Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

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Graham Banks
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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:56 pm

Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Because they play Go instead of chess. :P
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Laskos
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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by Laskos » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:18 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:56 pm
Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Because they play Go instead of chess. :P
Agree
:lol:

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Laskos
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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by Laskos » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:19 pm

Ras wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:17 pm
Laskos wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:47 pm
Are you implying that I am weaker than Ke Jie?
Of course, that's why you need a computer to find the blunders.

The same happened in chess: "oohhhh Stockfish is swinging form +3 to 0, he threw away his win, it's soooo obvious." Yeah, sure.
Isn't it a bit offensive to say that I am weaker than Ke Jie?

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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by S.Taylor » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:44 pm

Laskos wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:53 pm
I learned in one-two hours of analysis more than they have learnt in decades of study and practice. I guess they are natively not that gifted. Lack of vitamins.


I would honestly hope that chess players are the most intelligent humans (apart of course from top talmudic scholars).

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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by Ras » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:57 pm

Laskos wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:19 pm
Isn't it a bit offensive to say that I am weaker than Ke Jie?
I'll take that back the day you beat him in an over the board match without computer access. Shouldn't be a problem for you to cut through the Go world where the top professional players are so stupid, right?
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maxdeg
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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by maxdeg » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:02 am

S.Taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:44 pm
Laskos wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:53 pm
I learned in one-two hours of analysis more than they have learnt in decades of study and practice. I guess they are natively not that gifted. Lack of vitamins.


(apart of course from top talmudic scholars).
Might be an idea for you to take that non-self-evident 'truth' and shove it up your south facing Jewish orifice ..

[Moderation] Please save general attacks on religious or ethnic communities for CTF

Raphexon
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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by Raphexon » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:24 am

Laskos wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:42 pm
Hai wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:26 pm
Good to see that Leela changed from 20x256 to 40x256 net, because at the end bigger is better :mrgreen:.
Depends on hardware balance. They don't seem to use CUDA (cuDNN) anywhere, only OpenCL, my speeds are not impressive on my RTX 2070. Might be due to batch sizes used not helping much with cuDNN, I don't know. But Leela's 40x256 latest net beats conclusively FaceBook latest 20x256 net at fixed nodes. Not sure at fixed time, especially LTC (I expect 40b to scale better than 20b).
Of course a bigger net is going to outperform a smaller net at equal node count.
Smaller vs bigger is an issue of quantity (nps) vs quality. And if you remove the variable of quantity then of course the net that's optimized for quality is going to reign supreme.

jp
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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by jp » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:34 am

Raphexon wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:24 am
Of course a bigger net is going to outperform a smaller net at equal node count.
Smaller vs bigger is an issue of quantity (nps) vs quality. And if you remove the variable of quantity then of course the net that's optimized for quality is going to reign supreme.
No, it's not quantity vs quality. It's quantity of one kind versus quantity of a different kind.

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Ovyron
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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by Ovyron » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:45 am

Laskos wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:53 pm
Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?
I don't think "stupid" is the right word to use in this context. Imagine that you and me play a game of chess, some blitz game, and things get very intense, and you are running out of time, I check you with my queen and you move your king and I move her to a square where I can promote a pawn and I beat you.

Then, back at home, you analyze the game calmly with Stockfish, and it points out that queen move was a blunder and you could have captured the queen, but you didn't notice. Would you go to me and say "that queen move you made was really bad, you gave it away, why were you so stupid?" ? even if Stockfish says that you were totally winning anyway? So that queen move and you not seeing that the queen was hanging was my only chance to win, and I did it. How can a winning move be stupid? Who cares about what Stockfish said?

It's the same with Go and these legends, it doesn't matter if optimal moves existed that would have defeated their moves, if no humans (the objective is to beat those humans) would have found them on the board, that's the only thing that matters.

If these are the best human players, and would beat 99% of the rest of people playing Go on the planet, are you asking why is humanity stupid at playing Go? Isn't that like asking why humanity is so stupid at solving mathematical problems that require supercomputers to calculate? Why is humanity so stupid they can't use their bare hands to cut things that a simple pair of scissors can cut? etc.

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Re: Why are super top professional Go players so stupid?

Post by jdart » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:00 pm

Suboptimal moves are very common in GM chess games and losing blunders are not infrequent. This is known for a long time. Good players can be very accurate at times, but being accurate all the time over the whole course of a game is very difficult.

--Jon

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