WCCC 2019 Macau..

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hgm
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by hgm » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:05 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:55 am
hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
That is about the same as watching football on TV, and thinking you are a great sportsman just because the team you root for won.
No, it's knowing that I'd play football better than all the guys on TV. Namely, using CFish with some decent book remotely I would defeat these guys, so the're not worthy of a champion title.

The comparison with racing cars doesn't hold either, it's like they make a world championship race, and I could beat the cars that appear on there with my car at home that is nothing special (this has nothing to do with me, but with the fact anybody can beat the "world champion" from their basement.)

That was my point.
hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
If people don't know what the strongest engine is, it is just because they are stupid or lazy.
Really? You just called stupid or lazy 99.999% of the population. It's not their responsibility, because this is a matter of information, and you can only blame people if this was misinformation. But this is disinformation, the ICGA using the name "world champion" to deliberately make people think their tournament is more important than it really easy, of the level of the FIDE world Champion (but Magnus Carlsen and Caruana are not present.)
hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
For one, when you need hundreds of games to determine the Elo difference with any confidence
No, you don't. My opinion is polemical on this point, but the human world chess champion is very convincing on being the best, and he didn't need as many games as engines do. Because engines don't need them either (people have applied scientific standards and confidence intervals for something that has proven to not be necessary for human chess.)

It's much better to have the best on there than to play many games with them absent.

Just imagine if Komodo wasn't there (at least Komodo is third best in the world), what significance would it have for GridGinkgo to be the world champion? Being a champion and being of this world has lost all its meaning?
Well, for one you have no idea how strong GridGinkgo really is.

How warped your thinking about this is is already obvious from your first remark, that you would "beat these guys" by using CFish. That is the same thing as a paralyzed prerson saying that he can beat Usain Bolt at the 200m dash by sitting in the backseat of a motor cycle.

You cannot beat anyone. You cannot even compete. You have not written any engine, and you would not even do how to do it.

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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by mjlef » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:51 pm

hgm wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:05 am
Ovyron wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:55 am
hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
That is about the same as watching football on TV, and thinking you are a great sportsman just because the team you root for won.
No, it's knowing that I'd play football better than all the guys on TV. Namely, using CFish with some decent book remotely I would defeat these guys, so the're not worthy of a champion title.

The comparison with racing cars doesn't hold either, it's like they make a world championship race, and I could beat the cars that appear on there with my car at home that is nothing special (this has nothing to do with me, but with the fact anybody can beat the "world champion" from their basement.)

That was my point.
hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
If people don't know what the strongest engine is, it is just because they are stupid or lazy.
Really? You just called stupid or lazy 99.999% of the population. It's not their responsibility, because this is a matter of information, and you can only blame people if this was misinformation. But this is disinformation, the ICGA using the name "world champion" to deliberately make people think their tournament is more important than it really easy, of the level of the FIDE world Champion (but Magnus Carlsen and Caruana are not present.)
hgm wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:09 am
For one, when you need hundreds of games to determine the Elo difference with any confidence
No, you don't. My opinion is polemical on this point, but the human world chess champion is very convincing on being the best, and he didn't need as many games as engines do. Because engines don't need them either (people have applied scientific standards and confidence intervals for something that has proven to not be necessary for human chess.)

It's much better to have the best on there than to play many games with them absent.

Just imagine if Komodo wasn't there (at least Komodo is third best in the world), what significance would it have for GridGinkgo to be the world champion? Being a champion and being of this world has lost all its meaning?
Well, for one you have no idea how strong GridGinkgo really is.

How warped your thinking about this is is already obvious from your first remark, that you would "beat these guys" by using CFish. That is the same thing as a paralyzed prerson saying that he can beat Usain Bolt at the 200m dash by sitting in the backseat of a motor cycle.

You cannot beat anyone. You cannot even compete. You have not written any engine, and you would not even do how to do it.
Tournaments involve more than a strong program. Our book maker spends about a year studying openngs to find ones suitable for Komodo. I am unsure he considers a specific opponent, but opening book changes happen throughout the tournament to avoid draws/repeated games and in response to how programs have done against others. You also have to find the fastest/biggest machine you can, have a skilled and fast operator to not waste time over the board, and decide resource issues like "with the limited SSD, what Syzygy set should I use" and arrange backup machines in case the connection is lost. You only have a realively rew rounds, so you have to take some chances. Online tournament have the ince advantage of having more games, meaning the chnce the strongest program will win. But all of the above are out of your hands. Basically, you need a team and a lot of thought for tournaments like WCCC. You gain more too since many ideas are shared.

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Ovyron
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by Ovyron » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:33 am

hgm wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:05 am
You cannot beat anyone. You cannot even compete. You have not written any engine, and you would not even do how to do it.
I could if I wanted (my first effort was stronger than Ruffian 1.0.5, wasn't that stronger than your Joker?) But if I did it with an engine that wasn't stronger than Stockfish, what would be the point? Somebody else could jump in and use my own arguments about how irrelevant being world champion was, and they'd be right, and you could tell them they can't do it, but if they did it and won it with something weaker than Stockfish, a third person could use my own arguments about how irrelevant being world champion was, and they'd be right...

The point is not who can beat Usain Bolt in a wheelchair, the point is Usain Bolt is missing, but it sounds like people want other people to believe they have the fastest guys in the world running, and that's plain misinformation.
Make someone happy today.

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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by Albert Silver » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:28 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:33 am
hgm wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:05 am
You cannot beat anyone. You cannot even compete. You have not written any engine, and you would not even do how to do it.
I could if I wanted (my first effort was stronger than Ruffian 1.0.5, wasn't that stronger than your Joker?) But if I did it with an engine that wasn't stronger than Stockfish, what would be the point? Somebody else could jump in and use my own arguments about how irrelevant being world champion was, and they'd be right, and you could tell them they can't do it, but if they did it and won it with something weaker than Stockfish, a third person could use my own arguments about how irrelevant being world champion was, and they'd be right...

The point is not who can beat Usain Bolt in a wheelchair, the point is Usain Bolt is missing, but it sounds like people want other people to believe they have the fastest guys in the world running, and that's plain misinformation.
Actually, your arguments hold no water whatsoever IMHO. The World Championship is a tournament. To win it you need to participate, and the winner is... the winner. No more, no less. If you want to argue the winner is not provably the best in the world for having won it, well, no one will disagree! Why would they? Even if AlphaMillion came and played and won with godly moves and a perfect score, it would still not prove it was the best in the world. How could a single tournament, much less a short one, prove any such thing? There are ratings lists for this.

However, whining someone else could have won it had they participated is utter BS. Unless they were barred from playing for unfair reasons, all they need to do is fill out the form. Just my 2 cents.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

mar
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by mar » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:47 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:33 am
I could if I wanted (my first effort was stronger than Ruffian 1.0.5, wasn't that stronger than your Joker?)
Then you must be a genius. Your first attempt was over 2600 elo? You are posting in the wrong forum then.
Can we download this masterpiece of yours somewhere?

(judging from your posts, I bet you could barely write a hello world. If you were such a programmer, you could actually write your "dream GUI" yourself)

But back on topic: the point is simple - if you don't compete, you can't win. So what exactly is your problem, really?

Maybe you could win with your second effort (I bet it would be 3.3k at least), nobody is preventing you from entering the championship.
Martin Sedlak

Robert Pope
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by Robert Pope » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:54 pm

“If I had ever learnt, I should have been a great proficient.”
- Lady Catherine de Bourgh
Pride and Prejudice

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mclane
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by mclane » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:04 am

Albert Silver wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:28 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:33 am
hgm wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:05 am
You cannot beat anyone. You cannot even compete. You have not written any engine, and you would not even do how to do it.
I could if I wanted (my first effort was stronger than Ruffian 1.0.5, wasn't that stronger than your Joker?) But if I did it with an engine that wasn't stronger than Stockfish, what would be the point? Somebody else could jump in and use my own arguments about how irrelevant being world champion was, and they'd be right, and you could tell them they can't do it, but if they did it and won it with something weaker than Stockfish, a third person could use my own arguments about how irrelevant being world champion was, and they'd be right...

The point is not who can beat Usain Bolt in a wheelchair, the point is Usain Bolt is missing, but it sounds like people want other people to believe they have the fastest guys in the world running, and that's plain misinformation.
Actually, your arguments hold no water whatsoever IMHO. The World Championship is a tournament. To win it you need to participate, and the winner is... the winner. No more, no less. If you want to argue the winner is not provably the best in the world for having won it, well, no one will disagree! Why would they? Even if AlphaMillion came and played and won with godly moves and a perfect score, it would still not prove it was the best in the world. How could a single tournament, much less a short one, prove any such thing? There are ratings lists for this.

However, whining someone else could have won it had they participated is utter BS. Unless they were barred from playing for unfair reasons, all they need to do is fill out the form. Just my 2 cents.
Exactly!!
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

noobpwnftw
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by noobpwnftw » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:29 am

A proverb says: the most favored kid is the one that cries the loudest.

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Ovyron
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by Ovyron » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:30 am

Albert Silver wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:28 pm
Actually, your arguments hold no water whatsoever IMHO. The World Championship is a tournament.
So, I can have a tournament named "The Universal Championship" and then have some "Universal Champion"? What would be the meaning of it? If Joker won it because it was the strongest engine entering and people were misled into thinking Joker was the strongest in the universe, wouldn't they be misled?

Awarding the "World Championship" is something that must be earned, the ICGA hasn't done so (they lost it after the "championship" was won retroactively by allowing the champion's opponents to disqualify the champion.)
mar wrote:Then you must be a genius.
Yeah.
mar wrote:Your first attempt was over 2600 elo? You are posting in the wrong forum then.
Can we download this masterpiece of yours somewhere?

(judging from your posts, I bet you could barely write a hello world. If you were such a programmer, you could actually write your "dream GUI" yourself)
My programming efforts will remain private as long as there's people in the world like you that could use them. Some people don't deserve to see it, so nobody gets to see it. Unfortunately, I've tried private releases of stuff, but it's impossible to avoid leaks, no matter how trusty someone looks, or if there's some long friendship of years preceding it, you send someone something private, they leak it, and then someone like you, that doesn't deserve it, gets to use it. That'd be unacceptable.

And, anyway, just like I'm really good at predicting what my corr chess opponents will play via extrapolation, I'm able to predict the outcomes of stuff. If I were to release my chess engine to the public, two things would happen. First, no matter what I achieved, some people would downplay it because I used TSCP as my basis. Oh, I already had 1600 elo for free, so adding 900 elo was like programming something that plays like 900 elo. Someone could point out it still allows two knights against king and think it's winning...

Finally, someone could test my claim, play it against Ruffian 105 and point out Ruffian won by some games, so my strength claims would be false or whatever. Just thinking about it running on the machine of such people disgusts me, so my consolation is that they could have all the money in the world, but running my engine is something they can't buy.
mar wrote:So what exactly is your problem, really?
The name, "World Champion", I guess words fail me to express what I want to say, so I'll just quote Dann Corbit here, he said it best:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:20 am
Wccc is and has long been utterly irrelevant. A few Europeans will disagree. Their opinions are irrelevant also.
Wccc is watched by a tiny smattering of European chess nerds.
Tcec is watched by hoards of enthusiasts.
Wccc does not even follow their own rules.
I find them utterly repulsive, despite my flaming love for computer chess.
My fervent hope is that the whole slimy ship should sink quietly into the sea and Fide should recognize the error of their ways and back something sensible like Tcec.
IMO, YMMV
Make someone happy today.

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MikeGL
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Re: WCCC 2019 Macau..

Post by MikeGL » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:32 am

Sorry, but what's the story behind this game?
Regarding the final position, white cannot lose this position as the lone pawn of black can be grabbed by Rook anytime and white holds a draw.

Would be nice to know the background story on how White lost this.
Guenther wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:45 am
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.

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