TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Leo
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:55 pm
Location: USA/Minnesota
Full name: Leo

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Leo » Fri May 17, 2019 2:06 am

If SF loses can I use the excuse that it only was a 100 game match and that if it was thousands of games SF might have won?
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

jp
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by jp » Fri May 17, 2019 2:41 am

Leo wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:06 am
If SF loses can I use the excuse that it only was a 100 game match and that if it was thousands of games SF might have won?
If the margin is 4, yes. If the margin is 25, not really.

But opening choices and hardware are the bigger issues that will never be agreed on.

Leo
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:55 pm
Location: USA/Minnesota
Full name: Leo

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Leo » Fri May 17, 2019 2:53 am

I really want to see a match with SF allowed to use Brianfish.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

MikeB
Posts: 3288
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by MikeB » Fri May 17, 2019 4:46 am

jp wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:41 am
Leo wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:06 am
If SF loses can I use the excuse that it only was a 100 game match and that if it was thousands of games SF might have won?
If the margin is 4, yes. If the margin is 25, not really.

But opening choices and hardware are the bigger issues that will never be agreed on.
If the margin is only 9 games, for most people that would be pretty convincing.
But if you run enough long matches ( say 50 100 game matches a day ) , you will get a false positive on average once a day.

Say the current trend continues and the final score looks like this.

Code: Select all

Rank Name                        Rating   Δ     +    -     #     Σ    Σ%     W    L    D   W%    =%   OppR 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   1 LCZero v0.21.1-nT40.T8.610   3115   0.0   28   28   100   54.5  54.5   15    6   79  15.0  79.0  3085 
   2 Stockfish 19050918           3085  30.6   28   28   100   45.5  45.5    6   15   79   6.0  79.0  3115 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Δ = delta from the next higher rated opponent
  # = number of games played
  Σ = total score, 1 point for win, 1/2 point for draw

ResultSet-EloRating>los
                            LC St
LCZero v0.21.1-nT40.T8.610     98
Stockfish 19050918           1   
ResultSet-EloRating>
The difficult part is that how does one say the hardware is equal - and one cannot. Essentially ,we're comparing two different breeds of cats and they both have a lot of plusses for what they can do. The good news is that regardless of how one feels. it brings people back into computer chess and to me, that's a good thing.

glennsamuel32
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: 223

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by glennsamuel32 » Fri May 17, 2019 5:45 am

MikeB wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:46 am
The difficult part is that how does one say the hardware is equal - and one cannot. Essentially ,we're comparing two different breeds of cats and they both have a lot of plusses for what they can do.
Thanks, that's an excellent explanation...
But people have found ways to do it, using formulas based on node ratios, cost comparisons, energy consumption and what not.
Next may come the comparison of mass :D

glennsamuel32
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: 223

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by glennsamuel32 » Fri May 17, 2019 6:05 am

Here's another comparison...

Leela used 32.2 billion transistors while SF used 14.4 billion :D :D

giovanni
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:30 am

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by giovanni » Fri May 17, 2019 11:16 am

glennsamuel32 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:45 am
MikeB wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:46 am
The difficult part is that how does one say the hardware is equal - and one cannot. Essentially ,we're comparing two different breeds of cats and they both have a lot of plusses for what they can do.
Thanks, that's an excellent explanation...
But people have found ways to do it, using formulas based on node ratios, cost comparisons, energy consumption and what not.
Next may come the comparison of mass :D
I understand that it is quite naive, but couldn't we simply compare how much they cost?

Werewolf
Posts: 1187
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Werewolf » Fri May 17, 2019 11:43 am

giovanni wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:16 am
glennsamuel32 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:45 am
MikeB wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:46 am
The difficult part is that how does one say the hardware is equal - and one cannot. Essentially ,we're comparing two different breeds of cats and they both have a lot of plusses for what they can do.
Thanks, that's an excellent explanation...
But people have found ways to do it, using formulas based on node ratios, cost comparisons, energy consumption and what not.
Next may come the comparison of mass :D
I understand that it is quite naive, but couldn't we simply compare how much they cost?
There are lots of comparisons:
- cost
- power consumption (i.e. limit both to 1 KW or something)
- or just what you can build

Personally I favour the latter. If it can be built, build it.

Leo
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:55 pm
Location: USA/Minnesota
Full name: Leo

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by Leo » Fri May 17, 2019 3:07 pm

I will use AB engines for a long time. I cant afford and don't understand how to get LZ working on a computer. SF with a great book is very close if not better than LZ anyway.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

leavenfish
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:23 am

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Post by leavenfish » Fri May 17, 2019 6:20 pm

Leo wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:07 pm
I will use AB engines for a long time. I cant afford and don't understand how to get LZ working on a computer. SF with a great book is very close if not better than LZ anyway.
True, unless one gets their jollies off of thinking 'they' are doing something in actual play (why I abandoned 'correspondence' chess) when it is really their engines, it does not matter - fast is fast and good is good enough. It is said that those people are 'cheating themselves'...I won't weigh in on that - but I will say that chess is a fascinating game in itself, which I enjoy using my own brain in combat vs an opponent; but I do like trying to prepare opening lines to give better arm myself for that combat.

Post Reply