WCCC 2019 Macau..

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supersharp77
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by supersharp77 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:12 pm

supersharp77 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:58 pm
Could you report with a corrected PGN? this one gets hung up on the imporperly coded 4.cxd move. Claims of being abe to beat any person or program are best settied with real examples.

Note, most of the WCCC participants do play using remote machines. Ther is something nice about meeting people in person.

Mark
[/quote]
Searched and searched and it seems they never posted a complete games pgn (for obvious in house reasons) spent lots of time transcribing that game (it was quite long) but with mixed results...games can be viewed at

http://view.livechesscloud.com/7c104c94 ... f22a1880d0

Thx AR :) :wink:
[/quote]

https://icga.org/wp-content/uploads/201 ... 8.pgn_.zip

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Guenther
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by Guenther » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:45 am

Current foe list count : [97]
http://rwbc-chess.de/chronology.htm

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Ovyron
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by Ovyron » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:02 am

hgm wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:15 am
A few games played over the internet can hadly be called an event. Anyone can do that whenever he likes, and the interest to participate is about zero. (This is fact: it has been tried.) Furthermore, it seems wide open to fraud.
The only thing I'm critiquing is the name "world champion", for something clearly not the best in the world, not by far.

Specially as people that don't know about this would believe the computer chess world champion is like world champions in other disciplines, so they'll be misled into thinking this champion is actually the best thing humanity as a whole has produced.

Even at some point, a professional chess game reviewer that makes it for a living (Kingscrusher) had no idea that Stockfish was the strongest thing around, and people all around the world continue buying chess engines that claim to be world champions because they don't know better, so we really need a way to make the public know the truth, and it's as easy as stopping pretending this is a world championship.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

peter
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by peter » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:21 am

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:02 am
The only thing I'm critiquing is the name "world champion", for something clearly not the best in the world, not by far.
Agreed.
Especially having in mind, it's called ICGA- WCCC. That would make one think, it would be something even more "official". In boxing there are different associations, so there can be more than one WC at a time, in computer- chess we have ICGA only, so a title granted by this organisation could be thought to weigh even more than e.g. TCEC-titles do, even if there is much more competitive meaning in TCEC then in ICGA- tournaments of course, latter yet called WCCC.

But I think, if ICGA would stop calling their events like they do, there would be even less competitors paying such costs,to me worst thing anyhow is travelling to Macao for such a fun- tournament. That isn't of any political correctness anymore in our times of climate change, to say the least.

Yet that could be said about electricity- and hardware- time- waste with events like TCEC too.
:(
Peter.

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hgm
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by hgm » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:02 am
The only thing I'm critiquing is the name "world champion", for something clearly not the best in the world, not by far.

Specially as people that don't know about this would believe the computer chess world champion is like world champions in other disciplines, so they'll be misled into thinking this champion is actually the best thing humanity as a whole has produced.

Even at some point, a professional chess game reviewer that makes it for a living (Kingscrusher) had no idea that Stockfish was the strongest thing around, and people all around the world continue buying chess engines that claim to be world champions because they don't know better, so we really need a way to make the public know the truth, and it's as easy as stopping pretending this is a world championship.
This is because you mistake it to be a World Championship for engines. While in fact it is a World Championship for programmers / book builders / hardware constructors. If anything is amiss it is the notion that when you download an engine and are running it on your run-of-the-mill PC, you are doing "Computer Chess". That is about the same as watching football on TV, and thinking you are a great sportsman just because the team you root for won.

As a good example: the World Championship Formula I racing isn't necessarily won by the best driver. Constructing the best car is even more important. Those complaining about that just haven't understood what it is about.

If people don't know what the strongest engine is, it is just because they are stupid or lazy. The information is everywhere, for those taking the trouble to look for it. I don't think the WCCC contributes any to that; if it would not exist uninformed people would simply end up with the commercial engine with the largest marketing budget (i.e. Fritz).

The phrase "clearly not the best by far" is also quite dubious. For one, when you need hundreds of games to determine the Elo difference with any confidence, a more accurate description would be "for all intents and purposes undistinguishably strong". But the LeelaZero business has shown us that these engines have huge blind spots, and really only master one tiny aspect of chess. Making it rather doubtful that the Elo difference has any real meaning.

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Steve Maughan
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by Steve Maughan » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:13 pm

hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
This is because you mistake it to be a World Championship for engines. While in fact it is a World Championship for programmers / book builders / hardware constructors. If anything is amiss it is the notion that when you download an engine and are running it on your run-of-the-mill PC, you are doing "Computer Chess". That is about the same as watching football on TV, and thinking you are a great sportsman just because the team you root for won.
Absolutely agree!!

I took part in 2015 and had an brilliant time. It's wonderful to play over a real board and to chat with the programmer / operator on the other side. Let's face it, we all have a super-geeky hobby shared by few. The WCCC is an opportunity to meet other who take the same sort of delight in computer chess. If you have created an engine I'd highly recommend entering just for the experience and fun.

Steve
http://www.chessprogramming.net - Maverick Chess Engine

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hgm
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by hgm » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:04 pm

The problem of course being that there are very few people here that have done that. Hardly any racing-car constructors in this forum section. Just people that feel entitled to dictate to the constructors how they should run their Grand-Prix, because, although not having a drivers licence themselves, they are frequent passengers in a taxicab...

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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by IanO » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:14 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:02 am
The only thing I'm critiquing is the name "world champion", for something clearly not the best in the world, not by far.

Specially as people that don't know about this would believe the computer chess world champion is like world champions in other disciplines, so they'll be misled into thinking this champion is actually the best thing humanity as a whole has produced.

Even at some point, a professional chess game reviewer that makes it for a living (Kingscrusher) had no idea that Stockfish was the strongest thing around, and people all around the world continue buying chess engines that claim to be world champions because they don't know better, so we really need a way to make the public know the truth, and it's as easy as stopping pretending this is a world championship.
I completely agree. The ICGA event stopped being a world championship when it could no longer pull the strongest chess machines in the world. The rating lists and couple of online events (TCEC, chess.com's CCC) have become a far better historical record of the evolution of the strongest engines over the past fifteen years. Even more embarrassing that the best machine since Deep Blue doesn't even want to show up, even to give a talk! DeepMind's AlphaZero should have participated the last several years.

They should just include chess as one of various ICGA conference computer game competitions and drop the World Championship title.

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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by jp » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:21 pm

IanO wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:14 pm
DeepMind's AlphaZero should have participated the last several years.
It's been agreed in this forum and elsewhere that Leela went past A0 long ago, at least in results, and Leela is a participant.

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Ovyron
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by Ovyron » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:55 am

hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
That is about the same as watching football on TV, and thinking you are a great sportsman just because the team you root for won.
No, it's knowing that I'd play football better than all the guys on TV. Namely, using CFish with some decent book remotely I would defeat these guys, so the're not worthy of a champion title.

The comparison with racing cars doesn't hold either, it's like they make a world championship race, and I could beat the cars that appear on there with my car at home that is nothing special (this has nothing to do with me, but with the fact anybody can beat the "world champion" from their basement.)

That was my point.
hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
If people don't know what the strongest engine is, it is just because they are stupid or lazy.
Really? You just called stupid or lazy 99.999% of the population. It's not their responsibility, because this is a matter of information, and you can only blame people if this was misinformation. But this is disinformation, the ICGA using the name "world champion" to deliberately make people think their tournament is more important than it really easy, of the level of the FIDE world Champion (but Magnus Carlsen and Caruana are not present.)
hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
For one, when you need hundreds of games to determine the Elo difference with any confidence
No, you don't. My opinion is polemical on this point, but the human world chess champion is very convincing on being the best, and he didn't need as many games as engines do. Because engines don't need them either (people have applied scientific standards and confidence intervals for something that has proven to not be necessary for human chess.)

It's much better to have the best on there than to play many games with them absent.

Just imagine if Komodo wasn't there (at least Komodo is third best in the world), what significance would it have for GridGinkgo to be the world champion? Being a champion and being of this world has lost all its meaning?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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