Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

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mclane
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by mclane » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:51 pm

Yes. It’s a new paradigm.
And like usual, the mass is not seeing the diamonds in front of them.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

mwyoung
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by mwyoung » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:26 pm

mclane wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:11 pm
Book theory is unimportant.
Moves and plan in a game count.
I still think LC0 versus stockfish is boring,
Stockfish is too stupid.
Let stockfish compete versus Komodo or Houdini. They deserve it,
But LC0 is about chess.
And not about elo shit,
Chess is boring when to evenly high quality players face off.

If stockfish is too stupid why does it beat Komodo and Houdini, does that not make Komodo and Houdini stupider? :shock:

The reason we use elo to measure chess strength. Is because it the best measure we have, and it works pretty darn well. And best of all it helps to filter out ridiculous logic that is in this post. Chess is about winning chess, no matter how you win. And that is what elo measures.
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by mclane » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:39 pm

For YOU chess is about winning, no matter how you win,
For ME chess is not about winning, it is about HOW you win.

If for you chess is about winning chess, why don’t you let stockfish play against itself with thrice as much computation time ?
That would be enough to win. And since you are not interested in HOW a win is done, it would fit all your needs.


Answer me a question please. If chess is all about winning, no matter how, why do most people write down the game score and save it into a PGN, if only the results is important, such as 1:0, 0:1 or 1/2, why do they write down all the moves until the game is over if the way is not the target ?
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

mwyoung
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by mwyoung » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:57 pm

mclane wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:39 pm
For YOU chess is about winning, no matter how you win,
For ME chess is not about winning, it is about HOW you win.

If for you chess is about winning chess, why don’t you let stockfish play against itself with thrice as much computation time ?
That would be enough to win. And since you are not interested in HOW a win is done, it would fit all your needs.


Answer me a question please. If chess is all about winning, no matter how, why do most people write down the game score and save it into a PGN, if only the results is important, such as 1:0, 0:1 or 1/2, why do they write down all the moves until the game is over if the way is not the target ?
Chess is about winning, chess. And Chess has rules. And to win at chess you want to know why you lost. Do you play tournament chess...
What is your point. You play chess to lose as long as you look good losing :lol:
And this is not even the context of your post.

Article 8: The recording of the moves
8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his
opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in
the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the
competition.
It is forbidden to write the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw
according to Article 9.2, or 9.3 or adjourning a game according to the Guidelines of
Adjourned Games point 1.a.
A player may reply to his opponent’s move before recording it, if he so wishes. He must
record his previous move before making another.
Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet. (See Appendix C.13)
12
If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter,
may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the
arbiter in an equitable way.
8.2 The scoresheet shall be visible to the arbiter throughout the game.
8.3 The scoresheets are the property of the organisers of the event.
8.4 If a player has less than five minutes left on his clock at some stage in a period and does
not have additional time of 30 seconds or more added with each move, then for the
remainder of the period he is not obliged to meet the requirements of Article 8.1.
Immediately after one flag has fallen the player must update his scoresheet completely
before moving a piece on the chessboard.
8.5 a. If neither player is required to keep score under Article 8.4, the arbiter or an
assistant should try to be present and keep score. In this case, immediately after
one flag has fallen, the arbiter shall stop the clocks. Then both players shall update
their scoresheets, using the arbiter’s or the opponent’s scoresheet.
b. If only one player is not required to keep score under Article 8.4, he must, as soon
as either flag has fallen, update his scoresheet completely before moving a piece on
the chessboard. Provided it is the player’s move, he may use his opponent’s
scoresheet, but must return it before making a move.
c. If no complete scoresheet is available, the players must reconstruct the game on a
second chessboard under the control of the arbiter or an assistant. He shall first
record the actual game position, clock times and the number of moves made, if this
information is available, before reconstruction takes place.
8.6 If the scoresheets cannot be brought up to date showing that a player has overstepped
the allotted time, the next move made shall be considered as the first of the following
time period, unless there is evidence that more moves have been made.
8.7 At the conclusion of the game both players shall sign both scoresheets, indicating the
result of the game. Even if incorrect, this result shall stand, unless the arbiter decides
otherwise.
Last edited by mwyoung on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ovyron
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by Ovyron » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:59 pm

corres wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:35 am
What is/was your CC Elo?
2199.

I guess now it's the time all my credibility goes down the drain because if all my claims were true I'd surely perform better. I'll claim that with everything that is available today it's really hard to win corr chess games, even Stockfish at Depth 40 is enough to save a draw in the most seemingly advantageous positions. And a problem with ICCF ratings is that they put you against people close to your ELO. If I was put against 2400 rated people exclusively, my CC elo would be much higher, since my performance is positive against them, but all the draws against people around 2150 elo drag me down, because it's just as hard to beat them.
todd wrote:It is understandable you do not want to post your analysis in the main lines of a popular opening.

However, how about some lines that are not played as often in engine tournaments?

Can you show a path to advantage for black after any or all of:

a) 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 (with white intending to play the variation 4...d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Bd3 Nd5 9. Nf3 - 9. h4 is also interesting but finding an advantage for black after Nf3 would be more astounding to me)

b) 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 (black can equalize without too much trouble, but I'd be seriously impressed to find a way to be better!)

c) 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 (similar to b but I'd be even more surprised to find a path to more than equality here for black)
I think that falls outside of the scope of this thread (where I've been claiming you should focus on the relevant chess lines instead of generic chess lines, so if it's "not played as often in engine tournaments" that means the line is generic), but, sure, I'll see what I can do about those lines and we can discuss them in a new thread that I'll create.
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mclane
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by mclane » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:08 am

We do not need the pgn if only the results count. It would be enough to write down the result 1:0, 0:1 or 1/2 if elo is the target.

The game score information is unimportant if the target is winning.


If the target is the result, we also would not need to watch a soccer game, a tennis match or a car race.
Only write down the final result and enjoy the result without watching the game/match itself.

Study the elo lists without following the games themselves.

I highly doubt that the people would only be interested in the results. Without the HOW it is / was done.


How did Fischer win ? Oh 6:2, 10:0, 7:1.

That's enough to create the elo list. No need to watch the games. Write down the results and enjoy them.

Here another result for you: 89 – 56 – 89

That's Marylin Monroe.

No need to watch the movies . Enjoy the results.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

Uri Blass
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:29 am

mclane wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:08 am
We do not need the pgn if only the results count. It would be enough to write down the result 1:0, 0:1 or 1/2 if elo is the target.

The game score information is unimportant if the target is winning.


If the target is the result, we also would not need to watch a soccer game, a tennis match or a car race.
Only write down the final result and enjoy the result without watching the game/match itself.

Study the elo lists without following the games themselves.

I highly doubt that the people would only be interested in the results. Without the HOW it is / was done.


How did Fischer win ? Oh 6:2, 10:0, 7:1.

That's enough to create the elo list. No need to watch the games. Write down the results and enjoy them.

Here another result for you: 89 – 56 – 89

That's Marylin Monroe.

No need to watch the movies . Enjoy the results.
The game score information is clearly important even if the only target is winning because you want to learn from your mistakes in order to have better chances to win in the next game.

Dann Corbit
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:29 am

All the same, there is a point of interest here.
We do not onlly wish to understand the result.
We wish (perhaps even more so) to understand the path to the result.

Most of the time, I know by statistics which move is best for a given position. So when I analyze it, I do not care about what but instead why.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by corres » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:16 am

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:59 pm
corres wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:35 am
What is/was your CC Elo?
2199.

I guess now it's the time all my credibility goes down the drain because if all my claims were true I'd surely perform better. I'll claim that with everything that is available today it's really hard to win corr chess games, even Stockfish at Depth 40 is enough to save a draw in the most seemingly advantageous positions. And a problem with ICCF ratings is that they put you against people close to your ELO. If I was put against 2400 rated people exclusively, my CC elo would be much higher, since my performance is positive against them, but all the draws against people around 2150 elo drag me down, because it's just as hard to beat them.
Thanks.
I agree you nowadays to win corr chess games it is a hard task because everybody use top chess engines with powerful PC.
But ICCF holds open competitions too where you can prove the outstanding of your opening book and method of analyzing.
I think if you only have a PC with four cores you would use it with a (dual) RTX 2080 Ti and Leele to get chance for higher rating.

corres
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Re: Whatever is current - Amazing Leela

Post by corres » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:23 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:29 am
All the same, there is a point of interest here.
We do not onlly wish to understand the result.
We wish (perhaps even more so) to understand the path to the result.
Most of the time, I know by statistics which move is best for a given position. So when I analyze it, I do not care about what but instead why.
I agree but the statistics may change sometimes drastically when a variation was subverted.
Last edited by corres on Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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