spending the money for Komodo 13 unless the cost is insignificant to you. But I think that most people do use MultiPV, and if so Komodo 13 MCTS is clearly better than Komodo 12 in either mode.
Komodo rules!

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AdminX
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by AdminX » Sat May 18, 2019 10:27 pm

Thank you Mark and Larry,

The progress you guys are making with the MCTS version is interesting to monitor.
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Nordlandia
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Re: Komodo 13 released

Post by Nordlandia » Mon May 20, 2019 8:46 am

Couple of days ago i made up this position. And i find it quite amazing that Komodo is capable of holding this position as white, whereas SF loses as white. Komodo know white got long term compensation, even black is pure exchange ahead. The defensive outpost on d4 and in addition of opposite-colored bishops make this position a headache for stockfish. There is no entrance path on the queenside for the rooks. According a friend of me (GM rated 2500) he suggested black's plan is to play on the kingside and said the position is probably lost for white.


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