Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

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zullil
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Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by zullil » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:16 pm

mar wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:21 pm
zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:50 pm
I do appreciate your point. Stockfish still needs depth in the 60's to find mate-in-5 here:

This seems to be one of the positions where disabling nullmove helps,
I bet SF would then see the mate immediately.
Don't wager anything of value to you. :lol:

zullil
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Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by zullil » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:15 pm

zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:16 pm
mar wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:21 pm
zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:50 pm
I do appreciate your point. Stockfish still needs depth in the 60's to find mate-in-5 here:

This seems to be one of the positions where disabling nullmove helps,
I bet SF would then see the mate immediately.
Don't wager anything of value to you. :lol:
Stockfish-dev (bench 4139590) with null move search disabled (default settings otherwise, so one search thread and reproducible):

info depth 58 seldepth 142 multipv 1 score mate 5 nodes 19941317329 nps 3077767 hashfull 1000 tbhits 0 time 6479149 pv e6d7 b5b4 g6f7 b4b3 f7e8 g7g6 e8d8 b3b2 e5c7

Seldepth 142, and more than 1.5 hours. :roll:

mar
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Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by mar » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:27 pm

zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:15 pm
zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:16 pm
mar wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:21 pm
zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:50 pm
I do appreciate your point. Stockfish still needs depth in the 60's to find mate-in-5 here:

This seems to be one of the positions where disabling nullmove helps,
I bet SF would then see the mate immediately.
Don't wager anything of value to you. :lol:
Stockfish-dev (bench 4139590) with null move search disabled (default settings otherwise, so one search thread and reproducible):

info depth 58 seldepth 142 multipv 1 score mate 5 nodes 19941317329 nps 3077767 hashfull 1000 tbhits 0 time 6479149 pv e6d7 b5b4 g6f7 b4b3 f7e8 g7g6 e8d8 b3b2 e5c7

Seldepth 142, and more than 1.5 hours. :roll:
seems I'd have lost the bet then :lol:
Martin Sedlak

MikeB
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Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by MikeB » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:56 am

Peter Skinner wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:38 am
Hello all,

I've been getting into computer chess again after a long hiatus due to family responsibilities. Raising 3 children on your own is tough work, so if you had a single Parent at any point in your life, thank them for putting you first before everything.

On a side note, where did all these 3400 engines come from? When I left there was 6 engines that cracked 3300+.

Is this more of the same from Robbolitto and what not?

Congratulations to the Komodo team for winning the World Computer Chess Championships in Macao.
Welcome back!

supersharp77
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Location: Southwest USA

Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by supersharp77 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:55 pm

Peter Skinner wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:38 am
Hello all,

I've been getting into computer chess again after a long hiatus due to family responsibilities. Raising 3 children on your own is tough work, so if you had a single Parent at any point in your life, thank them for putting you first before everything.

On a side note, where did all these 3400 engines come from? When I left there was 6 engines that cracked 3300+.

Is this more of the same from Robbolitto and what not?

Congratulations to the Komodo team for winning the World Computer Chess Championships in Macao.
McLean wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:29 pm
The idea behind chess is to mate. For that you need a plan. Otherwise you run around on the board without understanding and IMO you do not play chess but survive.

If an engine plays 2600+ ELO but is not planning to mate, it has IMO no understanding of the game.
Ok it plays 2600 elo.
But is chess running around and winning because the opponent resigns or has not enough material or is chess the art of mating the opponent ?

IMO even those strong chess programs have no clue about chess and run around waiting for the opponent to make a mistake.
We have so many draws in computerchess because the engines have no plan.

Yes humans have plans.
Why would machines NOT have a plan ??

It’s Intelligent to have a plan for the day.
Machines having NO plan are stupid.

IMO the next step in computerchess are programs that plan what to do to mate from the given position
Welcome back Peter S. "Numerous Chess engines rated over 3400?".......Pay it no mind it's all just artificial Ratings Inflation." "I test the old engines vs the newer players all the time and the 'Old Heads still hold their own'.. the main thing now is the increased depth of the never models.. Robbo was good to get 17 ply depth...now some engines can get 25-28 ply in depth in certain positions...Deep Junior 12.5 still beats people every day..."aggression still wins the day Sometimes"

Point #2(mclean) "Machines have no plans" The major culprit seen with this problem is LC0...especially in won games
seems to move pieces around aimlessly at times missing the correct(forcing) continuations...if it really gets annoying I make the call...gui will make the call if material gets over +8 in my contests...sometimes LC0 gives away material late in games with no fall back plans...not something you normally see..dunno :) :wink:

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Peter Skinner
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Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by Peter Skinner » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:24 am

MikeB wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:56 am
Welcome back!
Thanks Mike. Long time no chat. I see you're still tinkering with Crafty, as I have been over the years when I had time.
I got kicked out of Chapters because I moved all the Bible's to the fiction section.

komodoslash001
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Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by komodoslash001 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:08 am

I'm guessing this was supposed to be analysed without tablebases because brainfish finds it pretty quick with 6 man :)

New game Line
rk6/p1r3p1/P3B1Kp/1p2B3/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Brainfish 220819 64 POPCNT:

1.Bd7 b4 2.Kf7 h5 3.Ke7 h4 4.Kd8 b3 5.Bxc7#
White mates: +- (#5) Depth: 245/10 00:00:40 646MN, tb=17300461
(, 22.08.2019)

zullil
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Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by zullil » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:45 am

komodoslash001 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:08 am
I'm guessing this was supposed to be analysed without tablebases because brainfish finds it pretty quick with 6 man :)

New game Line
rk6/p1r3p1/P3B1Kp/1p2B3/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Brainfish 220819 64 POPCNT:

1.Bd7 b4 2.Kf7 h5 3.Ke7 h4 4.Kd8 b3 5.Bxc7#
White mates: +- (#5) Depth: 245/10 00:00:40 646MN, tb=17300461
(, 22.08.2019)
Here's Stockfish-dev (bench 3494372) with 6-man endgame tables but otherwise default settings. In particular, Threads = 1.

info depth 68 seldepth 18 multipv 1 score mate 5 nodes 1994866728 nps 1909083 hashfull 1000 tbhits 82946404 time 1044934 pv e6d7 b5b4 g6f7 b4b3 f7e8 h6h5 e8d8 b3b2 e5c7

So still depth 68 and almost 2 billion nodes. Not sure why Brainfish would be any different here, since my understanding is that it is essentially just Stockfish with a specialized opening book.

Of course, with endgame tables and non-default settings---like Threads = 20 for example---the solution can be gotten faster:

info depth 55 seldepth 21 multipv 1 score mate 5 nodes 656997402 nps 35944709 hashfull 989 tbhits 16928356 time 18278 pv e6d7 b5b4 g6f7 b4b3 f7e7 g7g6 e7d8 b3b2 e5c7

But still depth 55 and 650 million nodes for a mate-in-five. :roll:

Zenmastur
Posts: 487
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Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by Zenmastur » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:09 am

zullil wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:45 am
komodoslash001 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:08 am
I'm guessing this was supposed to be analysed without tablebases because brainfish finds it pretty quick with 6 man :)

New game Line
rk6/p1r3p1/P3B1Kp/1p2B3/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Brainfish 220819 64 POPCNT:

1.Bd7 b4 2.Kf7 h5 3.Ke7 h4 4.Kd8 b3 5.Bxc7#
White mates: +- (#5) Depth: 245/10 00:00:40 646MN, tb=17300461
(, 22.08.2019)
Here's Stockfish-dev (bench 3494372) with 6-man endgame tables but otherwise default settings. In particular, Threads = 1.

info depth 68 seldepth 18 multipv 1 score mate 5 nodes 1994866728 nps 1909083 hashfull 1000 tbhits 82946404 time 1044934 pv e6d7 b5b4 g6f7 b4b3 f7e8 h6h5 e8d8 b3b2 e5c7

So still depth 68 and almost 2 billion nodes. Not sure why Brainfish would be any different here, since my understanding is that it is essentially just Stockfish with a specialized opening book.

Of course, with endgame tables and non-default settings---like Threads = 20 for example---the solution can be gotten faster:

info depth 55 seldepth 21 multipv 1 score mate 5 nodes 656997402 nps 35944709 hashfull 989 tbhits 16928356 time 18278 pv e6d7 b5b4 g6f7 b4b3 f7e7 g7g6 e7d8 b3b2 e5c7

But still depth 55 and 650 million nodes for a mate-in-five. :roll:
Hmmm...

Code: Select all

 1 [-3.22]  1.Bd5  (0.00)
 2 [-0.13]  1.Bd5 b4 2.Bxa8  (0.00)
 4 [-0.13]  1.Bd5 b4 2.Bxa8 Kxa8  (0.00)
 5 [-0.13]  1.Bd5 b4 2.Bxa8 Kxa8 3.Bxc7  (0.00)
 6 [-0.13]  1.Bd5 b4 2.Bxa8 Kxa8 3.Bxc7 b3  (0.00)
 7 [-0.13]  1.Bd5 b4 2.Bxa8 Kxa8 3.Bxc7 b3 4.Kxg7  (0.00)
 8 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 b4 2.Bxa8 Kxa8 3.Bxc7 b3 4.Be5  (0.00)
 9 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 b4 2.Bxa8 Kxa8 3.Bxc7 b3 4.Be5 b2 5.Bxb2  (0.01)
13 [-0.58]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Kxg7 Kd7 4.Kf6 Ra4 5.Kf5 Rxa6 6.Bc3 Ra2 7.Ke5 a5 8.Bd5 Re2+ 9.Kf5  (0.04)
14 [-0.29]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Kxg7 Kd7 4.Bf3 Ra4 5.Kxh6 Rxa6+ 6.Kh5 Re6 7.Bd4 a5  (0.08)
15 [-0.21]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Ra4 4.Bb7+ Kc7 5.Bxh6 b4 6.Bf4+ Kb6 7.Be3+ Kb5 8.Bc8 Ra3 9.Bxa7 b3 10.Bf2  (0.16)
16 [-0.32]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kc7 4.Kxh6 b4 5.Bd5 Rc1 6.Kg6 Kd6 7.Be4 Rg1+ 8.Kf7 Rd1 9.Kf6 Kc5 10.Kf5 Kc4  (0.21)
17 [-0.13]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Ra4 4.Kxh6 b4 5.Kg5 Rxa6 6.Kf4 Rd6 7.Bf3 b3 8.Be5 Rb6 9.Bb2 a5 10.Ke4 Kb7 11.Kd4+ Kc7  (0.24)
18 [-0.13]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Ra4 4.Kxh6 b4 5.Kg5 Rxa6 6.Kf5 Ra2 7.Bd5 Rd2 8.Ke4 a5 9.Bb3 Kc7 10.Bd4 Kc6 11.Be3  (0.25)
19 [-0.29]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Ra4 4.Kxh6 Rxa6+ 5.Kg5 Re6 6.Kf5 Re2 7.Be4 b4 8.Ke5 Rd2 9.Bh6 Rh2 10.Bg7 a5 11.Kd5 Rh5+ 12.Kc6 a4 13.Bd5 a3 14.Be6+ Kb8  (0.33)
20 [-0.30]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Ra4 4.Kxh6 Rxa6+ 5.Kg5 Ra2 6.Kf4 a5 7.Ke3 Kc7 8.Be4 Ra3+ 9.Kd4 Kb6 10.Bf6 a4 11.Bd8+ Ka6 12.Bf6 Rh3 13.Kc5 Rh5+ 14.Kc6  (0.45)
21 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kd7 4.Kxh6 Kd6 5.Kg5 Rc8 6.Bf3 Kc5 7.Kf5 b4 8.Bd1 Kc4 9.Be2+ Kd5 10.Bf3+ Kc5  (0.71)
22 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kd7 4.Kxh6 Kd6 5.Kg5 Rc8 6.Bf3 Kc5 7.Kf5 b4 8.Bd1 Rg8 9.Be5 Rg1 10.Bb3 Rb1 11.Be6 Rf1+ 12.Ke4 Re1+ 13.Kf5 Rf1+  (0.80)
23 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Ra4 4.Bb7+ Kc7 5.Bxh6 b4 6.Kf5 b3 7.Bg7 Kd6 8.Bf8+ Kd7 9.Bg7  (0.81)
24 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 b4 4.Kxh6 Kc7 5.Bb7 b3 6.Kg5 Kb6 7.Kf5 Rb4 8.Bc3 b2 9.Bxb2 Rxb2  (1.23)
25 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 b4 4.Kxh6 Kc7 5.Kg5 Kb6 6.Bb7 b3 7.Kf5 Rb4 8.Bc3 b2 9.Bxb2 Rxb2  (1.25)
27 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 b4 4.Kxh6 Kc7 5.Kg5 Kb6 6.Bb7 b3 7.Kf5 Rb4 8.Bc3 Rc4  (1.47)
28 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kc7 4.Bb7 Ra4 5.Kxh6 b4 6.Kg5 b3 7.Kf5 Kd6 8.Bf8+ Kd7 9.Bg7 Kd6  (1.61)
29 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kc7 4.Kxh6 b4 5.Kg5 Kb6 6.Bb7 b3 7.Kf5 Rb4 8.Bb2 Kb5 9.Ke5 Ra4 10.Bd4 Kb4 11.Bxa7 b2 12.Be4 Kc3 13.Bb1 Rxa6  (1.92)
30 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Ra4 4.Bb7+ Kd7 5.Kxh6 b4 6.Kg5 b3 7.Kf5 Ra5+ 8.Kf4 Rb5 9.Be4 b2 10.Bd4 Ke6 11.Bxb2 Rxb2  (1.93)
32 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Ra4 4.Bb7+ Kd7 5.Kxh6 b4 6.Kg5 b3 7.Kf5 Kd6 8.Bf8+ Kc7 9.Bg7  (2.32)
33 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kd7 4.Kxh6 Rg4 5.Bf3 Ra4 6.Bb7 b4 7.Kg5 b3 8.Kf5 Kd6 9.Bf8+ Kc7 10.Bg7 Kd6  (2.80)
34 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kd7 4.Kxh6 Rg4 5.Bf3 Ra4 6.Bb7 b4 7.Kg5 b3 8.Kf5 Ra5+ 9.Kf4 Rb5 10.Be4 b2 11.Bd4 Ke6 12.Bxb2 Rxb2  (2.84)
37 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kd7 4.Kxh6 Rg4 5.Bf3 Ra4 6.Bb7 Ke6 7.Kg5 b4 8.Bc8+ Kd6 9.Kf4 b3+ 10.Ke3 Ra2 11.Bd4 b2 12.Bf5 b1=Q 13.Bxb1 Rxa6  (3.56)
38 [+0.00]  1.Bd5 Kc8 2.Bxa8 Rc4 3.Bxg7 Kd7 4.Kxh6 Rg4 5.Bf3 Ra4 6.Bb7 Kc7 7.Kg5 Kb6 8.Kf5 Rxa6 9.Bxa6  (3.72)
43 [M5]  1.Bd7  (6.68)
43 [M5]  1.Bd7 b4 2.Kf7 b3 3.Ke8 b2 4.Kd8 b1=Q 5.Bxc7#  (6.68)
This is with ABROK Haswell compile of Aug-21 with an empty TT. Total time is 6.68 seconds.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

zullil
Posts: 5668
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Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Where did all these 3400 engines come from?

Post by zullil » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:04 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:09 am

This is with ABROK Haswell compile of Aug-21 with an empty TT. Total time is 6.68 seconds.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Puzzling. I just downloaded the linux-modern binary from abrok. That's what I can test on the machine I'm currently at.

Default settings, so 1 thread, 16 MB hash, no endgame tables:

info depth 42 seldepth 68 multipv 1 score cp -38 nodes 331760937 nps 2231660 hashfull 1000 tbhits 0 time 148661 pv e6d5 b8c8 d5a8 c7c4 e5g7 b5b4 a8d5 c4c5 d5f3 c8c7 g7h6 b4b3 h6g7 c5c2 f3e4 c2d2 g6f5 c7b6 g7c3 d2d8 f5e5 b6c5 e5f4 d8d6 f4e5 d6d1 e5f4 c5c4 c3e5 c4b4 f4e3 b4a3 e5d4 d1e1 e3f4 b3b2 e4g6 e1e6 g6d3 a3b3 d4a7 b3c3 d3b1 e6a6

and still searching ...

Puzzling...

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