Where are the funs of Leela?

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ChiefPushesWood
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Full name: Chief PushesWood

Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by ChiefPushesWood » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:35 pm

corres wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:24 pm
Where is your logic?
If "Stockfish is STILL a great engine..." only the posts were silly what said 'end of an era'.
I think there is no any "end of era" only the competition is between developers of Stockfish and the developers of Leela.
We, users are the beneficiary this competition.
Thanks for the developers and their supporters.
MY logic is simple.. It's silly to say it's an end of an era and its just as silly to start a post flaming about a non-consequential 'champions', short time control tournament as if it's a valid refutation.

Just enjoy the fact that there are REALLY great engines out there and you have choices.

Chief

corres
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Location: hungary

Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by corres » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:03 pm

ChiefPushesWood wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:35 pm
corres wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:24 pm
Where is your logic?
If "Stockfish is STILL a great engine..." only the posts were silly what said 'end of an era'.
I think there is no any "end of era" only the competition is between developers of Stockfish and the developers of Leela.
We, users are the beneficiary this competition.
Thanks for the developers and their supporters.
MY logic is simple.. It's silly to say it's an end of an era and its just as silly to start a post flaming about a non-consequential 'champions', short time control tournament as if it's a valid refutation.

Just enjoy the fact that there are REALLY great engines out there and you have choices.

Chief
Please, decide it is an "End of Era" or not.
If it was a silly thing to write about "End of Era" then there was sense to start this post - independently of the TCEC Champions Bonus tournament.
If you think the "End of Era" was a valid statement then we do not agree and this "silly" dispute is superfluous.
I rather would like to read your explanation about causes of Leela's weaker results.
Btw. The thinking time is short for every competitors...
Something any other explanation?

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Laskos
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Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Laskos » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:00 pm

corres wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:03 pm
ChiefPushesWood wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:35 pm
corres wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:24 pm
Where is your logic?
If "Stockfish is STILL a great engine..." only the posts were silly what said 'end of an era'.
I think there is no any "end of era" only the competition is between developers of Stockfish and the developers of Leela.
We, users are the beneficiary this competition.
Thanks for the developers and their supporters.


MY logic is simple.. It's silly to say it's an end of an era and its just as silly to start a post flaming about a non-consequential 'champions', short time control tournament as if it's a valid refutation.

Just enjoy the fact that there are REALLY great engines out there and you have choices.

Chief
Please, decide it is an "End of Era" or not.
If it was a silly thing to write about "End of Era" then there was sense to start this post - independently of the TCEC Champions Bonus tournament.
If you think the "End of Era" was a valid statement then we do not agree and this "silly" dispute is superfluous.
I rather would like to read your explanation about causes of Leela's weaker results.
Btw. The thinking time is short for every competitors...
Something any other explanation?
I guess end of an era was when DeepMind published the preprint with the Chess engine, if not with the Go engine 3 or so years ago. You do realize the breakthrough, don't you? Sure, old engines have their use, in the same sense as agriculture will never disappear because of manufacturing and services.

corres
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Location: hungary

Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by corres » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:10 pm

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:58 pm
An 3000 ELO Engine will performe better against a older version of itself with 2990 ELO than against a different engine with 2990 ELO. Thus it is not a surprise that in this setup some Stockfish engines took the lead.
It depends on the behaviors of those different engines.
As I see basically Leela is weaker against the relative weaker engines than the Stockfish family are.
Another Leela's issue is as the opening position is more further from start position as Leela is more and more weaker. It is a consequence of self-play training what begins from start position.
Last edited by corres on Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

corres
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Location: hungary

Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by corres » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:29 pm

Laskos wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:00 pm
I guess end of an era was when DeepMind published the preprint with the Chess engine, if not with the Go engine 3 or so years ago. You do realize the breakthrough, don't you? Sure, old engines have their use, in the same sense as agriculture will never disappear because of manufacturing and services.
I think we can speech about "End of Era" if developing of somethings (in this case the top AB-type chess
engines) are ended.
But up to now the developing of Stockfish, Komodo, etc. are not ended.
It would be more intelligent to speech about "A new Era Started" at that time - if somebody sticks to "Era".
It would be more practical because Leela can not substitute Stockfish and other top engines in every field of chess.
We will use AB engines also for a long time, I think.

ChiefPushesWood
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by ChiefPushesWood » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:37 pm

corres wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:03 pm
Please, decide it is an "End of Era" or not.
If it was a silly thing to write about "End of Era" then there was sense to start this post - independently of the TCEC Champions Bonus tournament.
If you think the "End of Era" was a valid statement then we do not agree and this "silly" dispute is superfluous.
I rather would like to read your explanation about causes of Leela's weaker results.
Btw. The thinking time is short for every competitors...
Something any other explanation?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here by saying that English comprehension isn't a strong suit for you.

Let me make it plain for you and this is the last I'll say about it...

"End of era talk" = SILLY
"You starting this thread to gloat about Leela under-performing in that tournament as if it's proof of something substantive" = ALSO SILLY

There is no argument here to be had.

Chief

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Laskos
Posts: 9535
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Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Laskos » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:01 pm

corres wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:29 pm
Laskos wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:00 pm
I guess end of an era was when DeepMind published the preprint with the Chess engine, if not with the Go engine 3 or so years ago. You do realize the breakthrough, don't you? Sure, old engines have their use, in the same sense as agriculture will never disappear because of manufacturing and services.
I think we can speech about "End of Era" if developing of somethings (in this case the top AB-type chess
engines) are ended.
But up to now the developing of Stockfish, Komodo, etc. are not ended.
It would be more intelligent to speech about "A new Era Started" at that time - if somebody sticks to "Era".
It would be more practical because Leela can not substitute Stockfish and other top engines in every field of chess.
We will use AB engines also for a long time, I think.
Well, that's what I am saying, agriculture did not disappear and will not disappear anytime soon, but the end of an era of feudalism in Europe happened long ago.

Also, more concretely, with such a rudimentary and still untuned MCTS search, the NN-based engines started to top "productivity". There is little doubt about what lays ahead. 1980-2017 years in CC are gone. This is not like null move reduction or forward pruning was found to be useful.

Dann Corbit
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Dann Corbit » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:23 pm

I think we can all agree that AlphaZero and LC0 have blown the minds of the chess community, and to some extent the entire world community.
There were complaints for a while about the tsunami of messages on those topics on the chess boards.

Whether an Era has ended or not is kind of a simile anyway. What was meant was clearly:
"There is a certain revolution in chess engine approach that may be more successful than anything we have tried before."

Anyway, the original question was, "Where are the funs of Leela?"

My answer is, "Everywhere."
In the programming.
In the results.
In the discussions.
In the mud slinging.
In the knee-bending honorific praise.
In the hand-waving poo-pooing.
In the newspaper stories.
In every nook and cranny.

And we primarily have Matthew Lai to thank for it.
Along with a writhing horde of others.

IMO-YMMV.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Nay Lin Tun
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Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:24 am

The Den of hardcore fans!! ( nearly 500 online) :mrgreen: :P :wink:
Webp.net-resizeimage (1).jpg
Webp.net-resizeimage (1).jpg (179.32 KiB) Viewed 1051 times

corres
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Location: hungary

Re: Where are the funs of Leela?

Post by corres » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:00 am

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:24 am
The Den of hardcore fans!! ( nearly 500 online) Webp.net-resizeimage (1).jpg
For a new-born every fun is new.

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