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Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:36 am
by whereagles
the "end of an era" is giving a friend of mine who teaches AB at the university a headache... I suppose he's considering getting a GPU :D

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 8:06 am
by JohnWoe
Gary Internet wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:24 am
The real end of an era is happening in engines that are TCEC Divisions 1 to 3. There don't appear to be any up and coming AB engines with the exception of Rofchade. The only AB engines to ever be stronger than Fire 7.1 are Stockfish, Houdini and Komodo. Ethereal was getting close and has now ceased development. Everything else close to Ethereal's level of strength appears to have ceased development as well.

Most of the TCEC league is now stagnant because AB engine development is waning.

Based on where the engines will start season 16, this is what the situation looks like:

Division 1
1. Fire (hopefully Fire 8 will be released later this year)
2. Ethereal (Nothing since 30 March 2019)
3. Xiphos (Nothing since 30 March 2019)
4. Laser (Nothing since 24 March 2019)
5. Andscacs (0.95 released 17 December 2018)
6. Fizbo (Nothing since 21 December 2017)

Division 2
1. Jonny (Version 8.1 used in TCEC for 6 consecutive seasons)
2. Chiron (Version 4 released on 10 January 2017. No version 5 yet).
3. Ginkgo (TCEC performance is worse over time. Not sure if it's still being developed)
4. ChessBrainVB (Nothing since 15 March 2019. Version 3.72 used in TCEC for 2 consecutive seasons)
5. Booot (Nothing since 8 July 2018)
6. Rofchade (All good for now).

Division 3
1. Fritz (Version 16 used in TCEC for 5 consecutive seasons)
2. Nirvana (Nothing since 11 August 2017)
3. Arasan (All good for now)
4. Texel (Seems stuck on version 1.08a13)
5. Vajolet2 (recently upgraded from 2.6 to 2.7)
6. Gull (dead since 2014)

The number of AB engines that are going to break out of Division 4 and get to Division 2 (meaning they place 1st or 2nd in Division 3) is zero. Neural Network engines on the other hand, using Lc0's progress, have no problem climbing to the Premier Division and staying there.

AllieStein began TCEC Season 15 (it's first season in TCEC) in Division 4, but ended up finishing 4th in the Premier Division ahead of Houdini 6.03.

If you dropped Antifish or Leelenstein into Division 4, they'd stroll into the Premier Division as well. It's seems that anything that is created using at least some part of Lc0, is automatically stronger than Fire 7.1 at the very least. For AB engine programmers, even ending the life of the engine at the same strength as Fire 7.1 is highly unlikely.

The barrier that no AB engine can get through is Fire level. Rofchade is the new kid on the block. Let's see how far it gets. Otherwise, TCEC is very stagnant unless NN engines (Lc0 clones) are your cup of tea.
I agree with most parts. But some engine developers don't try to reach Stockfish level. It is almost impossible without copying. Just seeing your engine to play a good game and win is enough satisfaction. These NN engines are very impressive as chess is a perfect playground for these old AB-bean counters.

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:15 am
by jp
whereagles wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:36 am
the "end of an era" is giving a friend of mine who teaches AB at the university a headache...
Really?! What is the name of the course? That would not be a "normal" CS topic.

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:32 pm
by whereagles
I think he teaches it in some heuristics course. Masters level I believe

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 4:59 pm
by Ovyron
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:02 am
Image
Did Ali go and draw that boxing girl as Leela? I'm awestruck!

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 1:48 am
by Nay Lin Tun
Ovyron wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:59 pm
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:02 am
Image
Did Ali go and draw that boxing girl as Leela? I'm awestruck!
Most likely cut, paste, add effects with photoshop, similar to other photos in his Art work.

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:08 am
by Nay Lin Tun
Stockfish didnt know the endgame was losing and then suddently wake up with +7 eval in one move after 121. Rxd3!!

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 4:22 am
by Nay Lin Tun
Ovyron wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:59 pm
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:02 am
Image
Did Ali go and draw that boxing girl as Leela? I'm awestruck!
There are a lots of his art work in here!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/181644265@N06/

A few of them he added recently,

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 4:25 am
by Nay Lin Tun
47932706946_b2d675dcef_z.jpg
47932706946_b2d675dcef_z.jpg (122.37 KiB) Viewed 1818 times

Re: TCEC S15, END of an ERA event is much more Brutal than I thought!

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:24 am
by Laskos
Laskos wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:03 pm
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:04 am
After 26 games in TCEC SUFI, Leela is leading with 15-11.

My prediction for TCEC was just 55-45 Leela win.
cap4.PNG
Yes, I expected long ago 2:1 Win/Loss ratio for Leela in S15 SuFi, something on the lines +14 -7 =79. Let's see. I predicted that when the previous S14 was underway with 32930 net.
LOL
After 99/100 games in TCEC S15 SuFi the score is indeed +14 -7 =78. Sometimes I have an inhuman ability to predict the outcome months in advance :lol:.

It IS an end of an era, if anything, the hardware for Leela is below the hardware for Stockfish in the current TCEC. GPU has much more room for improvement than CPU, we will assist in 1-2 years at a complete dominance strength-wise of NN-bases engines. FPGA might come next for chess engines, but it's a bit more involved to make them play chess.