Nemeth Gambit Revisited

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Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by AdminX » Sun May 26, 2019 8:28 pm

From: "DEFENDING HUMANITY'S HONOR"
https://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/honor.htm
Tim Krabbé wrote:
But perhaps Nemeth's greatest invention is an absurd anti-computer gambit that I would like to call the Nemeth Gambit. Using it, he beat five of the world's strongest chess programs in one day.




IMHO, This is clearly a position that engines just don't understand. :roll: Try to change my mind! :lol: Much respect for going all tactical on them Eduard!
Komodo wrote:
Analysis by Komodo 13.01 64-bit MCTS:

1. = (-0.03): 10...e5 11.Rd1+ Nd4 12.Qf5 Kc6 13.Qxe5 d5 14.Qxd4 b6 15.Nf3 Ba6 16.b4 Kc7 17.b5 Bb7 18.Nb1 Qf6 19.Qd3 Rc8 20.0-0 Kb8 21.Bd4 Qf5 22.Be5+ Bd6 23.Bxd6+ Nxd6 24.Nxc3 Qxd3 25.Rxd3 Ne4 26.Nxd5 Rc5 27.Nf4 Rxb5 28.Rd7 Nf6 29.Rxg7 Rf5 30.Ne6 Bxf3 31.gxf3 Nh5 32.Re7 Re5 33.Kh2 Nf4 34.Nd8
2. = (0.06): 10...Ke5 11.Nf3+ Kf6 12.Qxe4 Kf7 13.bxc3 d5 14.Qf4+ Kg8 15.Nb5 g6 16.0-0 Bg7 17.Bd4 Nxd4 18.cxd4 Qa5
3. = (0.09): 10...d6 11.Rd1+ Ke5 12.Nf3+ Kf6 13.Qxe4 h6 14.Nh4 Kf7 15.Ng6 cxb2 16.0-0 Kg8 17.Qc2 d5
4. +/- (0.99): 10...Ne5 11.Rd1+ Nd2 12.Qa4 Nd3+ 13.Ke2 Ke6 14.Kxd3

The position is equal

LC0 wrote:
Analysis by Lc0 v0.22.0-Dev112x9_32930:

1. = (-0.08): 10...e5 11.Rd1+ Nd4 12.Qf5 Bc5 13.Bxd4 Kc6 14.Bxc5 d5 15.Qf7 cxb2 16.Be7 Qa5+ 17.Kf1 Nd2+ 18.Ke2 b1Q 19.Nxb1 Nxb1 20.Rc1+ Nc3+ 21.Kf3 d4 22.Ne2 Qd5+ 23.Qxd5+ Kxd5 24.Nxc3+ dxc3 25.Bb4 Ke6 26.Rhd1 a5 27.Rd6+ Ke7 28.Bc5 Kf7 29.Rxc3 Be6 30.Ke4 Rhe8 31.a4 Rac8 32.Rb6 Rc7 33.Bb4 Rd7 34.Bd6 Red8 35.Kxe5 Re8 36.Kd4 Red8 37.Ke5 Re8 38.Kd4 Red8 39.Ke5
2. = (-0.06): 10...Ke5 11.Nf3+ Kf6 12.Qxe4 Kf7 13.bxc3 Qa5 14.Qc4+ e6 15.Nb5 a6 16.Nbd4 Be7 17.0-0 Rf8 18.Rfe1 Kg8 19.Rad1 Nxd4 20.Bxd4 b5 21.Qd3 Qc7 22.Be5 Qc6 23.Bd6 Bxd6 24.Qxd6
3. = (0.23): 10...Ne5 11.Rd1+ Nd2 12.Qd4+ Ke6 13.bxc3 Qa5 14.Rxd2 Qxa3 15.Qd5+ Kf6 16.Nf3 Nxf3+ 17.Qxf3+ Kg6 18.0-0 h6 19.Rd4 Kh7 20.Qf5+ Kg8 21.Rf4 e6 22.Qf7+ Kh7 23.Rg4
4. = (0.30): 10...d6 11.Rd1+ Ke5 12.Nf3+ Kf6 13.Qxe4 g6 14.0-0 Kg7 15.Nd4 cxb2 16.Nxc6 bxc6 17.Bd4+ Kg8 18.Qxc6 Rb8 19.Qc4+ d5 20.Qc3 e5

The position is equal

HoneyXPro wrote:
Analysis by Honey XPro MCTS:

1. = (-0.09): 10...e5 11.Rd1+ Nd4 12.Qf5 Kc6 13.Qxe5 d5 14.Qxd4 b6 15.Nf3 Bc5 16.Qxg7 Re8 17.Nd4+ Bxd4 18.Qxd4 Ba6 19.bxc3 Qd6 20.Nc2 Kb7 21.Qxd5+ Qxd5 22.Rxd5 Rac8 23.Rd7+ Kb8 24.a4 Nxc3 25.Kd2 Ne4+ 26.Kc1 Bb7 27.Re1 Bc6 28.Rxh7 Bxa4 29.Bf4+ Ka8 30.Rc7 Nxf2 31.Rxe8 Rxe8 32.Nb4 a5 33.Nd5 Nd3+ 34.Kb1 Nxf4 35.Nxb6+ Kb8 36.Rc4 Bb5 37.Rxf4 Kb7 38.Nc4 Bxc4 39.Rxc4 Re3 40.Rc1 Kb6 41.Kb2
2. = (0.00): 10...Ke5 11.Nf3+ Kf6 12.Qf4+ Ke6 13.Qxe4+ Kf7 14.bxc3 Qa5 15.Qc4+ e6 16.Nb5 a6 17.Nbd4 Be7 18.Nxc6 bxc6 19.Qf4+ Bf6 20.Bd4 Qf5 21.Ne5+ Bxe5 22.Qxe5 Qxe5+ 23.Bxe5 Ra7 24.0-0 Rb7 25.Rfb1 Rb5 26.Rxb5 cxb5 27.a4 Bb7 28.axb5 axb5 29.f3 Ra8 30.Rxa8 Bxa8 31.Kf2 Kg6 32.Ke2 Bd5 33.Ke3 h6 34.Kd4 Kf7 35.Ke3
3. = (0.15): 10...d6 11.Rd1+ Ke5 12.Nf3+ Kf6 13.Qxe4 h6 14.0-0 Kf7 15.Nh4 Kg8 16.Ng6 cxb2 17.Qc2 Qa5 18.Qxb2 Qb4 19.Qxb4 Nxb4 20.Nxh8 Kxh8 21.Nb5 Bf5 22.Rd2 b6 23.a4 Kg8 24.Rc1 Na6 25.Rb2 Bd7 26.Ra1 g5 27.a5 Bg7 28.Bd4 bxa5 29.Bxg7 Kxg7 30.Rxa5 Bxb5 31.Raxb5 Nc5 32.Rb8 Rxb8 33.Rxb8
4. +/- (1.45): 10...Ne5 11.Rd1+ Nd2 12.Qe2 Ke6 13.Bd4 d6 14.Bxc3 Kf7 15.Bxe5 dxe5 16.Rxd2 Qb6 17.Nc4 Qa6 18.Rd8 Kg8 19.Nf3 e4 20.Ng5 Bg4 21.Rxf8+ Rxf8 22.hxg4 Rc8 23.b3 b5 24.Qxe4 h6 25.Qd5+ e6 26.Nxe6 Qc6 27.Qxc6 Rxc6 28.Nd4 Rc5 29.Ne3 Rc1+ 30.Nd1 Ra1 31.0-0 Rxa2 32.Nc3 Rd2 33.Ndxb5 Kh7 34.Ra1 Rb2 35.Nd4 Rd8 36.Rd1 Rc8 37.Ncb5 Rd8 38.Nxa7 Ra8 39.Ra1 Kg8 40.f3 Kh7 41.Kh2 Rd8

The position is equal
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by Vinvin » Sun May 26, 2019 10:32 pm

Nd4, Ke5 and Ne5 seem to be losing.
I'll start on overnight analyze with the 2 best moves ( e5 and d6)

Code: Select all

McCain-X3_x64_modern:
...
 32/66	04:26	1 993 794 411	7 490 539	+2,06	1. ... Nd4 2.Bxd4 e5 3.Be3 Bxa3 4.Rd1+ Nd2 5.Ne2 Bxb2 6.Bxd2 cxd2+ 7.Rxd2+ Kc5 8.0-0 d5 9.Qg3 Kc6 10.Rxb2 b6 11.Rc1+ Kb7 12.Nc3 Bd7 13.Nxd5 Rc8 14.Rbc2 Rxc2 15.Rxc2 Re8 16.Rc7+ Kb8 17.Qa3 Qxc7 18.Nxc7 Kxc7 19.Qxa7+ Kc6 20.Qa4+ b5 21.Qc2+ Kd5 22.Qxh7 Re7 23.Qd3+ Ke6 24.Qg6+ Kd5 25.Kh2 Be8 26.Qd3+ Ke6 27.Qa3 Kf6 28.Kg3 Re6 29.Qf8+ Kg6 30.Qg8
 32/68	04:26	1 993 794 411	7 490 539	+1,81	1. ... Ke5 2.Nf3+ Kf6 3.Qf4+ Ke6 4.Nb5 d6 5.Qxe4+ Kd7 6.0-0 cxb2 7.Rab1 a6 8.Nbd4 Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Ke8 10.Rxb2 d5 11.Qh4 Qd6 12.Re1 Kf7 13.Bf4 Qc5 14.Be5 Kg8 15.Qf4 h6 16.Rb3 Qa5 17.Rc1 Qd8 18.Rc7 Qe8 19.Rb6 Rh7 20.Qg3 h5 21.Nf3 e6 22.Nh4 Be7 23.f4 Bd7 24.Rbxb7 Bxh4 25.Qxh4 Rd8 26.Qg5 d4 27.Bxd4 h4 28.Rb6
 32/67	04:26	1 993 794 411	7 490 539	+1,38	1. ... Ne5 2.Rd1+ Nd2 3.Qe2 Ke6 4.Bd4 Qc7 5.f4 Kf7 6.fxe5 Qc6 7.Nb5 Ne4 8.Nxc3 Nxc3 9.Bxc3 Qg6 10.Nf3 Qg3+ 11.Kd2 e6 12.Kc1 Kg8 13.Rhf1 b6 14.Rd4 h5 15.Nh4 Bb7 16.Be1 Qg5+ 17.Kb1 Be7 18.Bd2 Qg3 19.Rxd7
 32/60	04:26	1 993 794 411	7 490 539	+0,36	1. ... d6 2.Rd1+ Ke5 3.Nf3+ Kf6 4.Qxe4 h6 5.0-0 Kf7 6.b4 Kg8 7.b5 Na5 8.Rd3 Bd7 9.Rxc3 e6 10.Rfc1 a6 11.bxa6 Rxa6 12.Qd3 d5 13.Rb1 Be8 14.Rxb7 Rd6 15.Ra7 d4 16.Bxd4 e5 17.Rxa5 Qxa5 18.Nc4 Bg6 19.Qd2 exd4 20.Nxa5 dxc3 21.Qxc3 Rd1+ 22.Ne1 Kh7 23.Nc4 Bd6 24.Nxd6 Rxd6 25.Nf3 Rd1+ 26.Kh2 Re8 27.Qc4 Red8
 32/59	04:26	1 993 794 411	7 490 539	-0,06	1. ... e5 2.Rd1+ Nd4 3.Qf5 Bc5 4.Bxd4 Kc6 5.Bxc5 d5 6.Qf3 Qa5 7.b4 Qxa3 8.Ne2 b6 9.Be7 Qxa2 10.Nxc3 Nxc3 11.Qxc3+ Qc4 12.Qxe5 Ba6 13.Qe6+ Kb7 14.Qd7+ Qc7 15.Qxd5+ Kb8 16.Bg5 Re8+ 17.Be3 Bc4 18.Qd7 Re7 19.Qxc7+ Kxc7 20.Rd4 Bb5 21.Kd2 h6 22.h4 h5 23.Rc1+ Kb7 24.g3 Bc6 25.Kc2 Re6 26.Rf4 Rd8

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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by Paloma » Mon May 27, 2019 12:23 am

Ted, what was the time of your runs?

Maybe to short? Because Vinvin's 4:26 min shows other results.

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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by AdminX » Mon May 27, 2019 1:54 am

Paloma wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:23 am
Ted, what was the time of your runs?

Maybe to short? Because Vinvin's 4:26 min shows other results.
They were all over 30 minutes. Ny MultiPV's were set to 8 lines however.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by Vinvin » Mon May 27, 2019 6:42 am

After 8 hours, e5 hold advantage for black :

Code: Select all

McCain-X3_x64_modern:
...
 50/82	6:57:15	212 844 749 345	8 501 634	+0,29	1. ... d6 2.Rd1+ Ke5 3.Nf3+ Kf6 4.Qxe4 h6 5.0-0 Kf7 6.b4 Kg8 7.b5 Na5 8.Rd3 e5 9.Nc4 Be6 10.Ncxe5 Qe8 11.Ng6 Bf7 12.Qxe8 Bxe8 13.Nxh8 Bxb5 14.Rxc3 Bxf1 15.Kxf1 Kxh8 16.Rc7 Re8 17.Bxa7 Nc6 18.Rxb7 Ra8 19.Be3 Rxa2 20.g3 Kh7 21.h4 Kg6 22.Rb6 Rc2 23.Ne1 Rc4 24.Nd3 Be7 25.Nf4+ Kf5 26.h5 Ne5 27.Nd5 Ke6 28.Rb7 Kxd5 29.Rxe7 g5 30.hxg6 Nxg6 31.Ra7 Ne5 32.Bxh6 Rc2 33.Bf4 Ke6 34.Bxe5 Kxe5 35.Kg2 d5
 51/69	6:57:15	212 844 749 345	8 501 634	-0,16	1. ... e5 2.Rd1+ Nd4 3.Qf5 Kc6 4.Qxe5 d5 5.Qxd4 b6 6.Nf3 cxb2 7.Ne5+ Kb7 8.Qxb2 Qe7 9.Nc2 Qc7 10.Bd4 Bc5 11.Bxc5 Qxc5 12.0-0 Qc3 13.Qxc3 Nxc3 14.Rd3 Re8 15.Nf7 Re7 16.Nd6+ Kc6 17.Rxc3+ Kxd6 18.Rd1 Be6 19.Na3 Rc8 20.Nb5+ Kd7 21.Ra3 a5 22.Nd4 Bf7 23.Rb3 Rb8 24.a4 Ree8 25.Rdb1 Re4 26.Rd1 Rf4 27.Rb5 Rf6 28.Rdb1 Kd6 29.R1b3 Ke5 30.Nf3+ Kd6

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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by Vinvin » Mon May 27, 2019 10:14 am

Paloma wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:23 am
Ted, what was the time of your runs?

Maybe to short? Because Vinvin's 4:26 min shows other results.
Hi !
It's a 4:26 min but with a lot of learning before. Especially to find 1...Ke5 is losing.
I'll post the difference between SF and McCain after 1...Ke5? where SF understand very late that black is losing (because of SF heavy pruning in dangerous positions).

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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by Eduard » Mon May 27, 2019 11:54 am

Thanks Ted! I remember. That was a game against Fritz 8! ;)
That was 18 years ago! It was a nice time, and I had a lot of fun.

In the present time it is no longer possible to win against modern engines like Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini and Lc0!

But I'm not sad about that, no, that's great! It's a pleasure to see how strong the current engines are. That was a reason for me, to be new interested in computer chess.

With great fun I let now runs the engines on the chess servers (playchess and infinitychess).

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all programmers! They are doing great things. Also to teams of Stockfish, Komodo and Lc0: Thanks!

And, keep it up.

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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by zullil » Mon May 27, 2019 5:01 pm




Stockfish-dev says equal:

0.00 10... e5 11. Rd1+ Nd4 12. Qf5 Bc5 13. Bxd4 Kc6 14. Bxc5 d5 15. Qf3 Qa5 16. b4 Qxa3 17. Ne2 Qxa2 18. Nxc3 Qc4 19. Nxd5 Rd8 20. b5+ Kxb5 21. Nc7+ Kc6 22. Rxd8 Bg4 23. Rd6+ Kxc7 24. Qxg4 Qc3+ 25. Kf1 Nxd6 26. Qxg7+ Kc6 27. Bxd6 Qa1+ 28. Ke2 Qb2+ 29. Ke3 Qc3+ 30. Ke2 Qc2+ 31. Ke3 Qc3+ (depth 60, 3:45:29)

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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by jp » Mon May 27, 2019 5:23 pm

Eduard wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:54 am
Thanks Ted! I remember. That was a game against Fritz 8! ;)
Eduard, how did you come up with this gambit line?

Eduard wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:54 am
In the present time it is no longer possible to win against modern engines like Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini and Lc0!
Yes. I don't think anything will make SF like 7...Ke6? (it prefers Kg1 and g6) or 8...Kd5?

After 8. Qg4+, SF gives back the piece with big advantage for Black.
8... Kf7 9. Qxe4 d5 10. Qd3 e5 11. Ne2 h5 12. O-O a6 13. Nb1 g6 14. Qd1 Bf5



15. Ng3 e4 16. Bf4 Qf6 17. Nxf5 gxf5 18. Kh1 Bh6


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Re: Nemeth Gambit Revisited

Post by Vinvin » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:26 pm

Vinvin wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:14 am
Paloma wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:23 am
Ted, what was the time of your runs?

Maybe to short? Because Vinvin's 4:26 min shows other results.
Hi !
It's a 4:26 min but with a lot of learning before. Especially to find 1...Ke5 is losing.
I'll post the difference between SF and McCain after 1...Ke5? where SF understand very late that black is losing (because of SF heavy pruning in dangerous positions).
Here's a nice test position after the variant : 1...Ke5? 2. Nf3+ Kf6 3. Qf4+ Ke6
and here, find 4. Nb5!! cxb2 5. Nbd4+! Nxd4 6. Nxd4+ Kd5 7. O-O! bxa1=Q 8. Rxa1 +-

[D]r1bq1b1r/pp1pp1pp/2n1k3/8/4nQ2/N1p1BN1P/PP3PP1/R3K2R w KQ - 5 4
After some learning :

Code: Select all

Matefinder_190305:
+2,54	4.Nb5 d6 5.Qxe4+ Kd7 6.0-0 cxb2 7.Rab1 a6 8.Nbd4 Ke8 9.Rxb2 Nxd4 10.Nxd4 d5 11.Qh4 Qd6 12.Bf4 Qg6 13.Rc1 Kf7 14.Be5 Kg8 15.Rc7 h6 16.Rb3 Qe8 17.Qf4

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