Komodo 13.1 released

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Paloma
Posts: 802
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: Komodo 13.1 released

Post by Paloma » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:42 am

> We estimate the elo gain at fast time limits from version 13.02 to be around 20 points, for both regular and MCTS versions, and regardless of one, four, or many threads.

Hi Larry,

it seems the ELO-Boost of mcts is getting considerably slower, (now equal to regular version)
so your goal that mcts may be stronger than regular in the future, it's not likely.

Or is my impression wrong?

lkaufman
Posts: 3647
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Komodo 13.1 released

Post by lkaufman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:54 pm

Paloma wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:42 am
> We estimate the elo gain at fast time limits from version 13.02 to be around 20 points, for both regular and MCTS versions, and regardless of one, four, or many threads.

Hi Larry,

it seems the ELO-Boost of mcts is getting considerably slower, (now equal to regular version)
so your goal that mcts may be stronger than regular in the future, it's not likely.

Or is my impression wrong?
Well, when we work on normal Komodo, which is pretty much all we did since 13.02 release, the elo gains usually apply to MCTS version as well. But the reverse is not true. Any MCTS specific ideas we try will help only that version. Although I don't see exactly how the MCTS will surpass the normal version, it is obvious to me that the MCTS version is in a much earlier stage of development, and all we need is a couple good ideas for it to catch up. With alpha-beta, hundreds of programmers have been working on it for half a century, and it's not easy to think of a really good, significant, new idea. But Komodo MCTS is a unique program, almost no one else is working on anything at all similar, so there should be huge amounts to discover.
Komodo rules!

Modern Times
Posts: 2371
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:02 pm

Re: Komodo 13.1 released

Post by Modern Times » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:13 pm

And don't forget the MCTS version's strength in Multipv analysis. That makes it better than the standard version for that use-case scenario.
.

Opinions expressed here are my own, and not necessarily those of the CCRL Group.

cma6
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 3:58 pm

Komodo 13.1 suggested parameters for analysis

Post by cma6 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:20 pm

Hi LK:
I just installed latest Komodo.
I did not understand this " we have added two new skill levels at the bottom and two new skill levels at the top, so old level 0 is now level 3 and old level 19 is now level 22, with 23 and 24 being even stronger, and 25 being unlimited". It is unclear to which parameters you are referring.

What are current recommendations for best parameters for long analysis?

Syzygy probe depth: 8 or 2, assuming 6-man TBs installed and many cores?
Dynamism: 124 or 100?
K safety: 84 or 72?
MCTS Explore: 50 or ?
Selectivity: 153 or ?

Thanks, CMa

lkaufman
Posts: 3647
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Komodo 13.1 suggested parameters for analysis

Post by lkaufman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:14 pm

cma6 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:20 pm
Hi LK:
I just installed latest Komodo.
I did not understand this " we have added two new skill levels at the bottom and two new skill levels at the top, so old level 0 is now level 3 and old level 19 is now level 22, with 23 and 24 being even stronger, and 25 being unlimited". It is unclear to which parameters you are referring.

What are current recommendations for best parameters for long analysis?

Syzygy probe depth: 8 or 2, assuming 6-man TBs installed and many cores?
Dynamism: 124 or 100?
K safety: 84 or 72?
MCTS Explore: 50 or ?
Selectivity: 153 or ?

Thanks, CMa
The skill levels refer to "skill", I thought that was clear. Regarding Syzygy, setting depends on whether TBs are on SS drive or not, if they are you can turn off smart syzygy and use defaults. Regarding the other settings, the defaults are what we believe to be best at levels we can actually test at. As to what might be better for long analysis on many cores, there are some indications that higher settings for Selectivity and for Dynamism and/or K safety might be better, but how much higher is pretty much just guessing. Perhaps 10% increases or so would be my guess.
Komodo rules!

Marcus9
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm
Full name: Marco Giorgio

Re: Komodo 13.1 released

Post by Marcus9 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:30 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:08 pm
Aside from the strength gains, we have added two new skill levels at the bottom and two new skill levels at the top, so old level 0 is now level 3 and old level 19 is now level 22, with 23 and 24 being even stronger, and 25 being unlimited.
I have Komodo 13 on android, version 13.02 but it has levels up to 25, so it should already be 13.1 as you said in another post.
However I did challenge Komodo 11 level 19 vs Komodo 13 level 22 and it was a landslide victory for Komodo 19, 82-18 (+262 elo)
So I thought that Komodo 13 level 23 corresponded to Komodo 11 level 19 but it doesn't look like that either, In a match of 100 games Komodo 19 won against Komodo 23, 63-37 (+95 elo)
Later I did other 100 games mini matches and it seems that no Komodo 13 level matches Komodo 11 level.
Is it a problem of the android version? What is this inequality due to?

lvl19 22-78 lvl24
lvl19 63.5-36.5 lvl23
lvl18 40.5-59.5 lvl23
lvl18 62-38 lvl22
lvl17 36-64 lvl22
lvl17 57.5-42.5 lvl21
lvl16 28-72 lvl21
lvl16 53-47 lvl20

lkaufman
Posts: 3647
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Komodo 13.1 released

Post by lkaufman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:51 pm

Marcus9 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:30 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:08 pm
Aside from the strength gains, we have added two new skill levels at the bottom and two new skill levels at the top, so old level 0 is now level 3 and old level 19 is now level 22, with 23 and 24 being even stronger, and 25 being unlimited.
I have Komodo 13 on android, version 13.02 but it has levels up to 25, so it should already be 13.1 as you said in another post.
However I did challenge Komodo 11 level 19 vs Komodo 13 level 22 and it was a landslide victory for Komodo 19, 82-18 (+262 elo)
So I thought that Komodo 13 level 23 corresponded to Komodo 11 level 19 but it doesn't look like that either, In a match of 100 games Komodo 19 won against Komodo 23, 63-37 (+95 elo)
Later I did other 100 games mini matches and it seems that no Komodo 13 level matches Komodo 11 level.
Is it a problem of the android version? What is this inequality due to?

lvl19 22-78 lvl24
lvl19 63.5-36.5 lvl23
lvl18 40.5-59.5 lvl23
lvl18 62-38 lvl22
lvl17 36-64 lvl22
lvl17 57.5-42.5 lvl21
lvl16 28-72 lvl21
lvl16 53-47 lvl20
That is strange, I'll have to investigate. I wouldn't expect the matching to be perfect, because Komodo 13 is different from Komodo 11, but it shouldn't be way off like this. I'll post here when I have the answer.
Komodo rules!

lkaufman
Posts: 3647
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Contact:

Re: Komodo 13.1 released

Post by lkaufman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:12 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:51 pm
Marcus9 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:30 pm
lkaufman wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:08 pm
Aside from the strength gains, we have added two new skill levels at the bottom and two new skill levels at the top, so old level 0 is now level 3 and old level 19 is now level 22, with 23 and 24 being even stronger, and 25 being unlimited.
I have Komodo 13 on android, version 13.02 but it has levels up to 25, so it should already be 13.1 as you said in another post.
However I did challenge Komodo 11 level 19 vs Komodo 13 level 22 and it was a landslide victory for Komodo 19, 82-18 (+262 elo)
So I thought that Komodo 13 level 23 corresponded to Komodo 11 level 19 but it doesn't look like that either, In a match of 100 games Komodo 19 won against Komodo 23, 63-37 (+95 elo)
Later I did other 100 games mini matches and it seems that no Komodo 13 level matches Komodo 11 level.
Is it a problem of the android version? What is this inequality due to?

lvl19 22-78 lvl24
lvl19 63.5-36.5 lvl23
lvl18 40.5-59.5 lvl23
lvl18 62-38 lvl22
lvl17 36-64 lvl22
lvl17 57.5-42.5 lvl21
lvl16 28-72 lvl21
lvl16 53-47 lvl20
That is strange, I'll have to investigate. I wouldn't expect the matching to be perfect, because Komodo 13 is different from Komodo 11, but it shouldn't be way off like this. I'll post here when I have the answer.
OK, I have the answer. My memory was the culprit here. New Level 24 is indeed two levels above Old Level 19, but we didn't add two levels at the top, only this one, which means that all the old levels 1 thru 19 equate to new levels four higher, not three higher, and levels 1 thru 4 at the bottom are new. But the levels do jump around in strength from version to version, depending on how much reduction/selectivity each version has. So it turns out that level 23 on Komodo 13.1 beats level 19 on Komodo 13.02 by fifty elo, even though the specs are the same, because K13.1 reduces less than K13.02 did. Against Komodo 12, Komodo 13.1 level 23 lost by six elo to Komodo 12 level 19, apparently because K12 reduced or pruned even less than k13.02. I don't have the exact version in the tester that is in Android K11, but presumably based on your test it was reducing and pruning even less. I'll need to fix the readme file accordingly. Thank you for catching this.
One other point about the skill levels. You can create intermediate levels by using more than one thread. I can't be very precise, but in general any level will play stronger with more threads, but even with 8 threads it should not generally reach the strength of the next higher level.
Komodo rules!

User avatar
Nordlandia
Posts: 2376
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Komodo 13.1 released

Post by Nordlandia » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:25 pm

Play store description say K13.02. I noticed table memory were reduced to 64 from 128. Any info on this one. I suppose on relatively strong hardware 128 and more is still good ?

Max
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Komodo 13.1 released

Post by Max » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:14 pm

Marcus9 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:30 pm
I have Komodo 13 on android, version 13.02 but it has levels up to 25, so it should already be 13.1 as you said in another post.
Are there different Komodo 13 versions on Android?

For me the skill level is from 0..20.
Komodo 13.png
Komodo 13.png (101.57 KiB) Viewed 588 times
Hope we're not just the biological boot loader for digital super intelligence. Unfortunately, that is increasingly probable - Elon Musk

Post Reply