Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Post Reply
Chessqueen
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am
Full name: Nancy M Pichardo

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Chessqueen » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:47 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:41 pm
What about removing rook + two minor pieces for queen. Or remove rook and bishop for queen (no bishop pair for engine if possible).



The side that has the Queen remove has a slight disadvantage by as little as 1.5 point, but not enough for a human to beat Komodo :shock:

lkaufman
Posts: 3495
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by lkaufman » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:42 pm

Nordlandia wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:41 pm
What about removing rook + two minor pieces for queen. Or remove rook and bishop for queen (no bishop pair for engine if possible).





Alternatively this





Or maybe the bizarre (human playing black.

We gave queen for rook and knight odds to MVL (10' + 2") and Komodo won. It's better to use knights rather than bishops for handicaps because you don't have to worry about bishop pairs or about players putting all their pawns on one color. We also gave queen for two minors to GMs Benjamin and Lenderman and to FM Larry Gilden in slow (45' + 15") games, Komodo winning most, losing none. In general the idea (to me anyway) of handicap play is to change the game as little as possible while equalizing chances, so removing four or more chessmen, or putting extra pawns in the middle, are not suitable. Overall, I think that the progression exchange, exchange and move, exchange and "a" pawn, exchange and "a" pawn and move, knight odds is the most reasonable progression of handicaps, except the gap between the last two is rather large. Exchange odds was part of the handicap tradition, Staunton played a long series of recorded games with one opponent at that handicap. When Paulsen tried to get Morphy to play a rematch after having lost convincingly in normal chess, Morphy proposed f7 handicap. Paulsen wrote back that he had analyzed it and didn't consider it to be a suitable handicap; he was trying to get Morphy to play with just a score handicap, and tried to downplay f7. Of course it is a huge handicap and Paulsen was not being very honest in that argument. Anyway, Morphy replied that if Paulsen didn't like f7, Morphy would agree to play him at rook for knight. But Paulsen didn't agree.
Komodo rules!

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2342
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Nordlandia » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:43 pm

This is within +2.15 - 2.5 threshold. Might be feasible setup. Human black.


Gary Internet
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:09 pm

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Gary Internet » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:37 pm

Larry - In the matches the Komodo has played in the last 10 years, what hardware has it been running on?

I'm just interested to know because I'm guessing that almost any chess engine from 2014 onward, running on a single core with no tablebases would still crush any human.

Regarding the level of chess engine needed to give a human game a good game with no odds, what about something like Chessmaster 9000 (The King) on full strength?

GM Larry Christiansen played it in 2002 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfHgodOgwzs

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2342
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Nordlandia » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:10 pm

Gary Internet: i like the Chessmaster proposal :)

I'd rather choose Chessmaster 8000 from year 2000 against a GM opponent. Chessmaster 8000 was released in 2000, while 9000 was released in 2004. I remember i purched one copy of CM 9000 in Dombås in Norway on summer holiday, it has to be either 2005 or 2006. Back then participated in the Norway championship (NM i Sjakk).

CM 8000 is allegedly rated 2800 +/- (Chessmaster 8000 Review - GameSpot - REVIEWED ON PC / 12 DEC 2000)
Last edited by Nordlandia on Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lkaufman
Posts: 3495
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by lkaufman » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:28 pm

Gary Internet wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:37 pm
Larry - In the matches the Komodo has played in the last 10 years, what hardware has it been running on?

I'm just interested to know because I'm guessing that almost any chess engine from 2014 onward, running on a single core with no tablebases would still crush any human.

Regarding the level of chess engine needed to give a human game a good game with no odds, what about something like Chessmaster 9000 (The King) on full strength?

GM Larry Christiansen played it in 2002 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfHgodOgwzs
Komodo has generally run on 20 or 24 core xeons, or more recently on a faster 16 core I9, except for special games and matches where hardware was limited to single core as part of the handicap. Chessmaster 9000 seems to be too old to find on the CCRL blitz list, what list if any is it on? I think you can estimate the FIDE rating for any engine playing normal chess at standard time limits by taking the CCRL 40/40 rating and adding maybe 100 elo to that. Because they use BayesElo, their ratings are already contracted towards the mean so it's not so vital to make adjustments to this for human equivalence. So plenty of modern engines on a single core should beat even the amazing Carlsen at standard time limit, but far from "almost any".
Having nearly finished my newest opening book, and watching the games today from Croatia, I can't escape the feeling that normal chess already is handicap chess. Black gets in serious trouble in the opening quite often even at the highest level, even Carlsen, only Carlsen seems to be able to give this handicap to the rest of the world. White may not be winning by force, but playing Black is most certainly giving a handicap.
Komodo rules!

carldaman
Posts: 1674
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by carldaman » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:46 pm

CM9000 shows up on the CCRL 40/40 list, you can check it out.

Vinvin
Posts: 4283
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Vinvin » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:30 pm

carldaman wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:46 pm
CM9000 shows up on the CCRL 40/40 list, you can check it out.

Code: Select all

Chessmaster 11 Aiglos II	2700	 
Chessmaster 11	2664	 
CM9000 Default	2639	
CM10th Default	2632	

lkaufman
Posts: 3495
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by lkaufman » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:17 am

Vinvin wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:30 pm
carldaman wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:46 pm
CM9000 shows up on the CCRL 40/40 list, you can check it out.

Code: Select all

Chessmaster 11 Aiglos II	2700	 
Chessmaster 11	2664	 
CM9000 Default	2639	
CM10th Default	2632	
Thanks, I wrongly assumed that if it wasn't on the 40/4 list, it wouldn't be on the 40/40. So if I'm right about adding 100 for FIDE comparisons at standard time limit, only the world's top twenty would be favored against it. Of course we didn't specify the processor or opening book, these things matter. Anyway it is about a class weaker than the Arasan 18.0 which I've been using in my handicap matches. Probably this means that Komodo vs CM 9000 both on one thread would be a close match at knight odds at some rapid (not blitz) time control. But it doesn't follow that we could give knight odds at that time control to world number 20 human.
Komodo rules!

Uri Blass
Posts: 8502
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Why there is no interest in Computer with odds Vs Humans match?

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:06 am

lkaufman wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:17 am
Vinvin wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:30 pm
carldaman wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:46 pm
CM9000 shows up on the CCRL 40/40 list, you can check it out.

Code: Select all

Chessmaster 11 Aiglos II	2700	 
Chessmaster 11	2664	 
CM9000 Default	2639	
CM10th Default	2632	
Thanks, I wrongly assumed that if it wasn't on the 40/4 list, it wouldn't be on the 40/40. So if I'm right about adding 100 for FIDE comparisons at standard time limit, only the world's top twenty would be favored against it. Of course we didn't specify the processor or opening book, these things matter. Anyway it is about a class weaker than the Arasan 18.0 which I've been using in my handicap matches. Probably this means that Komodo vs CM 9000 both on one thread would be a close match at knight odds at some rapid (not blitz) time control. But it doesn't follow that we could give knight odds at that time control to world number 20 human.
I think that the only way to know is simply by playing.
It may be interesting to have knight odd rating list for chess engines.

It is possible that there are engines that are better in converting a knight advantage to a win and not better in normal chess.

CM is a class weaker than arasan18 in normal chess.
We do not know if it is a class weaker than arasan18 in knight odd games.

Post Reply