What was the last good Rodent?

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PK
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by PK » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:21 pm

I have just compiled Rodent 0.238 and added a zip archive to the history section - see http://www.pkoziol.cal24.pl/rodent/history.htm

carldaman
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by carldaman » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:26 pm

Thanks a lot, Pawel.

A good old version to archive. :)

BrendanJNorman
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by BrendanJNorman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:23 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:47 pm
I have read a lot about the Rodent chess engine, regarding its playing style, and I finally got to test it. The Rodent III 0.287 version, to my disappointment.

So when I say "good", I'm talking about the playing style. The great thing about a playing style is that you don't need to play hundreds of games, a few are enough to showcase the style. Traditionally, I play 10 games with minimal books.

The first thing is to calibrate an opposing engine, so that you get results close to 50% performance. In this case, it looks like Wasp 3.60 at fixed depth 19 plays a bit stronger than Rodent at depth 20, so I used that (here's the PGN for collectors.)

I didn't see anything special about Rodent's style whatsoever in these games, just look at this game:



Very nice, huh? Except it was Wasp who was white :( I think black on this game is a good representation of what you'd expect to see from Rodent (9...Be6 10...Nb8 11...Bc8 12...Nbd7 :x ).

I know it has a couple dozen personalities and that some ought to blow me out the water, but I'd just think, what if some previous version of Rodent played as awesome as people praised it for by default, and the personalities would just enhance something already great?

Seeking help from people used to Rodent, do you know what was the last engine version with "the sparkle"?
Nice to see some old friends talking about my favorite chess engine.

I have been very busy with my new baby, fixing a legal blunder, and working on a secret project that only Pawel will know about... ;)

But I also have wondered which version of Rodent played the nicest chess by default, because I had noticed that something happened with the Texel tuning introduced.

Have downloaded 0.238 and doing some tests when I have time. :)

carldaman
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by carldaman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:18 pm

Welcome back, Norman -- nice to hear you're doing well. :)

Texel tuning is known to smooth out the rough edges and corners that actually lend personality to an engine.

All for a bundle of rating points. Probably not worth it, in my view, unless the Elo gained is meaningful to the developer.

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Ovyron
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by Ovyron » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:49 am

carldaman wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:18 pm
Welcome back, Norman -- nice to hear you're doing well. :)
Yes, I'm so glad Brendan hasn't quit the forum. Waiting for more news from him.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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PeterO
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by PeterO » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:38 am

Hi Pavel,

I love to play on the wooden chessboard of the Millenium Chess Genius Exclusive.
Question: Can you please make a android version of Rodent that supports the Chess for Android - app (Aart Bik)?
I would love to modify Rodents playing style - in the „Chess for Android“ app!

Peter

supersharp77
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by supersharp77 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:10 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:47 pm
I have read a lot about the Rodent chess engine, regarding its playing style, and I finally got to test it. The Rodent III 0.287 version, to my disappointment.

So when I say "good", I'm talking about the playing style. The great thing about a playing style is that you don't need to play hundreds of games, a few are enough to showcase the style. Traditionally, I play 10 games with minimal books.

The first thing is to calibrate an opposing engine, so that you get results close to 50% performance. In this case, it looks like Wasp 3.60 at fixed depth 19 plays a bit stronger than Rodent at depth 20, so I used that (here's the PGN for collectors.)

I didn't see anything special about Rodent's style whatsoever in these games, just look at this game:



Very nice, huh? Except it was Wasp who was white :( I think black on this game is a good representation of what you'd expect to see from Rodent (9...Be6 10...Nb8 11...Bc8 12...Nbd7 :x ).

I know it has a couple dozen personalities and that some ought to blow me out the water, but I'd just think, what if some previous version of Rodent played as awesome as people praised it for by default, and the personalities would just enhance something already great?

Seeking help from people used to Rodent, do you know what was the last engine version with "the sparkle"?
No my friend..its not so simple..those "Rodent Personalities" need quite a bit of adjustment (adjust the txt file and move around the numbers a bit) Also the personalities need to used with a specific "opening book" Tal uses Tal Book, rodent gets rodent book, attacker get attacking book ect...That should get you closer to the style of play you are seeking...Good Luck :) :wink:

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Ovyron
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by Ovyron » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:16 am

I'm not a believer of books for personalities, if a personality is good then it should be good from the opening position, or with minimal books for variety.

It's possible default Stockfish could be made to appear as having a great style with a gambit book that plays an interesting opening no matter what the opponent plays, but that'd be "cheating", specially if the engine doesn't like the positions it's being forced to play.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

BrendanJNorman
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by BrendanJNorman » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:01 am

Ovyron wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:16 am
I'm not a believer of books for personalities, if a personality is good then it should be good from the opening position, or with minimal books for variety.

It's possible default Stockfish could be made to appear as having a great style with a gambit book that plays an interesting opening no matter what the opponent plays, but that'd be "cheating", specially if the engine doesn't like the positions it's being forced to play.
It's funny, I was talking to Pawel about this just last night.

I don't agree with you on this, man... Of course, the personality should be noticeable regardless of opening, but it will far less clear and performance much weaker if the "entry" positions don't match the desired style.

If I make a active and dynamic 'Kasparov' personality, and instead of Najdorf Sicilians, I have him playing some cramped French Winawer Defense, he's likely to lose patience, and lash out trying to become "active" and make sub-optimal moves - Just as the REAL Kasparov probably would!

I had somebody email me a year or so about a Karpov personality I'd created...he was complaining that Karpov has lost badly and so I was curious.

So, inspecting the PGN, I noticed that the guy has this positional, "safety-first" personality of Karpov playing razor sharp, chaotic opening lines with both colors.

So the results sucks, the same as they would for REAL Karpov.

You get the point. :)

Any player, human or otherwise, plays much more poorly (and struggles to show their real style) in positions where they feel uncomfortable.

If one is to make a personality simulating a human GM, it MUST also simulate their opening repertoire...otherwise it's just another engine.

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Ovyron
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Re: What was the last good Rodent?

Post by Ovyron » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:16 am

Yeah, I don't care much about personalities that emulate some specific human style, at least, other generic personalities, or engines that play awesome chess out-of-the-box are more appealing to me.

And, anyway, it may just be an illusion, try this:

Get a personality for Rodent of some GM, and a personality of ProDeo of the same GM. If you ask the people that have seen the former, they'll say it plays like it. If you ask a group that have seen the latter, they'll say it plays like it.

Now, play the Rodent personality against the ProDeo personality and see how they play completely different! Even though they're supposedly emulating the same player!

So those personalities aren't really playing what that human would have played, those are just playing styles inspired by those players.

An opening book for personalities should only accentuate those personalities and get into positions they play well, but this isn't trivial. Even on the Tactical vs. Positional videos that you sent me, at one point you were scratching your head about some move choices of Rodent Karpov's book, and it was clear Critter 0.52's book didn't aim to reach position that would favor a tactical engine.

Also, OpenTal's book would leave it in positions where it was clear OT was uncomfortable playing. So perhaps you are right, it can be done right, but what I've seen about opening books for personalities leaves a lot to be desired currently, and it's not an easy task.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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