TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

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jp
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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by jp » Thu May 30, 2019 4:44 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 4:26 pm
jp wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:28 pm
Ozymandias wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:12 pm
...
GM's have an opening repertoire and the related analysis. I don't see how their memories of such a thing could even come close to an updated book.
I assume this hypothetical match is a standard chess match without any forced openings, so it doesn't matter that superGM does not play every single opening. What matters is he has the deepest preparation in his own repertoire including all the novelties saved up that have not appeared OTB yet. I'd certainly take Carlsen's and Anand's secret WC prep over Cerebellum, etc.
Their preparation is aimed at OTB play, I don't expect that to do well at all against (for example) Cerebellum, mainly (but no just) because their repertoire is not as wide as the range of openings covered in a good engine book.
They don't need to play a wide range of openings. They just need to have a repertoire that responds to any opening their opponent chooses. Nothing forces them to go outside their repertoire.

But anyway, whether superGM opening book or Cerebellum opening book, Lc is going to struggle to win games against it + SF.

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Ozymandias
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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Ozymandias » Thu May 30, 2019 7:19 pm

jp wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 4:44 pm
They don't need to play a wide range of openings. They just need to have a repertoire that responds to any opening their opponent chooses. Nothing forces them to go outside their repertoire.
They'd be forced to play deep lines they avoid. For example, Carlsen is know for avoiding such lines, but look at his last game at the top, against Caruana; as soon as move 2, Fabiano steers clear of the Najdorf, just in case. This kind of mindset precludes them from being successful in such an endeavour.

jp
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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by jp » Fri May 31, 2019 3:48 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:19 pm
They'd be forced to play deep lines they avoid. For example, Carlsen is know for avoiding such lines, but look at his last game at the top, against Caruana; as soon as move 2, Fabiano steers clear of the Najdorf, just in case. This kind of mindset precludes them from being successful in such an endeavour.
They would not be playing against another human! The'd be playing (the opening) against Lc. To be fair, you might need to prevent them preparing specifically for Lc. Lc isn't doing prep against them to "steer clear" of their openings. Lc would just be playing the openings it always does.

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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Ozymandias » Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 am

jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:48 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:19 pm
They'd be forced to play deep lines they avoid. For example, Carlsen is know for avoiding such lines, but look at his last game at the top, against Caruana; as soon as move 2, Fabiano steers clear of the Najdorf, just in case. This kind of mindset precludes them from being successful in such an endeavour.
They would not be playing against another human! The'd be playing (the opening) against Lc. To be fair, you might need to prevent them preparing specifically for Lc. Lc isn't doing prep against them to "steer clear" of their openings. Lc would just be playing the openings it always does.
If you believe that they would know how to play what they don't, i guess you r mind is already set.

jp
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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by jp » Fri May 31, 2019 4:40 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 am
If you believe that they would know how to play what they don't, i guess you r mind is already set.
I don't know what you're talking about. No one said they would "know how to play what they don't". I said they don't have to play what they don't know. Surely you're not claiming those are the same thing?

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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Ozymandias » Fri May 31, 2019 4:43 am

jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:40 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 am
If you believe that they would know how to play what they don't, i guess you r mind is already set.
I don't know what you're talking about. No one said they would "know how to play what they don't". I said they don't have to play what they don't know. Surely you're not claiming those are the same thing?
Of course not.

jp
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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by jp » Fri May 31, 2019 5:46 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:43 am
Of course not.
Good, so please don't say things like
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 am
If you believe that they would know how to play what they don't, i guess you r mind is already set.

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Ozymandias
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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Ozymandias » Fri May 31, 2019 6:36 am

jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 5:46 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:43 am
Of course not.
Good, so please don't say things like
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 am
If you believe that they would know how to play what they don't, i guess you r mind is already set.
If that's not what you said, what is it?

jp
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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by jp » Fri May 31, 2019 8:17 am

Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 6:36 am
jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 5:46 am
please don't say things like
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 am
If you believe that they would know how to play what they don't, i guess you r mind is already set.
If that's not what you said, what is it?
What is it I said? This.
jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:40 am
I said they don't have to play what they don't know.
And
jp wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 4:44 pm
They don't need to play a wide range of openings. They just need to have a repertoire that responds to any opening their opponent chooses. Nothing forces them to go outside their repertoire.

But anyway, whether superGM opening book or Cerebellum opening book, Lc is going to struggle to win games against it + SF.

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Ozymandias
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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Ozymandias » Fri May 31, 2019 9:16 am

jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:17 am
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 6:36 am
jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 5:46 am
please don't say things like
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 am
If you believe that they would know how to play what they don't, i guess you r mind is already set.
If that's not what you said, what is it?
What is it I said? This.
jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:40 am
I said they don't have to play what they don't know.
And
jp wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 4:44 pm
They don't need to play a wide range of openings. They just need to have a repertoire that responds to any opening their opponent chooses. Nothing forces them to go outside their repertoire.

But anyway, whether superGM opening book or Cerebellum opening book, Lc is going to struggle to win games against it + SF.
And how long do you expect them to play correctly into, say, the Najdorf if they don't play it on a regular basis? Knowing and practicing need to go hand in had to be effective.

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