buying a new computer

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Zenmastur
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:16 am

Laskos wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:03 am

Not sure about what you say. With this reasoning, Uri would better buy 3000 series 32 core Threadripper with 2080ti Super.

Punctually: 12 core 3900X and 16 core 3950X.

Base clock is significantly (300MHz) higher with 12 core 3900X. I am skeptical the clocks can be equalized when the Boost is stabilized. I guess a gap of 200MHz will remain, or 5% in speed.
L2 + L3 cache size per core is significantly higher on 12 core 3900X compared to 16 core 3950X. IPCs are the same.

All in all, single core performance might be about 10% better with 12 core CPU, and that affects Leela speed, for example (and many other applications). And multi-core performance of 16 core CPU with Stockfish (NPS) is probably no more than 25% higher than that of 12 core CPU.
$750 for 3950X is pricey to my taste, actually a bit overpriced. I am replying to Uri from "a poor guy perspective" thinking of some limited budget. And spending $250+ more for a dubious all-in-all advantage of having 20% faster Stockfish, but 5% slower Leela and 10% slower single core applications is an issue for me.
Well,

First, the Threadripper 2990WX has the disadvantage of haveing only the same memory band width as the 2950X because the two extra chiplets don't have memory controllers on them. Therefore all memory access by cores on those chips must be satisfied by the infinity fabric between chips and eventually uses up bandwidth that would be available to the chip satisfying the request. So not only does each core have half the bandwidth of the 2950X half of the memory accesses will also incurs the infinity fabric latency. Even though the 2990WX has terrible memory bandwidth per core comparatively speaking, it still does relatively well for AB chess engines because they don't require a great deal of bandwidth to start with. It would be much faster for AB chess engines if all chiplets had a memory controller on them. I haven't tried to analyze the new Threadrippers yet because I have no data on them. So, determining if they would be a good buy for this application will have to wait to see what thy do with them. The could "fix" the problem with the 2990WX in the 3990WX in which case I'm pretty sure it will be the better buy depending on cost of course. We will see when the time comes.

Therefore a direct comparison between the older generation crippled 32 core cpu and the new generation non-cripped cpu is flawed.

Second, the chiplets are pre-binned by AMD before placing them into a cpu. AMD has as much as stated that the best binning chiplets will go on the higher priced SKU's such as the Ryzen 9 3950X. This means that the coolest running and fastest chiplets will be found on the 3950X. This is why thermal throttling will be less than one might expect. By adjusting the power target you can virtually guarantee that the cores will be boosted to their thermal limit. Since AMD sets the thermal limit based on boost clock and NOT base clock, arbitrarily discounting the boost clock would be a mistake. I'm not saying that you will be running all cores at the boost clock with out over-clocking. But I am saying it will not be averaging just the base clock unless it's in an adverse thermal environment. From what I've seen, with reasonably good cooling, I expect average clocks on all cores while running an AB engine to be higher than the base clock of the 3900X and it could be significantly higher. This is based on running power virus software on all cores (this draws significantly more power than ANY chess engine) and still maintaining average clocks above base clock speed.

I'm going to wait and see before I buy, but that's what I'm expecting.

I Think you are wrong on how much you discount the 16 core based on heat throttling. But time will tell. Theoretically, if you keep the CPU cool and supply enough power (e.g. increase the power target 50%) all cores can maintain boost clock indefinitely. Since the boost clock is greater on the 3950X by virtue of chiplet binning I think it will be a far superior CPU for running chess engine.

Regards,

Forrest
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Zenmastur
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:04 am

mwyoung wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:22 am

Uri needs to give a budget on the system. You will always pay more for less performance as you reach the BLEEDING EDGE of performance in the market place.

But you can optimize your system. When you know what you are will to spend on a new system. The biggest question in building a Chess computer system today in regards to price. Is how important is it to the build in running NN Engines Fast...
I agree it's going to be hard to optimize a system with out knowing the budget. Not knowing how important NN engines are compared to AB engines is an important factor if you are trying to either optimize for both or try to balance strength between the two types of engines. On the other hand, you can upgrade one type with out too much affect on the other. I.E. upgrade the video card (or add video cards without changing the MB or CPU etc). So, the initial system may be a stepping stone to the final system depending on which is more important now.


One other note to my previous post about non X570 motherboards. Easiest to do it in a graphic

Image

The data should always be checked at the manufacture's web site BEFORE buying!

Regards,

Forrest
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Uri Blass
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: buying a new computer

Post by Uri Blass » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:40 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:28 pm
Uri Blass wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:58 pm
Thanks for the all the replies.

Note that I do not understand much about hardware.
I read basically the following information when I do not know exactly what is the meaning of everything.

1)CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X 12 Core or AMD 16 Core Ryzen 9(not sure if 16 cores are faster and how much faster)
2)GPU: NVidia RTX 2070 Super
3)32 GB DDR4 RAM
4)a good CPU cooler
5)large case
6)many fans,
7)PCIe 4.0 M.2 drive.
8)new AMD motherboards. 5.0 GB/s
Don't forget a BIG power supply. Those GPU cards drink electricity with a slurp and a burp. I would say a KW is minimum,
The motherboards that support PCie 4.0 cost a lot. Figure 700 dollars.
Since you play correspondence chess you might consider 64 or even 128 GB of RAM. I read that the 3600 speed ram performs about as well and is cheaper
I played correspondence games in the past but not now.
The reason for buying new computer is analysis and not playing correspondence games.

Note that I do not know how to build a new computer from components so paying for building the computer is part of the price.

I do not plan to pay more than 2500 dollars for all the system.
I may reconsider it only if I get significantly better performance per dollar(if I get something twice faster for 3000 dollars relative to 2500 dollars then I may prefer to spend 3000 dollars but if I get only 20% speed improvement or slightly more than it then I am not going to do it).

I would like to know what is the best performance per dollar that I can get(assuming I pay at least 1000 dollars)

I gave some minimal price otherwise best performance per dollar is simply to pay nothing and continue to use the old computer that I have for more than 5 years that give me near
2.5M nodes per second for stockfish with 3 cores in the opening position(I have 4 cores but generally I use 3 in order to be able to do other things in the computer without a significant slowdown)

Zenmastur
Posts: 827
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: buying a new computer

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:44 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:40 am

I played correspondence games in the past but not now.
The reason for buying new computer is analysis and not playing correspondence games.

Note that I do not know how to build a new computer from components so paying for building the computer is part of the price.

I do not plan to pay more than 2500 dollars for all the system.
I may reconsider it only if I get significantly better performance per dollar(if I get something twice faster for 3000 dollars relative to 2500 dollars then I may prefer to spend 3000 dollars but if I get only 20% speed improvement or slightly more than it then I am not going to do it).

I would like to know what is the best performance per dollar that I can get(assuming I pay at least 1000 dollars)

I gave some minimal price otherwise best performance per dollar is simply to pay nothing and continue to use the old computer that I have for more than 5 years that give me near
2.5M nodes per second for stockfish with 3 cores in the opening position(I have 4 cores but generally I use 3 in order to be able to do other things in the computer without a significant slowdown)
Then I suggest you buy one from a local computer store. I assume you aren't in the US which means that prices for the same system are likely to be higher than they would be here. Buying a prebuilt system from a local store seems best if that's possible. Even a lowly Ryzen 5 3600 (6 cores – 12 threads) is likely to get you to the 15M to 20M nps range. ( I can build one from scratch for $800 to $1000 US.) This will likely be the best value per dollar. If you were building it yourself I would recommend a much higher end CPU because your time building it adds more value. With a pre-built system they charge premiums for better hardware which changes the point at which the best value is obtained. It would be best to find a store that will list all the important parts included in the build. Specifically you want to know the EXACT CPU used, the amount of RAM, it's speed and CAS latency. Additionally, if you plan on messing with NNs engine you want to know which video card is used as this will affect the NN engine speed and strength.

If you want a better system than a Ryzen 7 (8core 16-thread in the 20M – 30M nps range) it would be better if you can find a shop that will build to your specification with out charging a huge premium. That way you can get a list of preferred parts from anyone and then let them assemble it for you. This gives you absolute control over the parts that will make a difference in “YOUR” application. But for a low end system like a Ryzen 3600 it will be cheaper to just buy a pre-built unit.

So first I would look for stores near you, see what they have, what they cost and what components they have in them (CPU, memory/memory speed, and video card model) then report back. Who knows maybe you can find a reasonabley priced Ryzen 9 3900X system with in your budget range.

Regards,

Forrest
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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Laskos
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by Laskos » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:21 am

I think Uri can afford at most $100 for someone to build his system, if he is ready to pay a total of at most $2500. The cooling issue, the large case and many fans, can hardly be addressed properly on the shelves of the store. They rarely see more intensive users than video-gamers, and "we" are a bit different animal :lol:.

mwyoung
Posts: 2078
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by mwyoung » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:01 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:44 am
Uri Blass wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:40 am

I played correspondence games in the past but not now.
The reason for buying new computer is analysis and not playing correspondence games.

Note that I do not know how to build a new computer from components so paying for building the computer is part of the price.

I do not plan to pay more than 2500 dollars for all the system.
I may reconsider it only if I get significantly better performance per dollar(if I get something twice faster for 3000 dollars relative to 2500 dollars then I may prefer to spend 3000 dollars but if I get only 20% speed improvement or slightly more than it then I am not going to do it).

I would like to know what is the best performance per dollar that I can get(assuming I pay at least 1000 dollars)

I gave some minimal price otherwise best performance per dollar is simply to pay nothing and continue to use the old computer that I have for more than 5 years that give me near
2.5M nodes per second for stockfish with 3 cores in the opening position(I have 4 cores but generally I use 3 in order to be able to do other things in the computer without a significant slowdown)
Then I suggest you buy one from a local computer store. I assume you aren't in the US which means that prices for the same system are likely to be higher than they would be here. Buying a prebuilt system from a local store seems best if that's possible. Even a lowly Ryzen 5 3600 (6 cores – 12 threads) is likely to get you to the 15M to 20M nps range. ( I can build one from scratch for $800 to $1000 US.) This will likely be the best value per dollar. If you were building it yourself I would recommend a much higher end CPU because your time building it adds more value. With a pre-built system they charge premiums for better hardware which changes the point at which the best value is obtained. It would be best to find a store that will list all the important parts included in the build. Specifically you want to know the EXACT CPU used, the amount of RAM, it's speed and CAS latency. Additionally, if you plan on messing with NNs engine you want to know which video card is used as this will affect the NN engine speed and strength.

If you want a better system than a Ryzen 7 (8core 16-thread in the 20M – 30M nps range) it would be better if you can find a shop that will build to your specification with out charging a huge premium. That way you can get a list of preferred parts from anyone and then let them assemble it for you. This gives you absolute control over the parts that will make a difference in “YOUR” application. But for a low end system like a Ryzen 3600 it will be cheaper to just buy a pre-built unit.

So first I would look for stores near you, see what they have, what they cost and what components they have in them (CPU, memory/memory speed, and video card model) then report back. Who knows maybe you can find a reasonabley priced Ryzen 9 3900X system with in your budget range.

Regards,

Forrest
I guess if you just refuse to buy a screw driver set. And order your parts online. And you just want to waste money to buy a POS for the store with low quality parts, and with a huge markup in price. Buy a computer from the store.

Just never open the computer. To see the build quality, and the crap parts you payed for with your hard earned money.

Ignorance is Bliss :shock:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
take on me. Foes 0.

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MikeB
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Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: buying a new computer

Post by MikeB » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:24 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:44 am
Uri Blass wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:40 am

I played correspondence games in the past but not now.
The reason for buying new computer is analysis and not playing correspondence games.

Note that I do not know how to build a new computer from components so paying for building the computer is part of the price.

I do not plan to pay more than 2500 dollars for all the system.
I may reconsider it only if I get significantly better performance per dollar(if I get something twice faster for 3000 dollars relative to 2500 dollars then I may prefer to spend 3000 dollars but if I get only 20% speed improvement or slightly more than it then I am not going to do it).

I would like to know what is the best performance per dollar that I can get(assuming I pay at least 1000 dollars)

I gave some minimal price otherwise best performance per dollar is simply to pay nothing and continue to use the old computer that I have for more than 5 years that give me near
2.5M nodes per second for stockfish with 3 cores in the opening position(I have 4 cores but generally I use 3 in order to be able to do other things in the computer without a significant slowdown)
Then I suggest you buy one from a local computer store. I assume you aren't in the US which means that prices for the same system are likely to be higher than they would be here. Buying a prebuilt system from a local store seems best if that's possible. Even a lowly Ryzen 5 3600 (6 cores – 12 threads) is likely to get you to the 15M to 20M nps range. ( I can build one from scratch for $800 to $1000 US.) This will likely be the best value per dollar. If you were building it yourself I would recommend a much higher end CPU because your time building it adds more value. With a pre-built system they charge premiums for better hardware which changes the point at which the best value is obtained. It would be best to find a store that will list all the important parts included in the build. Specifically you want to know the EXACT CPU used, the amount of RAM, it's speed and CAS latency. Additionally, if you plan on messing with NNs engine you want to know which video card is used as this will affect the NN engine speed and strength.

If you want a better system than a Ryzen 7 (8core 16-thread in the 20M – 30M nps range) it would be better if you can find a shop that will build to your specification with out charging a huge premium. That way you can get a list of preferred parts from anyone and then let them assemble it for you. This gives you absolute control over the parts that will make a difference in “YOUR” application. But for a low end system like a Ryzen 3600 it will be cheaper to just buy a pre-built unit.

So first I would look for stores near you, see what they have, what they cost and what components they have in them (CPU, memory/memory speed, and video card model) then report back. Who knows maybe you can find a reasonabley priced Ryzen 9 3900X system with in your budget range.

Regards,

Forrest
Thanks for your posts Forrest, you appear to be very well informed.

mwyoung
Posts: 2078
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Re: buying a new computer

Post by mwyoung » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:07 pm

How to build your own faster, cheaper, better computer.
1. https://pcpartpicker.com/
2. Order your parts
3. Put the lego parts together. It is that easy....
4. Load the drivers and O/S


Sample configuration and price if you build the system yourself. A very nice chess computer for under $1500 with great quality parts. And head room to Overclock the CPU and GPU. A good CPU cooler is free with this CPU.

Base Total: $1468.84
Mail-in Rebates: -$20.00
Total: $1448.84

Nice Chess Comupter.jpg
Nice Chess Comupter.jpg (120.57 KiB) Viewed 1307 times
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
take on me. Foes 0.

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MikeB
Posts: 3933
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: buying a new computer

Post by MikeB » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:53 pm

mwyoung wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:07 pm
How to build your own faster, cheaper, better computer.
1. https://pcpartpicker.com/
2. Order your parts
3. Put the lego parts together. It is that easy....
4. Load the drivers and O/S


Sample configuration and price if you build the system yourself. A very nice chess computer for under $1500 with great quality parts. And head room to Overclock the CPU and GPU. A good CPU cooler is free with this CPU.

Base Total: $1468.84
Mail-in Rebates: -$20.00
Total: $1448.84


Nice Chess Comupter.jpg
Good to know - thanks!

Dann Corbit
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:02 pm

I have heard a lot of people say you don't need a big power supply.
Experience tells me it is often a mistake to skimp there.

Suppose, for instance, that later you decide to put in two very high end Nvidia or AMD GPU cards to run LC0 because a new release has given a 50% strength boost compared to the old 2080 cards.

Suppose you decide to add a large number of disk drives so that you can store (for instance) new Syzygy DTM50 7 man files.

Or maybe you want to add a ton of RAM so you can build them.

All these things take power. The difference in price between a 650 watt power supply and a 1000 watt power supply is not very much.
I don't very much like tearing my machine apart and putting it back together.
So put in a big enough one to start with.
IMO-YMMV.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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