First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

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Dann Corbit
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First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue May 21, 2019 9:15 pm

Code: Select all

Searching: rn2q2r/ppk3pp/3b4/2p5/2N1pPB1/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1B1K2R b KQ - 0 1
infinite: 0 time: 0 increment: 0 moves to go: 0

 1   +1.87   00:00   3671K  Qc6 
 2   +1.71   00:00   3818K  h5 Nd5+ Kc6 
 3   +1.69   00:00   4326K  h5 Bf5 Rf8 
 4   +2.03   00:00   4518K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 
 5   +1.72   00:00   4705K  b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 a4 b4 Nb5+ Kc6 
 6   +1.85   00:00   5098K  h5 Bf5 Rf8 Nxd6 Kxd6 
 7   +1.70   00:00   5331K  b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 Bf3 Nc6 
 8   +1.70   00:00   5501K  b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 Bf3 Nc6 
 9   +1.60   00:00   5649K  b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 Bf3 Nc6 Be4 
10   +1.61   00:00   5916K  Be7 Nd5+ Kc6 Nc3 Nd7 Nxe4 Kc7 O-O Nf6 Bf3 Nxe4 Bxe4 
11   +1.57   00:00   6197K  Be7 Bf5 Nc6 O-O Nb4 Bxe4 Bf6 d3 Nxc2 Nd5+ Kb8 Rb1 Bd4+ Kh1 
12   +1.70   00:00   6467K  Be7 Bf5 Nc6 Bxe4 Nb4 Ne3 Bf6 d3 Rd8 O-O Bd4 Rf2 
13   +1.64   00:00   6712K  Be7 Bf5 Na6 Bxe4 Nb4 Ne3 Rd8 O-O Bf6 d3 Bd4 Rf2 Kb8 a3 Nc6 
14   +1.57   00:00   7341K  b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Na6 Re1 Qd8 Re6+ Kc7 Nxb5+ Kb8 Be3 Nb4 Bxc5 Qh4+ Kf3 Nd5 cxd3 Qxh2 Bd6+ Kb7 Nc3 
15   +1.74   00:00   8196K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 Nxd6 Kxd6 Re1 Qg6 Nxe4+ Kc7 d3 Nd5 Nc3 Nxc3 bxc3 Rae8 
16   +1.75   00:01   8776K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 c3 bxc3 bxc3 Qe7 Rb1 
17   +1.98   00:01  10131K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 Nxd6 Kxd6 Re1 Qg6 Rxe4 Nd5 d3 Nxc3 bxc3 Rae8 Bf3 Rxe4 dxe4 Qf7 Be3 b6 a4 Kc7 f5 
18   +2.00   00:01  11389K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 Nxd6 Kxd6 Re1 Qg6 Rxe4 Nd5 d3 Nxc3 bxc3 Rae8 Bf3 Qf7 Be3 b6 c4 Qf6 Rb1 Rxe4 dxe4 Kc7 
19   +1.95   00:01  13236K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 g3 Qe6 Rxf4 Rxf4 Ne3 Rff8 axb4 cxb4 Bg4 Qe5 Ncd5+ Kb8 Nf4 Rf6 Nfd5 Rd6 Ra5 a6 c3 bxc3 bxc3 
20   +1.41   00:02  26567K  b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 h3 h5 Bf3 Nc6 Rd1 Kc7 Rxd3 Rad8 Be4 Qe6 Nxb5+ Kb8 Rxd8+ Rxd8 Nc3 Nd4 Be3 Qf6 Rd1 
21   +1.81   00:03  37319K  b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 Bf3 Nc6 cxd3 Rae8 Be3 Nb4 Be4 Nxd3+ Bxd3 Qxd3 Rhd1 Rxe3 Nxb5+ Kc6 Rxd3 Rxd3 Nxa7+ Kb6 
22   +1.85   00:07  69563K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 Nxd6 Kxd6 a3 Nd5 Nxd5 Kxd5 d3 exd3 cxd3 Qb5 b4 cxb4 axb4 Qb6+ Kh1 Qd4 Bf3+ Kd6 Ra5 b6 Rd5+ Qxd5 
23   +1.77   00:08  78046K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 Nxd6 Kxd6 a3 Nd5 Nxd5 Kxd5 d3 exd3 cxd3 Qb5 b4 Rfe8 Bb2 cxb4 axb4 a5 Bb3+ Kd6 Be5+ Rxe5 fxe5+ Qxe5 Kh1 a4 Rxa4 Rxa4 Bxa4 Qd4 
24   +1.74   00:10 101035K  Na6 Nxd6 Kxd6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Nd5 Nxd5 Kxd5 d3 exd3 cxd3 Kc6 Bf3+ Kc7 Bd2 Rc8 b4 Qb5 Bc3 Kb8 Bxg7 cxb4 Be5+ Ka8 axb4 Qxd3 Rfd1 Qb5 Bd6 Rf7 
25   +1.82   00:17 165157K  Na6 Nxd6 Kxd6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Nd5 Nxd5 Kxd5 d3 exd3 cxd3 Qb5 b4 cxb4 Bf3+ Ke6 Re1+ Kf6 axb4 Rfe8 Bb2+ Kf7 Be5 Qb6+ Kh1 Rad8 Be4 Rd7 Bf5 Rde7 Be4 g6 Rec1 Rxe5 fxe5 
26   +1.55   00:20 199993K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 Nxd6 Kxd6 a3 Nd5 Nxd5 Kxd5 d3 exd3 cxd3 Qb5 b4 Rfe8 Bf3+ Ke6 Be3 cxb4 axb4 Kf7 Bc5 Kg8 Bd5+ Kh8 Ra5 Qxd3 Bxb7 Rab8 Rxa7 Qd2 h3 Rbd8 Kh2 Rd3 Kg1 Red8 f5 Qg5 
27   +1.67   00:24 234437K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Nxd6 Kxd6 Bd1 Kc7 a3 Nc6 Re1 Qd7 Rxe4 Rhe8 d3 Rad8 Be3 Nd4 b4 Qc6 Rxe8 Qxe8 Bf2 Qc6 Ne4 c4 a4 a6 Be3 cxd3 cxd3 Qg6 a5 
28   +1.77   00:31 301571K  Na6 Nxd6 Kxd6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Kc7 Re1 Qf7 Rxe4 Rae8 d3 Nd5 Nxd5+ Qxd5 Be3 Rxe4 Bf3 Qxd3 cxd3 Rxe3 Rc1 Kd6 Rc3 Re1+ Kf2 Rb1 Rc2 b6 g3 Re8 Be4 g6 h4 Ra1 b3 a6 Kf3 
29   +1.16   00:56 549129K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 a6 a3 Nc6 Re1 Qf7 Nxd6 Kxd6 Nxe4+ Kc7 Nxc5 Rae8 Ne4 Qxf4 d3 Qe5 c3 Rhf8 Be3 Qb5 Be2 Rxe4 dxe4 Qxb2 Rab1 Qxa3 Red1 Qxc3 Bf2 Rxf2 Kxf2 a5 Kf1 Qe3 Bf3 Ne5 
30   +1.74   01:23 811465K  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 f5 Be5 d3 Bd4+ Kh1 exd3 Bf4+ Kd8 Nd6 Qe7 Bf3 dxc2 Rae1 Qxe1 Rxe1 Nd3 Re2 Nxf4 Rxc2 Ke7 Nxb7 Rxf5 Nxc5 Rd8 Nb3 Re5 Ne4 Bb6 h4 Nd5 Nc1 Kf7 Ng5+ Kg8 
31   +1.56   01:47   1042M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 f5 Be5 d3 Bd4+ Kh1 exd3 Bf4+ Kd8 Nd6 Qe7 Bf3 dxc2 Rae1 Qxe1 Rxe1 Nd3 Re2 Nxf4 Nxb7+ Kc7 Rxc2 Rae8 h4 Re1+ Kh2 Bg1+ Kg3 Nd3 Nd5+ Kb8 Nf4 Nxf4 Kxf4 Be3+ Kg4 h5+ Kg3 Rxf5 Nd6 Rf6 Ne4 Rg6+ Kh2 Bg1+ Kh3 Bd4 g3 
32   +1.66   02:31   1471M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 b3 Qf6 Rb1 Qg5 Nd4 Rf6 Bg4 a5 Bb2 Raa6 Ndf5 Rf7 Ng3 Qd8 Nxe4 Re7 d3 Qb6 Re1 a4 bxa4 Rxa4 Kh1 Ra2 Nd5 Qd8 Nxe7 Rxb2 Nc5 Rxc2 Nd7+ Ka7 d4 
33   +1.68   02:52   1672M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 b3 Qf6 Rb1 Qg5 Nd4 Rf6 Bb2 Kc7 Bg4 Rd8 Rd1 b5 g3 Qc5 Ne6+ Rxe6 Bxe6 a5 Kh1 a4 Bf5 g6 Bxe4 a3 Bf6 Rxd2 Rxd2 Qxe3 
34   +1.33   03:53   2264M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 b3 Qf6 c3 Rf2 Nd6 bxc3 Nxe4 Rf1+ Nxf1 Qd4+ Nf2 c2 Bxc2 Qxa1 Nd3 Qa5 Bb2 g6 Bc3 Qb6+ Ne3 Kc7 b4 Qb5 Nf4 Re8 Bd1 Kb8 Bf3 h5 Nfd5 Qa6 Kf2 Qd3 Nf4 Qd6 g3 b5 Bd5 g5 Nxh5 
35   +1.39   04:04   2373M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 b3 Qf6 c3 Rf2 Nd6 bxc3 Nxe4 Rf1+ Nxf1 Qd4+ Nf2 c2 Bxc2 Qxa1 Nd3 Qa5 Bb2 g6 Bc3 Qb5 Ne3 Kc7 b4 Rc8 Nf4 Kb8 Bd1 Re8 Nfd5 Qa6 g3 h5 Bf3 Rf8 Be5+ Kc8 Bg2 Qe2 Bh3+ Kd8 Bf4 Ke8 b5 Qxb5 
36   +1.22   04:57   2889M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 b3 Qf6 c3 Rf2 Nd6 bxc3 Nxe4 Rf1+ Nxf1 Qd4+ Nf2 c2 Bxc2 Qxa1 Nd3 Qa5 Bb2 g6 Bc3 Qb5 Ne3 Kc7 Nf4 Re8 b4 Kb8 Bd3 Qc6 Nfd5 Qd6 Be2 h5 Bf3 Qa6 g3 Qd3 Kg2 Qb1 Kf2 Rf8 Nf4 a6 Kg2 Rf7 
37   +1.18   06:24   3740M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 b3 Qf6 c3 Rf2 Nd6 bxc3 Nxe4 Rf1+ Nxf1 Qd4+ Nf2 c2 Bxc2 Qxa1 Nd3 g6 Bb2 Qa5 Bc3 Qb5 Ne3 a5 Ne5 Kc7 N5c4 Ra6 g3 Qg5 Be4 Qc5 Kg2 a4 Be5+ Kd7 Bxb7 Ra7 b4 Qxb4 Bf3 a3 Bd6 Qxd6 Bg4+ Ke7 Nxd6 
38   +1.15   07:41   4486M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 b3 Qf6 c3 Rf2 Nd6 bxc3 Nxe4 Rf1+ Nxf1 Qd4+ Nf2 c2 Bxc2 Qxa1 Nd3 g6 Bb2 Qa5 Bc3 Qb5 Ne3 Kc7 b4 Rc8 Nf4 Kb8 Bd1 Rf8 g3 Qe8 Bb3 Qe4 Bc2 Qc6 Bd3 b5 Bf1 Qe8 Nfd5 h5 Bg2 g5 Nf6 Qe6 Nxh5 
39   +1.57   08:44   5084M  Na6 O-O Nb4 Bd1 Rf8 a3 Bxf4 Rxf4 Rxf4 axb4 Qf7 Nb5+ Kb8 Ne3 cxb4 b3 Qf6 c3 Rf2 Nd6 bxc3 Nxe4 Rf1+ Nxf1 Qd4+ Nf2 cxd2 Bb2 Qxb2 Ra5 a6 Rd5 Ka7 Nxd2 Qf6 Nf3 Qb6 Kf1 Re8 h4 g6 Re5 Rd8 h5 Qf6 Kg1 gxh5 Rxh5 
40   +1.94   19:21  11310M  b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 h3 h5 Bf3 Nc6 Be4 Qf6 Bxd3 Rhe8 Nxb5+ Kd7 Rd1 Rad8 Be3 Kc8 Bxc5 Re5 b4 Rxd3 cxd3 Rxc5 bxc5 Qb2+ Kg1 Qxb5 d4 Qe2 Kh1 Nb4 Re1 Qf2 Re8+ Kd7 Ra8 Qxd4 Rxa7+ Kc6 Re1 Nd5 Re5 Qxf4 Re6+ Kb5 Rg6 Qf1+ Kh2 Kxc5 Rgxg7 Qf4+ Kh1 Qe5 Raf7 Kc4 a3 
Nodes: 11310328506
Nodes/second: 9739452
Best move: b5
[code]

Of course, I am investigating further.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 10124
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue May 21, 2019 10:32 pm

I'm doing a 51 ply search, but it seems really volatile.
Right now, at a depth of 45 the score is +169.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by Eelco de Groot » Wed May 22, 2019 6:48 pm

With experimental Kaissa clone, the last three PVs have become more stable than before, but this is at a high depth, for Kaissa depth 45 but it does more extensions than anyone I think :lol: I have not really checked yet whether I have edited everything right in the Stockfish sources and this is its first run..
Threw out all the null move changes and some of the heavy pruning.

I don't think you'll find ...b5 wins for Black and you're just seeing Black's material advantage of Queen vs Knight ad Bishop, I suppose. It's an unusual imbalance and not sure the material imbalance table is getting it right.

Kaissa sticks to ...Na6 throughout only checking ..b5 if there is a temp FL of ...Na6

Code: Select all

rn2q2r/ppk3pp/3b4/2p5/2N1pPB1/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1B1K2R b KQ -

Engine: Kaissa IV (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G.

15/44  0:02   -1.64    1...Be7 2.O-O Bf6 3.Nd5+ Kc6 4.Nxf6 gxf6 
                       5.b3 Kc7 6.Bb2 Qf7 7.Bf5 Nc6 8.Bxe4 Rad8 
                       9.a4 Rhe8 10.Rae1 Nb4 11.Bf5 (3.741.460) 1754 

16/28  0:02   -1.69    1...Be7 2.O-O Nc6 3.d3 exd3 4.Nd5+ Kb8 
                       5.cxd3 Qd8 6.Nxe7 Qxe7 7.f5 Qh4 8.h3 Qf6 
                       9.Bf4+ Kc8 10.Nd6+ Kd7 11.Nxb7 Qd4+ 
                       12.Kh2 (4.410.177) 1761 

17/30  0:03   -1.60--  1...Be7 2.O-O (5.348.189) 1760 

17/34  0:03   -1.69++  1...Na6 (6.331.674) 1750 

17/34  0:03   -1.51--  1...Na6 2.O-O (6.984.259) 1750 

17/35  0:04   -1.67++  1...Na6 (7.374.880) 1753 

17/35  0:04   -1.72    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 a6 4.a3 Nc6 
                       5.Nd5+ Kb8 6.Ndb6 Bc7 7.Nxa8 Kxa8 
                       8.Ne3 Qf7 9.g3 h5 10.Kg2 h4 11.Bg4 hxg3 
                       12.hxg3 Qg6 (7.846.095) 1758 

18/36  0:04   -1.81++  1...Na6 (8.463.140) 1764 

18/36  0:04   -1.91++  1...Na6 (8.547.742) 1765 

18/36  0:04   -2.04++  1...Na6 (8.628.604) 1765 

18/36  0:05   -2.22++  1...Na6 (8.990.986) 1769 

18/36  0:05   -2.45++  1...Na6 (9.211.796) 1773 

18/36  0:05   -1.99    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.g3 Qe6 6.axb4 Bxg3 7.hxg3 Qxc4 
                       8.d3 Rxf1+ 9.Kxf1 Rf8+ 10.Ke1 exd3 
                       11.Bf4+ Rxf4 12.gxf4 cxb4 13.cxd3 (9.240.883) 1774 

19/27  0:05   -2.08++  1...Na6 (9.417.121) 1775 

19/39  0:05   -1.90--  1...Na6 2.O-O (9.917.629) 1772 

19/41  0:06   -2.04++  1...Na6 (11.639.654) 1766 

19/41  0:06   -2.21++  1...Na6 (12.106.672) 1766 

19/41  0:07   -2.44++  1...Na6 (12.563.641) 1770 

19/41  0:07   -2.63    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.Nxd6 Kxd6 
                       5.Re1 Qg6 6.Rxe4 Nd5 7.d3 Nxc3 
                       8.bxc3 Rae8 9.Bf3 Rxe4 10.dxe4 Qf7 
                       11.g3 Kc7 12.Bd2 Qg6 13.Kg2 Re8 
                       14.Rc1 (13.079.665) 1775 

20/31  0:07   -2.53--  1...Na6 2.O-O (13.790.949) 1778 

20/31  0:07   -2.44--  1...Na6 2.O-O (13.935.309) 1777 

20/31  0:07   -2.31--  1...Na6 2.O-O (14.102.298) 1775 

20/31  0:08   -2.13--  1...Na6 2.O-O (14.308.008) 1775 

20/31  0:08   -1.90--  1...Na6 2.O-O (16.005.036) 1778 

20/46  0:10   -2.08++  1...Na6 (18.826.421) 1785 

20/46  0:11   -2.10    1...Na6 2.Nd5+ Kc6 3.Nxd6 Qd8 4.Nf5 Kxd5 
                       5.O-O Kc6 6.Ne3 g6 7.b3 Nb4 8.Bb2 Re8 
                       9.Rad1 Nd5 10.Be2 a6 11.Be5 h5 
                       12.Nxd5 (20.787.175) 1777 

21/36  0:13   -2.00--  1...Na6 2.O-O (23.921.414) 1772 

21/36  0:14   -1.91--  1...Na6 2.O-O (25.616.726) 1776 

21/45  0:15   -2.00++  1...Na6 (27.462.146) 1783 

21/46  0:16   -1.78--  1...Na6 2.O-O (28.681.473) 1786 

21/52  0:17   -1.98++  1...Na6 (32.236.889) 1797 

21/52  0:18   -2.27++  1...Na6 (33.016.741) 1801 

21/52  0:18   -2.19    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.Nxd6 Kxd6 
                       5.Re1 Qg6 6.a3 Nd5 7.Nxd5 Kxd5 8.d3 exd3 
                       9.cxd3 Kd6 10.Be3 Rae8 11.Rc1 Rxe3 
                       12.Rxe3 Re8 13.Re5 Rxe5 14.fxe5+ Ke7 (33.808.911) 1799 

22/32  0:19   -2.28++  1...Na6 (35.832.864) 1804 

22/32  0:20   -2.09--  1...Na6 2.a4 (37.895.778) 1805 

22/37  0:22   -1.96--  1...Na6 2.a4 (39.761.392) 1799 

22/41  0:23   -2.10++  1...Na6 (42.106.492) 1803 

22/44  0:23   -1.92    1...Na6 2.a4 Nb4 3.Nb5+ Qxb5 4.axb5 Nxc2+ 
                       5.Ke2 Nxa1 6.d3 exd3+ 7.Kxd3 Nb3 
                       8.Nxd6 Kxd6 9.Kc4 h5 10.Bh3 Nxc1 
                       11.Rxc1 Rhe8 12.Rd1+ Kc7 13.Bf5 Re2 
                       14.Kxc5 (43.002.773) 1804 

23/37  0:24   -2.02++  1...Na6 (44.806.992) 1808 

23/37  0:25   -2.11++  1...Na6 (45.998.146) 1810 

23/37  0:26   -2.24++  1...Na6 (47.674.093) 1806 

23/40  0:27   -2.03    1...Na6 2.a4 Be7 3.O-O Nb4 4.Bd1 Qg8 
                       5.b3 Bf6 6.Bb2 Bd4+ 7.Kh1 Bxc3 
                       8.Bxc3 Nc6 9.Ne3 Qf7 10.Be5+ Kd8 
                       11.Bb2 Rf8 12.Be2 Kc7 (49.281.285) 1803 

24/30  0:29   -2.13++  1...Na6 (53.332.932) 1794 

24/31  0:30   -2.22++  1...Na6 (54.692.571) 1792 

24/40  0:36   -1.94--  1...Na6 2.a4 (64.584.861) 1784 

24/40  0:47   -1.76--  1...Na6 2.a4 (83.951.279) 1783 

24/42  0:55   -1.95++  1...Na6 (98.931.969) 1792 

24/48  0:57   -2.24++  1...Na6 (102.622.128) 1791 

24/48  0:57   -2.23    1...Na6 2.a4 Qg6 3.Nb5+ Kb8 4.Bh3 Bc7 
                       5.O-O Nb4 6.b3 Nxc2 7.Bb2 Nxa1 8.Ne5 Qe8 
                       9.Rxa1 b6 10.Bf5 a6 11.Nd7+ Kb7 
                       12.Nxc7 Kxc7 13.a5 Rd8 14.axb6+ Kc6 (103.282.116) 1792 

25/38  1:08   -2.14--  1...Na6 2.Nd5+ (122.141.437) 1795 

25/38  1:16   -2.05--  1...Na6 2.O-O (136.528.640) 1793 

25/38  1:16   -1.92--  1...Na6 2.O-O (137.408.320) 1792 

25/50  1:17   -1.85    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.Nxd6 Kxd6 
                       5.a3 Nd5 6.Nxd5 Kxd5 7.d3 exd3 
                       8.cxd3 Kd6 9.b4 Kc7 10.Bf3 Rd8 
                       11.Bb2 Qe3+ 12.Kh1 Qxf4 13.bxc5 Qg5 
                       14.Bc3 Rd7 (139.306.358) 1789 

26/42  1:19   -1.94++  1...Na6 (141.956.689) 1791 

26/42  1:23   -2.04++  1...Na6 (149.307.074) 1795 

26/42  1:36   -2.17++  1...Na6 (174.622.465) 1810 

26/62  2:04   -1.76--  1...Na6 2.Nd5+ (225.793.126) 1813 

26/62  2:28   -2.05++  1...Na6 (270.757.763) 1819 

26/62  2:47   -1.93    1...Na6 2.Nxd6 Kxd6 3.O-O Nb4 4.Bd1 c4 
                       5.b3 cxb3 6.axb3 Qc6 7.Kh1 Kc7 8.Bb2 Rhd8 
                       9.Re1 Re8 10.Ra4 a5 11.Be2 Kb6 
                       12.Bb5 Qg6 13.Bxe8 Rxe8 14.Rc1 (304.646.399) 1820 

27/38  2:55   -1.84--  1...Na6 2.Nxd6 (320.143.379) 1823 

27/58  3:22   -1.75--  1...Na6 2.O-O (371.422.286) 1830 

27/58  3:26   -1.61--  1...Na6 2.O-O (377.312.925) 1830 

27/58  3:45   -1.73++  1...Na6 (415.532.913) 1843 

27/58  3:49   -1.96++  1...Na6 (423.695.999) 1844 

27/60  4:07   -1.84    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.f5 Be5 
                       5.d3 Bd4+ 6.Kh1 exd3 7.Bf4+ Kd8 
                       8.Nd6 Qe7 9.Bf3 dxc2 10.Rae1 Qxe1 
                       11.Rxe1 Nd3 12.Re2 Nxf4 13.Rxc2 Ke7 
                       14.Nxb7 Rxf5 (456.763.302) 1848 

28/44  4:18   -1.93++  1...Na6 (479.835.763) 1854 

28/44  4:36   -1.90    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.f5 Be5 
                       5.d3 Bd4+ 6.Kh1 exd3 7.Bf4+ Kd8 
                       8.Nd6 Qe7 9.Bf3 dxc2 10.Rae1 Qxe1 
                       11.Rxe1 Nd3 12.Re2 Nxf4 13.Rxc2 Ke7 
                       14.Nxb7 Rxf5 (512.512.922) 1854 

29/38  4:49   -1.94    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.f5 Be5 
                       5.d3 Bd4+ 6.Kh1 exd3 7.Bf4+ Kd8 
                       8.Nd6 Qe7 9.Bf3 dxc2 10.Rae1 Qxe1 
                       11.Rxe1 Nd3 12.Re2 Nxf4 13.Rxc2 Ke7 
                       14.Nxb7 Rxf5 (536.656.350) 1856 

30/53  5:00   -1.93    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.f5 Be5 
                       5.d3 Bd4+ 6.Kh1 exd3 7.Bf4+ Kd8 
                       8.Nd6 Qe7 9.Bf3 dxc2 10.Rae1 Qxe1 
                       11.Rxe1 Nd3 12.Re2 Nxf4 13.Rxc2 Ke7 
                       14.Nxb7 Rxf5 (557.440.762) 1856 

31/46  5:18   -2.02++  1...Na6 (592.451.594) 1859 

31/58  5:48   -1.84--  1...Na6 2.O-O (648.806.043) 1860 

31/59  5:57   -1.70--  1...Na6 2.O-O (663.932.048) 1859 

31/59  6:13   -1.53--  1...Na6 2.O-O (693.735.129) 1859 

31/59  7:52   -1.30--  1...Na6 2.O-O (879.397.230) 1860 

31/59  8:01   -1.49++  1...Na6 (896.066.247) 1860 

31/59  8:25   -1.79    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Rf8 7.Ne3 cxb4 
                       8.Ncd5+ Kb8 9.b3 Qf7 10.h3 b6 
                       11.Nxb4 Qf2+ 12.Kh1 Kb7 13.Nbd5 Qg3 
                       14.Bb2 Rad8 (940.809.658) 1861 

32/39  8:40   -1.70--  1...Na6 2.O-O (968.352.050) 1860 

32/39  8:48   -1.61--  1...Na6 2.O-O (983.641.685) 1860 

32/48  9:59   -1.51    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Rf8 7.Ne3 cxb4 
                       8.Ncd5+ Kb8 9.b3 Qf7 10.h3 b6 
                       11.Nxb4 Qf2+ 12.Kh1 Kb7 13.Nbd5 Qg3 
                       14.c4 Rf2 (1.113.479.423) 1856 

33/34  10:20  -1.60++  1...Na6 (1.152.542.741) 1856 

33/34  10:27  -1.69++  1...Na6 (1.165.626.148) 1856 

33/34  10:37  -1.83++  1...Na6 (1.183.272.288) 1857 

33/65  10:57  -1.97    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Rf8 7.Ne3 cxb4 
                       8.Ncd5+ Kb8 9.b3 Qf7 10.h3 b6 11.Bb2 Kb7 
                       12.Bg4 Rae8 13.Rf1 Qg6 14.Bf5 Qh6 (1.221.097.213) 1856 

34/64  11:04  -1.87--  1...Na6 2.O-O (1.232.903.994) 1856 

34/64  11:08  -1.78--  1...Na6 2.O-O (1.241.415.709) 1856 

34/64  11:13  -1.65--  1...Na6 2.O-O (1.249.939.662) 1855 

34/64  14:02  -1.47--  1...Na6 2.O-O (1.563.491.017) 1856 

34/64  14:23  -1.61++  1...Na6 (1.602.832.814) 1855 

34/64  15:39  -1.92++  1...Na6 (1.748.748.939) 1860 

34/64  17:07  -2.15    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.Nxd6 Kxd6 
                       5.a3 Nd5 6.Nxd5 Kxd5 7.d3 exd3 
                       8.cxd3 Qb5 9.Bf3+ Kd6 10.b4 cxb4 
                       11.axb4 Qb6+ 12.Kh1 Rac8 13.b5 Rxc1 
                       14.Rfxc1 Rxf4 (1.912.287.905) 1861 

35/35  17:46  -2.06--  1...Na6 2.O-O (1.986.610.925) 1862 

35/36  17:48  -1.96--  1...Na6 2.O-O (1.990.029.496) 1862 

35/38  22:03  -1.83--  1...Na6 2.a3 (2.472.635.432) 1868 

35/38  23:42  -1.65--  1...Na6 2.a3 (2.656.664.813) 1867 

35/38  24:13  -1.80++  1...Na6 (2.711.579.370) 1866 

35/59  25:26  -2.10++  1...Na6 (2.846.998.323) 1865 

35/59  26:09  -2.09    1...Na6 2.a3 Rd8 3.O-O Kb8 4.Bf5 Bc7 
                       5.Bxe4 Rf8 6.g3 b5 7.Ne3 Bb6 8.Bg2 c4 
                       9.Kh1 Nc7 10.a4 b4 11.Ne4 Bxe3 
                       12.dxe3 Qg6 13.c3 Rfe8 14.Ng5 Qc2 (2.928.005.539) 1865 

36/58  28:00  -2.19++  1...Na6 (3.133.872.497) 1864 

36/61  29:42  -2.00--  1...Na6 2.Nxd6 (3.323.367.324) 1864 

36/61  30:38  -2.14++  1...Na6 (3.428.354.262) 1864 

36/65  31:20  -2.02    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Nxd6 Kxd6 4.Bd1 Kc7 
                       5.Re1 Qd7 6.Rxe4 Rae8 7.d3 b6 8.Be3 Kb8 
                       9.a3 Nc6 10.Rb1 Rhf8 11.h3 Qf7 12.b4 Rxe4 
                       13.Nxe4 Qa2 14.Nd2 Re8 (3.508.216.930) 1865 

37/38  34:16  -2.11++  1...Na6 (3.844.276.386) 1869 

37/52  38:31  -2.21++  1...Na6 (4.324.073.969) 1870 

37/52  39:45  -1.92--  1...Na6 2.O-O (4.460.184.149) 1869 

37/52  39:58  -1.75--  1...Na6 2.O-O (4.482.586.250) 1869 

37/52  43:53  -1.94++  1...Na6 (4.948.325.742) 1879 

37/66  45:56  -1.52--  1...Na6 2.O-O (5.180.797.370) 1879 

37/66  55:51  -1.87++  1...Na6 (6.330.463.685) 1888 

37/78  58:23  -2.08    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.d3 exd3 4.f5 h5 
                       5.Nxd6 Kxd6 6.Bf4+ Kd7 7.Bh3 Qf8 
                       8.f6+ Kc6 9.cxd3 Nxd3 10.Bg5 c4 
                       11.fxg7 Qc5+ 12.Kh1 Qxg5 13.gxh8N Rxh8 
                       14.Rf7 Ne5 (6.629.023.515) 1892 

38/52  59:53  -2.17++  1...Na6 (6.806.606.704) 1893 

38/60  62:57  -1.99--  1...Na6 2.O-O (7.170.510.844) 1898 

38/60  63:39  -2.13++  1...Na6 (7.254.440.295) 1899 

38/71  66:43  -2.30++  1...Na6 (7.607.922.497) 1900 

38/71  69:46  -1.85--  1...Na6 2.O-O (7.967.794.983) 1903 

38/71  70:51  -1.57--  1...Na6 2.O-O (8.088.651.239) 1902 

38/71  71:10  -1.88++  1...Na6 (8.125.650.528) 1902 

38/71  75:35  -2.16    1...Na6 2.Nxd6 Kxd6 3.O-O Nb4 4.Bd1 Rf8 
                       5.a3 Nd5 6.Nxd5 Kxd5 7.d3 exd3 
                       8.Bf3+ Kd6 9.cxd3 Qb5 10.b4 cxb4 
                       11.axb4 Qb6+ 12.Kh1 Rac8 13.b5 Rxc1 
                       14.Rfxc1 Rxf4 (8.638.523.936) 1904 

39/52  76:24  -2.07--  1...Na6 2.Nxd6 (8.731.567.135) 1904 

39/60  77:12  -1.98--  1...Na6 2.Nxd6 (8.819.898.205) 1904 

39/68  78:55  -1.84--  1...Na6 2.O-O (9.011.717.816) 1903 

39/68  79:25  -1.67--  1...Na6 2.O-O (9.066.404.701) 1902 

39/68  79:48  -1.81++  1...Na6 (9.111.852.469) 1902 

39/68  82:23  -1.65    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Qf7 7.Nb5+ Kb8 
                       8.Be2 Rf2 9.Ne5 Qf5 10.Nd7+ Qxd7 
                       11.Kxf2 a6 12.Nc3 Qd4+ 13.Kf1 cxb4 
                       14.Nd1 Ka7 (9.401.680.484) 1901 

40/50  86:45  -1.55--  1...Na6 2.O-O (9.890.195.613) 1899 

40/56  90:04  -1.46--  1...Na6 2.O-O (10.261.116.912) 1898 

40/60  93:10  -1.55++  1...Na6 (10.615.779.844) 1899 

40/60  93:39  -1.73++  1...Na6 (10.669.377.480) 1898 

40/60  95:06  -1.90    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Qf7 7.Nb5+ Kb8 
                       8.Ne3 cxb4 9.b3 Qf6 10.Rb1 Qg5 
                       11.Nd4 Rf6 12.Bb2 Kc7 13.Bg4 Re8 
                       14.Ndf5 Rf7 (10.836.488.459) 1898 

41/42  95:29  -1.80--  1...Na6 2.O-O (10.878.281.313) 1898 

41/44  95:43  -1.71--  1...Na6 2.O-O (10.903.106.831) 1898 

41/52  103:13 -1.58--  1...Na6 2.O-O (11.740.564.695) 1895 

41/63  113:58 -1.40--  1...Na6 2.O-O (12.960.584.200) 1895 

41/63  115:33 -1.54++  1...Na6 (13.137.611.011) 1894 

41/63  117:43 -1.69    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Rf8 7.Ne3 cxb4 
                       8.Ncd5+ Kb8 9.b3 Qf7 10.h3 b6 
                       11.Nxb4 Qf2+ 12.Kh2 Qf6 13.Ra4 a5 
                       14.Nbd5 Qe5+ (13.380.593.901) 1894 

42/76  120:50 -1.59--  1...Na6 2.O-O (13.729.737.870) 1893 

42/76  134:32 -1.69++  1...Na6 (15.299.332.112) 1895 

42/76  137:55 -1.82++  1...Na6 (15.690.212.088) 1896 

42/85  149:02 -2.00++  1...Na6 (16.954.491.451) 1896 

42/85  155:28 -1.55    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.f5 Be5 
                       5.d3 Bd4+ 6.Kh1 e3 7.Ne4 b6 8.Bxe3 Bxe3 
                       9.Nxe3 Qd7 10.Bf3 Rae8 11.a3 Nc6 
                       12.Nc3 Kb8 13.Be4 h5 14.Ncd5 Ne5 (17.701.155.212) 1897 

43/42  158:40 -1.64++  1...Na6 (18.071.698.874) 1898 

43/49  161:24 -1.74++  1...Na6 (18.374.364.498) 1897 

43/62  168:03 -1.87++  1...Na6 (19.127.174.895) 1896 

43/62  173:07 -1.73    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.f5 Be5 
                       5.d3 Bd4+ 6.Kh1 e3 7.Ne4 b6 8.Nxe3 Qe5 
                       9.f6 gxf6 10.Nf5 Bxb2 11.Bf4 Bxa1 
                       12.Bxe5+ Bxe5 13.a3 Nc6 14.g3 Rad8 (19.717.741.310) 1898 

44/65  190:20 -1.83++  1...Na6 (21.704.500.304) 1900 

44/65  205:07 -1.64--  1...Na6 2.O-O (23.440.218.651) 1904 

44/65  210:01 -1.51--  1...Na6 2.O-O (23.995.107.627) 1904 

44/65  214:17 -1.64++  1...Na6 (24.493.455.196) 1905 

44/83  224:49 -1.87++  1...Na6 (25.734.531.771) 1907 

44/83  237:41 -2.16++  1...Na6 (27.209.735.840) 1907 

44/83  239:34 -1.85    1...Na6 2.a4 Qg6 3.Nb5+ Kb8 4.Bh3 Bc7 
                       5.O-O Nb4 6.f5 Qe8 7.d4 Nxc2 8.Nxc7 Kxc7 
                       9.Bf4+ Kc6 10.d5+ Kxd5 11.Nd6 Qh5 
                       12.Rfd1+ Kc6 13.Nf7 Nd4 14.Ne5+ Kd5 (27.420.562.517) 1907 

45/63  247:35 -1.76--  1...Na6 2.O-O (28.334.717.927) 1907 

45/63  250:20 -1.66--  1...Na6 2.O-O (28.650.819.040) 1907 

45/63  258:40 -1.53--  1...Na6 2.O-O (29.592.914.527) 1906 

45/63  278:28 -1.35--  1...Na6 2.O-O (31.920.609.167) 1910 

45/63  288:29 -1.50++  1...Na6 (33.060.051.101) 1909 

45/63  297:17 -1.80++  1...Na6 (34.068.277.203) 1909 

45/69  319:59 -1.54    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Qf7 7.Nb5+ Kb8 
                       8.Be2 Rf2 9.Ne5 Qf5 10.Nd7+ Qxd7 
                       11.Kxf2 a6 12.Nc3 Qd4+ 13.Kf1 cxb4 
                       14.Nd1 Ka7 (36.691.241.157) 1911 

46/52  323:49 -1.63++  1...Na6 (37.129.276.109) 1910 

46/88  328:18 -1.73++  1...Na6 (37.649.764.166) 1911 

46/92  331:39 -1.86++  1...Na6 (38.035.642.052) 1911 

46/92  362:05 -1.45--  1...Na6 2.O-O (41.594.611.423) 1914 

46/92  374:46 -1.74++  1...Na6 (43.041.227.663) 1914 

46/92  392:31 -1.75    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Qf7 7.Nb5+ Kb8 
                       8.Be2 Rf2 9.Ne5 Qf5 10.Nd7+ Qxd7 
                       11.Kxf2 a6 12.Nc3 Qd4+ 13.Kf1 cxb4 
                       14.Nd1 Ka7 (45.107.555.606) 1915 

47/84  397:00 -1.66--  1...Na6 2.O-O (45.622.006.620) 1915 

47/84  400:39 -1.75++  1...Na6 (46.032.051.515) 1914 

47/84  409:44 -1.88++  1...Na6 (47.085.530.519) 1915 

47/86  414:52 -1.83    1...Na6 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 
                       5.Rxf4 Rxf4 6.axb4 Qf7 7.Nb5+ Kb8 
                       8.Be2 Rf2 9.Ne5 Qf5 10.Nd7+ Qxd7 
                       11.Kxf2 a6 12.Nc3 Qd4+ 13.Kf1 cxb4 
                       14.Nd1 Ka7 (47.674.266.470) 1915 

48/68  425:03 -1.92++  1...Na6 (48.860.121.690) 1915 

48/68  501:55 -2.01++  1...Na6 (57.810.447.230) 1919 

48/71  529:32 -1.73--  1...Na6 2.O-O (61.037.451.541) 1921 

48/71  553:51 -1.55--  1...Na6 2.O-O (63.771.477.141) 1919 

48/71  565:41 -1.75++  1...Na6 (65.106.841.699) 1918 
PV:





Engine: Kaissa IV (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

32 5:51 -2.15 12.Nc3 Qd4+ 13.Kf1 cxb4 14.Nd1 Ka7
15.Ne3 Rf8+ 16.Kg1 g6 17.c3 Qf6
18.Nd1 Kb8 19.g3 h5 20.cxb4 h4
21.Ra3 Qd4+ 22.Ne3 Qxb4 23.Kg2 h3+
24.Kg1 Qd4 25.Rc3 (637.306.572) 1811

32 5:51 -4.32 12.d4 g5 13.dxc5 axb5 14.Rxa8+ Kxa8
15.c3 Qf5+ 16.Kg1 Qd5 17.Kf1 Qb3
18.Kf2 Qc2 19.Bxg5 Qxb2 20.Be3 Qxc3
21.Bxb5 Qxb4 22.Be2 Qb2 23.g4 Qe5
24.Kg2 Qc3 25.Kf2 (637.306.572) 1811
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by Eelco de Groot » Thu May 23, 2019 5:12 pm

After 1...Na6




Engine: Kaissa IV (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G.

46 1044:05-1.49 2.Nxd6 Kxd6 3.a3 Nc7 4.b4 Qg6 5.h3 Ke7
6.O-O cxb4 7.axb4 Rhe8 8.Ra5 Qb6+
9.Kh2 Kf8 10.Bf5 Kg8 11.Bxe4 Qxb4
12.Ra4 Qb6 13.d3 Na6 14.Bd5+ Kh8
15.Ba3 (103.763.893.515) 1656

46 1044:05-1.53 2.O-O Nb4 3.Bd1 Rf8 4.a3 Bxf4 5.Rxf4 Rxf4
6.axb4 Qf7 7.Nb5+ Kb8 8.Ne3 cxb4
9.b3 Qf6 10.c3 Rf2 11.Nd6 bxc3
12.Nxe4 Rf1+ 13.Nxf1 Qd4+ 14.Nf2 c2
15.Bxc2 (103.763.893.515) 1656

46 1044:05-1.65 2.a4 Rd8 3.Nb5+ Kb8 4.Nbxd6 Rxd6
5.Nxd6 Qg6 6.Nc4 Qxg4 7.O-O Nb4
8.Ne3 Qd7 9.b3 Qd4 10.c3 Qf6 11.Rb1 Nd3
12.Nd5 Qg6 13.c4 h5 14.Bb2 h4 15.Bc3 (103.763.893.515) 1656

46 1044:05-2.30 2.a3 Rd8 3.O-O Kb8 4.Bf5 Bc7 5.Bxe4 Rf8
6.g3 b5 7.Ne3 Bb6 8.Bg2 c4 9.Kh1 h5
10.a4 b4 11.Ncd5 h4 12.Nxb6 axb6
13.Nxc4 hxg3 14.hxg3 b3 15.Ne5 (103.763.893.515) 1656

2. Nxd6 passed 2. O-O but only at depth 46, it may switch back. Both scores look a bit drawish; slightly less negative for White than in the beginning. In the O-O line, 6...Rf8 may be an improvement over 6...Qf7 but Stockfish does not see it here even though the depth is high. Only if you go to that move:




Engine: Kaissa IV (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

50 702:03 -2.56 6...Rf8 7.Nd5+ Kb8 8.h3 cxb4 9.Nce3 a5
10.b3 Qe5 11.Rb1 Ra6 12.Bb2 Qg3
13.Bg4 g6 14.Nc4 Qf2+ 15.Kh2 b5
16.Nce3 Rd8 17.Be5+ Kb7 18.Bg3 Qf8
19.c4 bxc3 (72.358.986.576) 1717

50 702:03 -1.94 6...Qf7 7.Nb5+ Kb8 8.Ne3 {Note this move is much better than 8.Be2 from the pgn above} cxb4 9.b3 Qf6
10.c3 Rf2 11.Nd4 Qh4 12.cxb4 Rf7
13.h3 a6 14.Bb2 Qe1+ 15.Kh2 Qxd2
16.Ndc2 Qd6+ 17.Kg1 b5 18.Bg4 Kb7
19.Rd1 Qb6 (72.358.986.576) 1717

These are pretty deep searches and scores might seem almost winning for Black, but I have doubts. Maybe it is the material imbalance that cause Stock to overevaluate the advantage. Trompe l'oeil On the other hand the high scores a certain discrepancy with the more drawish scores from the first diagram Multi PV = 4 from the beginning of the line. So Dann's diagram more a Nordlandia material imbalance postion :) The draw is not clear.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

Dann Corbit
Posts: 10124
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by Dann Corbit » Thu May 23, 2019 6:04 pm

I had several engines take a look last night. Seems like Na6 and b5 are pretty close.
rn2q2r/ppk3pp/3b4/2p5/2N1pPB1/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1B1K2R b KQ - acd 37; acs 3613 ; acn 59450681k; ce 173 ; bm Na6; pv Na6 O-O Nb4;
rn2q2r/ppk3pp/3b4/2p5/2N1pPB1/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1B1K2R b KQ - acd 39/69; acs 3986 ; acn 98880085k; ce 125 ; bm b5; pv b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 h3 h5 Bf3 Nc6 Rd1 Rad8 Rxd3+ Kc7 Be4 Qf6 Nd5+ Rxd5 Rxd5 Re8 Bf3 Nd4 Rxc5+ Kb6 Rc3 Nxf3 Kxf3 Ka6 Be3 b4 Rd3 g5 Rad1 Qf5 Re1 gxf4 Bf2 Rxe1 Bxe1 Qe6 Kf2 Qxa2 Rb3 Qb1 Rxb4 Qxc2+ Kg1 f3 gxf3 Qe2 Bf2 Qxf3 Ra4+ Kb5 Ra3;
rn2q2r/ppk3pp/3b4/2p5/2N1pPB1/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1B1K2R b KQ - acd 39; acs 2902 ; acn 68003481k; ce 143 ; bm b5; pv b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 h3 h5 Bf3 Nc6 Rd1 Rad8 Be3 Kc7 cxd3 Nd4 Be4 Qf6 Rac1 Kb8 Kg1 b4 Na4 Ne2+ Kh2 Qh4 Nxc5 Rd6 Kh1 Nxc1 Rxc1 Rc8 f5 a5 Bg1 Qf4 Re1 Qh6 d4 Qf6 Bh2 Qxd4 Na6+ Ka7 Bg1 Kxa6 Bxd4 Rxd4 Bf3 Rd2 b3 Rxa2 Kh2 Rc5;
rn2q2r/ppk3pp/3b4/2p5/2N1pPB1/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1B1K2R b KQ - acd 40+; acs 2831 ; acn 68896687k; ce 157 ; bm b5; pv b5 Nxd6 Kxd6;

My deepest search was only 50 plies, but I got this:
rn2q2r/ppk3pp/3b4/2p5/2N1pPB1/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1B1K2R b KQ - acd 50; bm b5; ce 165; pm b5; pv b5 Nxd6 Kxd6 d3 exd3+ Kf2 Qg6 h3 h5 Bf3 Nc6 cxd3 Rhe8 Be3 Rxe3 Kxe3 Re8+ Kf2 Nd4 Ne4+ Kc7 a4 Nxf3 gxf3 Qb6 a5 Qh6 Rac1 c4 dxc4 b4 Rhg1 Qxf4 Rxg7+ Kb8 Rd1 Qh2+ Rg2 Qxh3 b3 Qh4+ Rg3 Qh2+ Rg2 Qe5 Rd7 Qb2+ Nd2 Qa1 Rg1 Qxa5 Ne4 h4 Rgg7 Qa2+ Kg1 h3 Rb7+ Ka8 Rbd7 h2+ Kh1 Rh8 Rh7 Rxh7;
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

jp
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by jp » Tue May 28, 2019 7:19 am

What is the concern here? Is it that at depth 40 or 50 it switches, or is it the difference in eval. at one higher ply?
If it gives many moves similar evals, it's not a surprise if it switches, right? That's not really volatility.

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by Eelco de Groot » Tue May 28, 2019 2:01 pm

For me, I was mainly interested if there really was a win, a strong winning move as Dann seemed to expect, or a gradual one. Given a Queen against Knight and Bishop and pawn, or Queen and Rook against 4 light pieces, is Queen highly redundant with two Rooks and is there disadvantage of no light pieces at all for Black, or is White missing the heavies more than Black the light brigade.

I had one search still running, :oops: not really worth the electricity but maybe something would change. It does not seem like it, the advantage is still there but I can't see any winning score for Black.




Engine: Kaissa IV (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

59 7821:09-2.30 6...Rf8 7.Nd5+ Kb8 8.d3 exd3 9.Nce3 Qf7
10.Bf3 dxc2 11.bxc5 Qg6 12.Kf2 Qd3
13.Nb4 Qb5 14.Nbxc2 a5 15.Kg1 Qxc5
16.Bd2 Re8 17.h3 Ra6 18.Ra3 a4
19.Be1 Qd6 (915.229.370.617) 1950

59 7821:09-1.96 6...Qf7 7.Nb5+ Kb8 8.Ne3 cxb4 9.b3 Qf6
10.Rb1 Qg5 11.Nd4 Rf6 12.Bb2 Kc7
13.Bg4 Rd8 14.Rd1 b5 15.Ne6+ Rxe6
16.Bxe6 a5 17.Kf2 Qh5 18.Kg1 Qc5
19.Kf2 a4 (915.229.370.617) 1950
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

jp
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by jp » Tue May 28, 2019 2:18 pm

Eelco de Groot wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:01 pm
For me, I was mainly interested if there really was a win, a strong winning move as Dann seemed to expect, or a gradual one.
Yes, that's what we're in the end interested in. And whether engines can evaluate the positions reliably.

Eelco de Groot wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:01 pm
I had one search still running, :oops: not really worth the electricity but maybe something would change. It does not seem like it, the advantage is still there but I can't see any winning score for Black.

59 7821:09-2.30 ... (915.229.370.617) 1950

59 7821:09-1.96 ... (915.229.370.617) 1950
That's good. :) But what do the numbers mean? I assume 59 is depth, 7821:09 time in minutes:seconds.
-2.30 I assume is the score. And the numbers at the end ((915.229.370.617) 1950) -- nodes & something else?

Yes, the -2.30 at depth=59 has decreased slightly from the -2.56 at depth=50, so it looks like the engine can't see a winning line.

What I've said before is that it's hard to claim there's one clear PV when in so many positions the engines show very small differences in eval. between different moves.

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Eelco de Groot
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Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by Eelco de Groot » Wed May 29, 2019 2:39 pm

Hoi Jean Paul,
Yes you are correct on all counts :) This just the standard output of Shredder GUI. The last number is not really giving much information as it is just nodes per second on my machine, using one thread.

Yes, not one PV possible, but many moves, all with a good score but none showing real progress. In a Monte Carlo search, I don't know if they would scale down the evaluation in such a case because it seems you can't win, in many variations, so winning chances must be lower than eval indicates, Always tricky if there is very slow progress possible, with good endgame knowledge in eval that is better than just concluding there is no progress, but with only trained eval you usually don't have that precision.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

jp
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: First ply of a big fail high. But it's looking grim for white

Post by jp » Fri May 31, 2019 3:10 pm

Eelco de Groot wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:39 pm
Yes, not one PV possible, but many moves, all with a good score but none showing real progress. ...
Always tricky if there is very slow progress possible, with good endgame knowledge in eval that is better than just concluding there is no progress, but with only trained eval you usually don't have that precision.
Yes, we can give the engine TBs, but it still needs to bridge the endgame before TB positions.

A comment from earlier --
zullil wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:07 pm
One thing that comes to mind is the vital importance of good static evaluations of near-tablebase positions. Now that engines search so deeply, they end up "making their plans" out of the opening based on very shallow searches of endgame positions at the leaves of a deep tree. This seems like an area where Stockfish, for example, could improve a lot.

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