Komodo elo at different level

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Marcus9
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm
Full name: Marco Giorgio

Komodo elo at different level

Post by Marcus9 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:39 pm

I have always appreciated that by setting Komodo levels an equal time-independent force is achieved. I would like to understand better what elo correspond to different TC.
Can someone with experience tell me that I play Komodo at different levels? I am interested in knowing what rating and / or would have a level of Komodo at Blitz times (3 '+ 2 "), Rapid (25' + 10"), Classic (90 '+ 30 ").

Komodo 11 has levels from 0 to 20 while Komodo 13 up to 25, so specify which version. Obviously I am not interested in the maximum strength levels but only those that remain equal independent of the hardware / TC

lkaufman
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Location: Maryland USA
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Re: Komodo elo at different level

Post by lkaufman » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm

Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:39 pm
I have always appreciated that by setting Komodo levels an equal time-independent force is achieved. I would like to understand better what elo correspond to different TC.
Can someone with experience tell me that I play Komodo at different levels? I am interested in knowing what rating and / or would have a level of Komodo at Blitz times (3 '+ 2 "), Rapid (25' + 10"), Classic (90 '+ 30 ").

Komodo 11 has levels from 0 to 20 while Komodo 13 up to 25, so specify which version. Obviously I am not interested in the maximum strength levels but only those that remain equal independent of the hardware / TC
Just go to chess.com and try to play against a computer. All the Komodo levels should appear along with their chess.com ratings at whatever time control you specify. Warning: the top few levels have artificially low ratings due to cheaters playing against them using computers themselves.
Komodo rules!

Marcus9
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm
Full name: Marco Giorgio

Re: Komodo elo at different level

Post by Marcus9 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:01 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm
Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:39 pm
I have always appreciated that by setting Komodo levels an equal time-independent force is achieved. I would like to understand better what elo correspond to different TC.
Can someone with experience tell me that I play Komodo at different levels? I am interested in knowing what rating and / or would have a level of Komodo at Blitz times (3 '+ 2 "), Rapid (25' + 10"), Classic (90 '+ 30 ").

Komodo 11 has levels from 0 to 20 while Komodo 13 up to 25, so specify which version. Obviously I am not interested in the maximum strength levels but only those that remain equal independent of the hardware / TC
Just go to chess.com and try to play against a computer. All the Komodo levels should appear along with their chess.com ratings at whatever time control you specify. Warning: the top few levels have artificially low ratings due to cheaters playing against them using computers themselves.

Are the levels in chess.com from Komodo 11? Because they reach up to 20. However I have no idea what rating they would have in long TC

mjlef
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Re: Komodo elo at different level

Post by mjlef » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:18 pm

Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:01 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm
Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:39 pm
I have always appreciated that by setting Komodo levels an equal time-independent force is achieved. I would like to understand better what elo correspond to different TC.
Can someone with experience tell me that I play Komodo at different levels? I am interested in knowing what rating and / or would have a level of Komodo at Blitz times (3 '+ 2 "), Rapid (25' + 10"), Classic (90 '+ 30 ").

Komodo 11 has levels from 0 to 20 while Komodo 13 up to 25, so specify which version. Obviously I am not interested in the maximum strength levels but only those that remain equal independent of the hardware / TC
Just go to chess.com and try to play against a computer. All the Komodo levels should appear along with their chess.com ratings at whatever time control you specify. Warning: the top few levels have artificially low ratings due to cheaters playing against them using computers themselves.

Are the levels in chess.com from Komodo 11? Because they reach up to 20. However I have no idea what rating they would have in long TC
Here is how the level system works:

a. since we cannot afford to "rent" Magnus Carlson enough to play a few thousand games, we had to estimate the elo. We aimed for Skill=19 (in Komodo 13.02 and older) to be about 2800 elo at fast games.
b. Each Skill level step is about 150 elo. So Skill=18 would be something like 2650 elo. Again, this is at fast games like Blitz against humans. We calibrated these Skill levels by playing thousands of games between adjacent levls, tweaking until we reach the elo difference we wanted.
c. Komodo is weakened by limiting its search depth, and by making the eval less accuate.

Note that since the skill levels under 20 have depth limits in them, then the elos are not going to be calibrated except for a very fast rate of play. But they will still have a similar elo drop between levels. So most players should be to find a suitable Skill level to roughly match them. If you are always being beat, lower Skill by 1 and try again. Once you can beat it too mush, raise Skill by 1. If you beat Komodo at Skill=20, then challenge Magnus.

Since releasing Komdoo 13.02, we found we needed more levels at the low end, so a future release will have levals from 0 to 25, with 25 being full strength Komodo. We also recalibrated the elo difference between levels. When we get closer to a release we will provide more details.

Mark

lkaufman
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Re: Komodo elo at different level

Post by lkaufman » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 am

Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:01 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm
Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:39 pm
I have always appreciated that by setting Komodo levels an equal time-independent force is achieved. I would like to understand better what elo correspond to different TC.
Can someone with experience tell me that I play Komodo at different levels? I am interested in knowing what rating and / or would have a level of Komodo at Blitz times (3 '+ 2 "), Rapid (25' + 10"), Classic (90 '+ 30 ").

Komodo 11 has levels from 0 to 20 while Komodo 13 up to 25, so specify which version. Obviously I am not interested in the maximum strength levels but only those that remain equal independent of the hardware / TC
Just go to chess.com and try to play against a computer. All the Komodo levels should appear along with their chess.com ratings at whatever time control you specify. Warning: the top few levels have artificially low ratings due to cheaters playing against them using computers themselves.

Are the levels in chess.com from Komodo 11? Because they reach up to 20. However I have no idea what rating they would have in long TC
I think they are currently using Komodo 12 or a version close to that on chess.com, but it won't be much different with Komodo 11 or 13 since the levels are fixed depth with randomness. I think only the blitz ratings are based on enough games to trust. So the blitz ratings there would tell you what rating to expect at 5 minute or maybe 5' + 2" or so. If you play 40 moves in 2 hours while the engine plays the same moves, I would expect its strength to be something like 400 elo lower, estimating that as the loss in strength from 40/2 hours to blitz for a typical human. Maybe 500.
Komodo rules!

Marcus9
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm
Full name: Marco Giorgio

Re: Komodo elo at different level

Post by Marcus9 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 am
Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:01 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm
Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:39 pm
I have always appreciated that by setting Komodo levels an equal time-independent force is achieved. I would like to understand better what elo correspond to different TC.
Can someone with experience tell me that I play Komodo at different levels? I am interested in knowing what rating and / or would have a level of Komodo at Blitz times (3 '+ 2 "), Rapid (25' + 10"), Classic (90 '+ 30 ").

Komodo 11 has levels from 0 to 20 while Komodo 13 up to 25, so specify which version. Obviously I am not interested in the maximum strength levels but only those that remain equal independent of the hardware / TC
Just go to chess.com and try to play against a computer. All the Komodo levels should appear along with their chess.com ratings at whatever time control you specify. Warning: the top few levels have artificially low ratings due to cheaters playing against them using computers themselves.

Are the levels in chess.com from Komodo 11? Because they reach up to 20. However I have no idea what rating they would have in long TC
I think they are currently using Komodo 12 or a version close to that on chess.com, but it won't be much different with Komodo 11 or 13 since the levels are fixed depth with randomness. I think only the blitz ratings are based on enough games to trust. So the blitz ratings there would tell you what rating to expect at 5 minute or maybe 5' + 2" or so. If you play 40 moves in 2 hours while the engine plays the same moves, I would expect its strength to be something like 400 elo lower, estimating that as the loss in strength from 40/2 hours to blitz for a typical human. Maybe 500.
So Komodo level 19 plays 2300 elo in long TC? It seems to me too much since stockfish manages to give a knight and still to beat him in blitz

lkaufman
Posts: 3537
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
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Re: Komodo elo at different level

Post by lkaufman » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:07 pm

Marcus9 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 am
Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:01 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm
Marcus9 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:39 pm
I have always appreciated that by setting Komodo levels an equal time-independent force is achieved. I would like to understand better what elo correspond to different TC.
Can someone with experience tell me that I play Komodo at different levels? I am interested in knowing what rating and / or would have a level of Komodo at Blitz times (3 '+ 2 "), Rapid (25' + 10"), Classic (90 '+ 30 ").

Komodo 11 has levels from 0 to 20 while Komodo 13 up to 25, so specify which version. Obviously I am not interested in the maximum strength levels but only those that remain equal independent of the hardware / TC
Just go to chess.com and try to play against a computer. All the Komodo levels should appear along with their chess.com ratings at whatever time control you specify. Warning: the top few levels have artificially low ratings due to cheaters playing against them using computers themselves.

Are the levels in chess.com from Komodo 11? Because they reach up to 20. However I have no idea what rating they would have in long TC
I think they are currently using Komodo 12 or a version close to that on chess.com, but it won't be much different with Komodo 11 or 13 since the levels are fixed depth with randomness. I think only the blitz ratings are based on enough games to trust. So the blitz ratings there would tell you what rating to expect at 5 minute or maybe 5' + 2" or so. If you play 40 moves in 2 hours while the engine plays the same moves, I would expect its strength to be something like 400 elo lower, estimating that as the loss in strength from 40/2 hours to blitz for a typical human. Maybe 500.
So Komodo level 19 plays 2300 elo in long TC? It seems to me too much since stockfish manages to give a knight and still to beat him in blitz
Komodo has come out about even giving knight odds to grandmasters in blitz in the past (Alex Lenderman for example), and Lc0 has come out well ahead of GM Naruditsky giving him piece odds at blitz. Also it is well established that computers can give larger handicaps to other engines than they can to similarly rated humans, who greatly modify their strategy for the situation. Komodo level 19 won most games at 5' + 2" from GMs, only Hikaru Nakamura seemed competititive with it at that level. I think Nakamura playing 5' + 2" is not weaker than typical 2300 playing long tc.
Komodo rules!

jp
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Komodo elo at different level

Post by jp » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:15 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm
Just go to chess.com and try to play against a computer.
I don't see 20 levels there. Am I looking in the wrong place?

lkaufman
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Location: Maryland USA
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Re: Komodo elo at different level

Post by lkaufman » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:00 pm

jp wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:15 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm
Just go to chess.com and try to play against a computer.
I don't see 20 levels there. Am I looking in the wrong place?
If you go to play, then select against computer, you should see Komodo levels 1 thru 20 (plus "Komodo boss" which I think is level 20 on 2 threads). Each level should display a rating at the requested time control. Only the blitz ratings are reliable.
Komodo rules!

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