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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:39 pm
by jp
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:16 am
And how long do you expect them to play correctly into, say, the Najdorf if they don't play it on a regular basis? Knowing and practicing need to go hand in had to be effective.
I don't know what your objection is or what topic you're wanting to discuss.

The start of this discussion was about superGM+SF vs Lc. If the superGM wants to play the Najdorf in this hypothetical match, he will prepare it before, just like in a real match. if he doesn't prepare it or hasn't played it regularly in his career, he won't play it in the match. He's not forced to play it, though of course he has to play something of his choice but dependent also on his opponent's moves.

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:53 pm
by Ozymandias
jp wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 2:39 pm
I don't know what your objection is or what topic you're wanting to discuss.
I object to the statement that a GM in centaur play (no matter his level) would do better with his own preparation than with an engine book... against an engine opponent. I also object to the notion that he would do better than a specialist in the field (an experienced centaur player). This is backed by past experience were GMs (all the way up to Nakamura), have failed when they tried to enter the freestyle arena.

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:22 am
by jp
Ozymandias wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:53 pm
I object to the statement that a GM in centaur play (no matter his level) would do better with his own preparation than with an engine book... against an engine opponent. I also object to the notion that he would do better than a specialist in the field (an experienced centaur player). This is backed by past experience were GMs (all the way up to Nakamura), have failed when they tried to enter the freestyle arena.
I don't claim the best centaur is superGM + machine. I don't know if others in this thread did. (Maybe they implied it.) I think the superGM risks interfering with the engine at the wrong points and not fully benefiting from it.

What I did claim was that a simple way to stop superGM and SF just messing each other up if they were teamed was to make superGM play the opening before passing control at some stage to SF. As long as superGM's repertoire isn't openings SF is bad at, I'd take that over Cerebellum, and it's clearly a better setup than just bookless SF.

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:24 pm
by Ovyron
jp wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:28 pm
I'd certainly take Carlsen's and Anand's secret WC prep over Cerebellum, etc.
Cerebellum, and any other public book for that matter, are a poor choice for competitive play.

The strongest chess engine books are private, and are only shown when the person that has them has an incentive to win at all costs. Say, Infinity Chess's monthly Engine Masters Tournament, that has money on the line, so everyone there wants to win and uses their strongest private book.

These private books have been fine tuned to beat all the holes of the best public books, and the holes of people that have played on the server (interestingly, most holes are in white openings, so most wins are by the black side!)

You will not see any GM or the like playing there, it'd be trivial for a GM to turn their repertoire into book format and let the engine take over as you said, and beat everyone.

These private books are stronger than any GM preparation, and they show the state of the art of chess lines of the present, where you won't see any fear of draw death, and the strongest Leelas and Stockfish derivatives playing it out in the fastest hardware people can buy, with the strongest private books.

So, to me, this is the true Computer Chess Championship, as the operator is playing with the strongest thing out there, and if you don't see someone represented propely (huh... No Komodo?) it's because everyone knows their chance of winning would have been less with it.

This is the strongest chess played (...for a 12 minutes plus 2 second increment; I know advanced corr chess is being played in a much stronger level, but with years to finish a single game that's irrelevant.)

And what is the answer?

Well, Leela won.

Murx piled up 3 fast graphic cards and beat everyone else. However, it's not clear if someone else could have won with Murx's book, so the question of the book prevailing over all remains (say, Stockfish would have been champ with a better book.)

Otherwise, the END of an ERA happened there, last Sunday (as it was the first time someone using Leela won.) We will see if the person with the strongest book next time uses Stockfish (derivative) and wins.

And anybody disagreeing with me is free to join, win the thing, and some bucks in the process. I mean, and anybody disagreeing with me is free to join, and get their ass kicked by someone holding the current strongest chess entity for that time control :mrgreen:

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:08 am
by Ozymandias
Ovyron wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:24 pm
Murx piled up 3 fast graphic cards and beat everyone else.
He's always had amongst the nicest HW over there, were those 2080 or 2080Ti cards?

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:55 am
by Ovyron
Ozymandias wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:08 am
He's always had amongst the nicest HW over there, were those 2080 or 2080Ti cards?
No idea :mrgreen:

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:42 pm
by Paloma

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:15 pm
by Ozymandias
Paloma wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:42 pm
He has two RTX 2060
http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtop ... 86#p796986
Thnx for the link, it's actually 3, which is still pretty cost effective:
Hugo wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:45 am
last sunday I could win the Engine Masters Tournament on Infinitychess in front of 36 players with a tripple GPU nn 42232 / 91.000 nps.