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Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:57 pm
by adams161
Ras wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:33 pm
Just as with GNU Go, any spoilsport, not just the authors, can contact Apple and get stockfish yanked from the App Store.
That's wrong. Technically, Apple is violating the copyright, but only the copyright holders have the right to take measures against that, not anyone else. Since the Stockfish authors don't want to do that, that boils down to implicit dual licencing.
Yea it made no sense to me that any spoil sport could ask for copy right enforcement to something they have no rights to. For example I have a GPL app but if someone reposted the app in ways but didn't make it GPL then how in the world would anyone be knowledgeable if maybe i re-liscenced it to them on other terms ( which i can do ). So it would make no sense for third parties to try to enforce my copyright.

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:25 am
by Ras
I forgot another hurdle for iOS, and that's more serious. The usual partitioning of GUI and UCI/CECP engine is not possible under iOS, that has to be baked into one package. That's because installation is only possible from Apple's app store, and Apple doesn't allow programs that start other programs, which is exactly what a chess GUI usually does. So you can't have it like with Droidfish or Chess for Android that can start arbitrary UCI engines.

Not to mention that the developer account in the app store, which you need for publishing software, costs 99 EUR per year, and that you need to get the software through Apple's review process, which usually takes some iterations. And that Apple doesn't want cloned applications, so it's not clear whether they would even allow Stockfish's GUI with LC0 instead of Stockfish baked into the app.

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 9:26 am
by adams161
Ras wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:25 am
The usual partitioning of GUI and UCI/CECP engine is not possible under iOS, that has to be baked into one package. That's because installation is only possible from Apple's app store, and Apple doesn't allow programs that start other programs, which is exactly what a chess GUI usually does. So you can't have it like with Droidfish or Chess for Android that can start arbitrary UCI engines.
That was my argument that you cant easily try to even comply with GPL and bundle stockfish unless you make your app open source since its all one code base. But i'm told that Stockfish team is currently ignoring this.
Ras wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:25 am
Not to mention that the developer account in the app store, which you need for publishing software, costs 99 EUR per year
99 dollars or euros a year is not the biggest hurdle to stop a determined app developer who either wants a popular free app or to make money in some way.
Ras wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:25 am
and that you need to get the software through Apple's review process, which usually takes some iterations.
I got three chess apps through review on the first pass. And all updates accepted. Worst i had to deal with was a question on where to find something i listed as new once. If a developer writes a half way decent app it can get through review. The standards are not the same at every level of app. When you get real big they have more rules. When someone is starting out and small and even at 50,000 installs but not millions it's not as stringent if basically follows rules. Not like they are measuring every button to be 42 pixels height.
Ras wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:25 am
And that Apple doesn't want cloned applications, so it's not clear whether they would even allow Stockfish's GUI with LC0 instead of Stockfish baked into the app.
There's hundreds of chess apps were someone wrote a GUI. the meat is the engine. A lot of good chess authors can write a GUI. And a new GUI is not a clone.

I think it could be done if someone wanted to make the app open source even though that is not fully compliant with GPL. While users could not modify their app they could take the code and make their own version assuming its not an identical clone. Actually iv'e heard if you have the project you can build to a device in XCode(free Mac developer environment) on a mac with the later XCode environments without being in developer program or submitting the person's work for any review. They have to compile on same Apple ID in Xcode as the device and do direct install via a cable. here is a source for that https://blog.ionicframework.com/deployi ... r-account/ I know one person who did it.

The trick on iOS is as you mentioned the engine and your app and GuI are all one bundle. No private source UI and open source engine to be opened. Developers cant strictly comply with GPL but might face less resistance if they stick to Open Source.

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 4:45 pm
by purechess
royb wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:09 pm
Is anyone working on porting LC0 (if that's the right term) to the iPad? My iPad is my main chess playing/analysis platform these days.
You are using websites on iPad for playing and analysis I guess.

Or you are using apps? Which one ?

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:02 pm
by dkappe
adams161 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:57 pm
Ras wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:33 pm
Just as with GNU Go, any spoilsport, not just the authors, can contact Apple and get stockfish yanked from the App Store.
That's wrong. Technically, Apple is violating the copyright, but only the copyright holders have the right to take measures against that, not anyone else. Since the Stockfish authors don't want to do that, that boils down to implicit dual licencing.
Yea it made no sense to me that any spoil sport could ask for copy right enforcement to something they have no rights to. For example I have a GPL app but if someone reposted the app in ways but didn't make it GPL then how in the world would anyone be knowledgeable if maybe i re-liscenced it to them on other terms ( which i can do ). So it would make no sense for third parties to try to enforce my copyright.
It’s not copyright but a license. It gives the user rights such as making the distributor (Apple) provide the source. I’m pretty sure Apple would yank the app if someone made that request.

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:29 pm
by ernest
I don't understand this thread...

What's the use of porting Lc0 if you don't have a GPU ???

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:32 pm
by mwyoung
ernest wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:29 pm
I don't understand this thread...

What's the use of porting Lc0 if you don't have a GPU ???
I agree, unless you have a powerful GPU. Lc0 is almost useless.

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:13 pm
by dkappe
mwyoung wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:32 pm
ernest wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:29 pm
I don't understand this thread...

What's the use of porting Lc0 if you don't have a GPU ???
I agree, unless you have a powerful GPU. Lc0 is almost useless.
First, you can run one of the smaller nets using blas.

Second, Apple has nn capable hardware in its phones/iPads. https://www.apple.com/in/iphone-xs/a12-bionic/

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:55 am
by royb
purechess wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:45 pm
royb wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:09 pm
Is anyone working on porting LC0 (if that's the right term) to the iPad? My iPad is my main chess playing/analysis platform these days.
You are using websites on iPad for playing and analysis I guess.

Or you are using apps? Which one ?
I am running apps on the iPad. Apps like "Analyze This" (which uses Stockfish 10), SmallFish (Stockfish also), "Hiarcs Chess", and "Chess Pro" (I believe that's the Tiger engine in there somewhere, but I am not 100% sure of that).

The CPU in the iPad Pro is faster than my MacBook Pro and the touch screen makes it ideal for setting up positions for analysis or just analysis of PGN files and stepping forward/backward through the game moves while the engine analyzes.

Re: LC0 for iPad?

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 4:36 pm
by purechess
royb wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:55 am

I am running apps on the iPad. Apps like "Analyze This" (which uses Stockfish 10), SmallFish (Stockfish also), "Hiarcs Chess", and "Chess Pro" (I believe that's the Tiger engine in there somewhere, but I am not 100% sure of that).

The CPU in the iPad Pro is faster than my MacBook Pro and the touch screen makes it ideal for setting up positions for analysis or just analysis of PGN files and stepping forward/backward through the game moves while the engine analyzes.

I also use on iPad . "Chess Studio" and tChess Pro.

(Hiarcs Chess is ok but the current version doesn't support newer iPad screen resolutions and on iPhon not even newer iPhone resolutions. The Hiarcs code is based on the free Stockfish iOS app which is on Github. So very outdated)