OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Guenther
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Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by Guenther » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:17 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:52 pm
Guenther wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 pm
Dann Corbit wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:35 pm
Guenther wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:29 pm
1. you need to start later in the opening
I think it is completely irrelevant where you start. A fully closed position is difficult, like locked positions, but some computers can find good answers.
It is totally relevant because with only 2! up to 4 moves you are left with much too much equal moves, which are just a matter of taste/style.
2-4 moves is the current discussion for OKE, it is incomprehensible for me how you can dispute about this.
The whole discussion lacks of logic as most threads here, thus I leave it here.
Most chess positions have 2 to 4 good choices.

...
You completely missunderstood. We are talking about move choices after 2-4 moves not about 2-4 move choices, sigh...
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Dann Corbit
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Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:27 pm

My programs emit this:
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm c4=10; e4=9; d4=9; Nf3=6; e3=3; g3=3;
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Dann Corbit
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Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:28 pm

Guenther wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:17 pm
Dann Corbit wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:52 pm
Guenther wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 pm
Dann Corbit wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:35 pm
Guenther wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:29 pm
1. you need to start later in the opening
I think it is completely irrelevant where you start. A fully closed position is difficult, like locked positions, but some computers can find good answers.
It is totally relevant because with only 2! up to 4 moves you are left with much too much equal moves, which are just a matter of taste/style.
2-4 moves is the current discussion for OKE, it is incomprehensible for me how you can dispute about this.
The whole discussion lacks of logic as most threads here, thus I leave it here.
Most chess positions have 2 to 4 good choices.

...
You completely missunderstood. We are talking about move choices after 2-4 moves not about 2-4 move choices, sigh...
One of us has completely misunderstood.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

noobpwnftw
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Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:10 pm

Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by noobpwnftw » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:39 pm

I have built a database using a slightly modified SF to adjust MultiPV depending on shallow search results.
It now has about 2 billion unique positions, each analyzed with depth >=22 and MultiPV >=5, my experience is that eventually which engine or parameters you use becomes irrelevant - it converges to statistics sooner or later.
One thing important to avoid is "double" selection bias: human games or most game sets are not well distributed among all openings.
Last edited by noobpwnftw on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dann Corbit
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Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:40 pm

Only two positions in the EPD files actually have valid e.p. tags.



All the others are spurious. Because of this, there are more than 1380 duplicates in the file.
About 18% are duplicates.
Attachments
mea-culpa.7z
Ed's EPD files, formed into a common EPD list (called blob.epd) has 9103 EPD records in it. When we strip of the e.p. designations that have no relevance, we end up with 7723 real distinct positions (CleanedEP_blob.epd).
(123.81 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Dann Corbit
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Location: Redmond, WA USA
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Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:44 pm

This one is strange, it is a mate in 2:

Qh4+ g3 Qxg3#

It's a variant on the fool's mate.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Dann Corbit
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
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Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:50 pm

noobpwnftw wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:39 pm
I have built a database using a slightly modified SF to adjust MultiPV depending on shallow search results.
It now has about 2 billion unique positions, each analyzed with depth >=22 and MultiPV >=5, my experience is that eventually which engine or parameters you use becomes irrelevant - it converges to statistics sooner or later.
One thing important to avoid is "double" selection bias: human games or most game sets are not well distributed among all openings.
With over a billion positions analyzed, you can backsolve.
The depth value at the root will be approximately 22 + distance to leaf, (unless the root depth is already greater than this).
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

noobpwnftw
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:10 pm

Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by noobpwnftw » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 pm

The depth value at the root will be approximately 22 + (distance to leaf).
Indeed, but there is still a horizon problem, although the chances of getting something wrong diminishes when depth goes higher.
The search breadth should be considerably wider than vanilla search from root position due to MultiPV at each child.
I use averaging back-propagation of engine eval to refine statistics of each move.

Dann Corbit
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Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 pm

noobpwnftw wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 pm
The depth value at the root will be approximately 22 + (distance to leaf).
Indeed, but there is still a horizon problem, although the chances of getting something wrong diminishes when depth goes higher.
The search breadth should be considerably wider than vanilla search from root position due to MultiPV at each child.
I use averaging back-propagation of engine eval to refine statistics of each move.
Have you done this for European chess or only for Xianqui?
I guess it would make a book that would destroy the Cerebellum version.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

noobpwnftw
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:10 pm

Re: OKE - Opening Knowledge Engines

Post by noobpwnftw » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:10 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 pm
noobpwnftw wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 pm
The depth value at the root will be approximately 22 + (distance to leaf).
Indeed, but there is still a horizon problem, although the chances of getting something wrong diminishes when depth goes higher.
The search breadth should be considerably wider than vanilla search from root position due to MultiPV at each child.
I use averaging back-propagation of engine eval to refine statistics of each move.
Have you done this for European chess or only for Xianqui?
I guess it would make a book that would destroy the Cerebellum version.
I have done both, although I have yet to make an user interface for Chess - online probing via API is already available.

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