29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

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Glarean
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:04 am
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Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by Glarean » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:26 am

jorose wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:11 pm
I can't help but mention one issue I have with your article. You compare depth and nodes of Leela with other engines, which mean completely different things in MCTS and AB engines.
Thanks for your feedbach - but my tournament report wasn't about Leela's "depth and nodes" comparison with other engines.
It's actually a simple matter:
I organized a engines tournament; the A/B's got their best conditions, and the NN's got their best conditions. At the end I added up - basta :-)
https://glarean-magazin.ch/2019/08/24/s ... ogramming/

Greetings: Walter

BTW: Can I download your "Winter" UCI-Engine?

Glarean
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:04 am
Contact:

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by Glarean » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:33 am

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:23 pm
yes, as i thought....1...ra6 seems to be not really worse as well according a quick insight (if worse at all, which i cant see atm)...and if 1...rec8 is a tranposition then how long does it take SF to find it, lol...if it chooses 1...Ra6 it doesnt matter imo...its always the same (more or less) imo...bad testpos honestly as far as i dont miss something serious...thx Louis for reading my post and doing the stuff !! :-)
Yeah, Louis did a good job - look here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71645&start=40#p809865

Uri Blass
Posts: 8606
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by Uri Blass » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:17 am

jdart wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:41 pm
stockfish could see in 1 minutes depths that Ferret could not see in 93 hours
Today's engines are better searchers but also don't forget that Moore's law has vastly increased processing power from Ferret's time to now.

--Jon
I believe that there is not a huge difference in hardware considering the fact that I do not use a fast hardware by today standards.

Maybe my hardware is 2 times faster of 3 time faster than Ferret's hardware.

Vinvin
Posts: 4393
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by Vinvin » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:30 am

zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:08 pm
Vinvin wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:42 pm
Glarean wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:17 pm
...
One of the most interesting positions from these tournament games is this one here:


Here Leela played 24... c3!
...
One more good and hard test position !
A deep new search with Stockfish-dev suggests that c3 might indeed be the "best" move here:

-3.69 1... c3 2. Na3 Rec8 3. Nc2 Nb2 4. a3 h5 5. f3 hxg4 6. hxg4 Nc4 7. Kh2 Ra6 8. Kg3 f6 9. e4 dxe4 10. fxe4 Be8 11. d5 Bg6 12. a4 Rxa4 13. Nd4 c2 14. Qxc2 Ra3+ 15. Kf2 Rca8 16. Ne2 Ra2 17. Qd1 Nb2 18. Qd4 R8a3 19. Bc1 Nd3+ 20. Kf1 Rxe2 21. Kxe2 Nxc1+ 22. Kf1 Rf3+ 23. Kg2 Rd3 24. Qb6 Bxe4+ 25. Kg1 Kh7 26. Qxb5 Bxd5 27. Kf2 Kh6 28. Qd7 g6 29. Ke1 Rd4 30. Kf2 Kg5 31. b5 Rd1 32. Qc7 Nd3+ 33. Ke2 Rc1 34. Qd6 Nf4+ 35. Ke3 Rc3+ 36. Kd4 Rc4+ 37. Ke3 Re4+ 38. Kd2 Rd4+ 39. Kc3 Rc4+ 40. Kb3 Rc6+ 41. Qxd5+ Nxd5 42. bxc6 Kf4 43. Kc4 Ke5 44. Kc5 Nc7 45. Kb6 Kd6 46. Kb7 Ne6 (depth 56, 11:13:21)

-2.92 1... Rec8 2. Nd2 c3 3. Nb3 c2 4. Nc5 Nxc5 5. dxc5 Rxa2 6. Be5 d4 7. exd4 Bc6 8. d5 Bxd5 9. Qg5 f6 10. Bxf6 c1=Q+ 11. Qxc1 gxf6 12. Qd1 Rd8 13. c6 Raa8 14. c7 Rd7 15. Qd4 Kg7 16. g5 Kg8 17. h4 fxg5 18. Kh2 Rc8 19. Qf6 Rcxc7 20. Qxg5+ Kf7 21. Qf5+ Ke7 22. Qe5+ Be6 23. Qg7+ Bf7 24. Qe5+ Kd8 25. Qxb5 Rc4 26. Qb8+ Ke7 27. Kg3 Rd3+ 28. f3 Rcc3 29. Qe5+ Be6 30. Qg7+ Kd6 31. Qf6 Rxf3+ 32. Qxf3 Rxf3+ 33. Kxf3 Kc6 34. b5+ Kxb5 35. Kg3 Kc4 36. Kf4 Bd5 37. Ke5 Kc5 38. Kf6 Kd4 (depth 56, 11:13:21)
Thanks to you and Walter for all the time and deep analyze of this position !
My conclusion is : c3 is better than Rec8 but Rec8 seems winning as well.

peter
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by peter » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:15 am

Hi Lous!
zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:08 pm
A deep new search with Stockfish-dev suggests that c3 might indeed be the "best" move here:

-3.69 1... c3 2. Na3 Rec8 3. Nc2 Nb2 4. a3 h5 5. f3 hxg4 6. hxg4 Nc4 7. Kh2 Ra6 8. Kg3 f6 9. e4 dxe4 10. fxe4 Be8 11. d5 Bg6 12. a4 Rxa4 13. Nd4 c2 14. Qxc2 Ra3+ 15. Kf2 Rca8 16. Ne2 Ra2 17. Qd1 Nb2 18. Qd4 R8a3 19. Bc1 Nd3+ 20. Kf1 Rxe2 21. Kxe2 Nxc1+ 22. Kf1 Rf3+ 23. Kg2 Rd3 24. Qb6 Bxe4+ 25. Kg1 Kh7 26. Qxb5 Bxd5 27. Kf2 Kh6 28. Qd7 g6 29. Ke1 Rd4 30. Kf2 Kg5 31. b5 Rd1 32. Qc7 Nd3+ 33. Ke2 Rc1 34. Qd6 Nf4+ 35. Ke3 Rc3+ 36. Kd4 Rc4+ 37. Ke3 Re4+ 38. Kd2 Rd4+ 39. Kc3 Rc4+ 40. Kb3 Rc6+ 41. Qxd5+ Nxd5 42. bxc6 Kf4 43. Kc4 Ke5 44. Kc5 Nc7 45. Kb6 Kd6 46. Kb7 Ne6 (depth 56, 11:13:21)

-2.92 1... Rec8 2. Nd2 c3 3. Nb3 c2 4. Nc5 Nxc5 5. dxc5 Rxa2 6. Be5 d4 7. exd4 Bc6 8. d5 Bxd5 9. Qg5 f6 10. Bxf6 c1=Q+ 11. Qxc1 gxf6 12. Qd1 Rd8 13. c6 Raa8 14. c7 Rd7 15. Qd4 Kg7 16. g5 Kg8 17. h4 fxg5 18. Kh2 Rc8 19. Qf6 Rcxc7 20. Qxg5+ Kf7 21. Qf5+ Ke7 22. Qe5+ Be6 23. Qg7+ Bf7 24. Qe5+ Kd8 25. Qxb5 Rc4 26. Qb8+ Ke7 27. Kg3 Rd3+ 28. f3 Rcc3 29. Qe5+ Be6 30. Qg7+ Kd6 31. Qf6 Rxf3+ 32. Qxf3 Rxf3+ 33. Kxf3 Kc6 34. b5+ Kxb5 35. Kg3 Kc4 36. Kf4 Bd5 37. Ke5 Kc5 38. Kf6 Kd4 (depth 56, 11:13:21)
Found some enhancement for 24...Rec8 25.Nd2 with 25...h5!

Output after some Forward Backward of corresponding lines at the positions after 24...Rec8:



Analysis by Cfish 050819 x64 POP:

Code: Select all

25.Dc2 Ta6 26.g5 c3 27.h4 Tc4 28.Sa3 
  -+  (-1.85)   Tiefe: 7/6   00:00:00  11kN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.Kg2 c3 27.Sa3 Sb2 28.Sb1 Sd3 29.Dxd3 c2 
  -+  (-1.79)   Tiefe: 8/9   00:00:00  16kN
25.Kg2 c3 26.Ld6 c2 27.Sa3 Sc3 28.Sxc2 
  -/+  (-1.28)   Tiefe: 9/10   00:00:00  30kN
25.Kg2 c3 26.Ld6 c2 27.Sa3 Sc3 28.Sxc2 Txa2 29.Lc5 h5 30.e4 Sxe4 31.f3 Sc3 32.Dd2 Sb1 33.Dc1 Sa3 
  -+  (-1.84)   Tiefe: 10/18   00:00:00  78kN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.Lg5 c3 27.Le7 h5 28.gxh5 Th6 29.Lc5 Lxh3 30.Sxc3 Sxc3 31.Dxc3 Tcc6 32.f3 Txh5 
  -+  (-1.85)   Tiefe: 11/29   00:00:00  134kN
25.Ld6 Ta6 26.Lc5 h5 27.f3 Te8 28.Kf2 Sxc5 29.dxc5 Txa2+ 30.Kg3 Te2 31.Sc3 T2xe3 32.Sxd5 h4+ 33.Kxh4 
  -+  (-1.86)   Tiefe: 12/29   00:00:00  220kN
25.Ld6 Ta6 26.Lc5 h5 27.gxh5 Lxh3 28.Sd2 Th6 29.Sf1 Txh5 30.Sg3 Th6 31.Dc2 Tg6 32.Kh2 Ld7 33.Sf5 Lxf5 34.Dxf5 Tcc6 
  -+  (-1.86)   Tiefe: 13/29   00:00:00  339kN
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 h5 27.f3 Sb2 28.a3 Sc4 29.gxh5 Lf5 30.Kh2 Sd2 31.Kg3 Lxc2 32.Dxc2 Tc4 33.h6 g6 34.e4 dxe4 35.Lxd2 cxd2 36.Dxd2 Txa3 
  -+  (-1.84)   Tiefe: 14/29   00:00:00  507kN
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 Sc4 29.gxh5 Lf5 30.Kh2 Lxc2 31.Dxc2 Sxa3 32.Df5 c2 33.e4 c1T 34.Lxc1 Txc1 35.Dxd5 
  -/+  (-1.53)   Tiefe: 15/31   00:00:00  613kN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 h5 27.f3 Sb2 28.a3 Sc4 29.gxh5 Lf5 30.Kh2 Lxc2 31.Dxc2 Sxa3 32.Df5 c2 33.e4 c1L 34.Lxc1 Txc1 35.Dxd5 Tac8 36.e5 T1c6 37.Dd7 Sc4 38.Kg3 Sd2 39.e6 fxe6 40.h6 T8c7 41.De8+ Kh7 42.hxg7 Kxg7 43.d5 Tc3 44.dxe6 Txf3+ 45.Kg2 Tf6 46.Dd8 Tg6+ 47.Kh2 Sf3+ 48.Kh1 
  -+  (-1.84)   Tiefe: 24/47   00:00:01  28771kN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.g5 Tf3 29.Sd2 Txh3 30.exd5 Sb6 31.g6 Sxd5 32.De4 Sxe3 33.De7 Le8 34.gxf7+ Lxf7 35.Dd7 Te8 36.Dxh3 c3 37.Sb3 Lxb3 38.Dd7 Ta8 39.fxe3 c2 40.Dc6 Kh7 41.Dc3 Txa2 42.e4 Lf7 
  -+  (-1.97)   Tiefe: 25/47   00:00:03  62258kN
...
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.g5 Tf3 29.Kg2 Txh3 30.Sc3 Sxc3 31.Dxc3 dxe4 32.a4 bxa4 33.b5 Txe3 34.Dxe3 Lxb5 35.Dh3 La6 36.Dc3 Ta8 37.g6 fxg6 38.Da5 Kh7 39.Dxa4 e3 40.Kf1 Lb7 41.Db4 Le4 42.Dxc4 Tf8 43.d5 Txf2+ 44.Ke1 Lf3 45.Df4 Lxd5 46.Dxe3 Tf5 47.Dd4 Lf3 48.Dc4 
  -+  (-1.84)   Tiefe: 33/52   00:01:22  1791MN
25.Dc2 Ta6 
  -+  (-1.95 --)   Tiefe: 34/60   00:01:42  2222MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-1.84 ++)   Tiefe: 34/60   00:01:47  2334MN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 h5 27.f3 hxg4 28.hxg4 Sb2 29.a3 Sc4 30.Kf2 f6 31.Dd1 g5 32.Lg3 Le8 33.f4 Lg6 34.f5 Lf7 35.Dc1 Te8 36.Kf3 Kg7 37.De1 Sd2+ 38.Kg2 Th8 39.De2 Le8 40.Dd1 Th6 41.Dc1 Lf7 42.Se1 Sc4 43.Lf2 Txa3 44.Kg3 Th1 45.Kg2 Th8 46.Sd3 Tha8 47.Sc5 c2 48.Kg3 Tc3 
  -+  (-2.20)   Tiefe: 34/60   00:02:07  2777MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.09 ++)   Tiefe: 35/51   00:02:14  2940MN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.gxh5 Tf3 29.h4 Th3 30.Sd2 Sb6 31.e5 Txh4 32.Sf1 Txh5 33.Sg3 Th4 34.Sf5 Lxf5 35.Dxf5 Tc6 36.Kf1 Th1+ 37.Kg2 Ta1 38.Dc2 Te1 39.Kf3 c3 40.Kf4 Th1 41.Kf3 Th4 42.e6 Txe6 43.Dxc3 Sc4 44.Kg3 Tee4 45.Kg2 f6 
  -+  (-2.26)   Tiefe: 35/51   00:02:52  3774MN
...
25.Dc2 
  -+  (-1.88 ++)   Tiefe: 36/63   00:04:23  5750MN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.Sa3 Sb6 27.Sb1 c3 28.Kh2 Tc4 29.e4 Ta8 30.Lc1 Tac8 31.Dd3 dxe4 32.Dxe4 Lc6 33.Df5 h6 34.Dd3 Ld5 35.f3 Sa4 36.Sa3 Txb4 37.Dc2 Lc4 38.Kg3 Le6 39.d5 Lxd5 40.Sxb5 Txb5 41.Dxa4 Tb2 42.Dd4 Tb1 43.Dxd5 Txc1 44.Db7 
  -+  (-2.35)   Tiefe: 36/63   00:05:26  7113MN
...
25.Sc3 Sxc3 26.Dxc3 f5 27.e4 fxe4 28.a3 Tc6 29.Lc1 h6 30.Dg3 c3 31.De5 Le6 32.h4 Te8 33.g5 Lf7 34.Df5 hxg5 35.hxg5 Le6 36.De5 g6 37.Le3 Lf7 38.Df4 c2 39.Lc1 Tc3 40.Kg2 Td3 41.Dc7 Txd4 42.Dxc2 Tc4 43.Dd1 d4 44.Lb2 d3 45.Lc1 Tc2 46.Le3 
  -+  (-2.12)   Tiefe: 37/112   00:06:05  7964MN
25.Sc3 
  -+  (-2.01 ++)   Tiefe: 38/45   00:06:13  8134MN
25.Sc3 Sxc3 26.Dxc3 f5 27.e4 fxe4 28.a3 Tc6 29.Lc1 h6 30.Dg3 c3 31.De5 Le6 32.h4 Kh7 33.g5 h5 34.Kf1 Kg6 35.Ke1 Te8 36.Le3 c2 37.Lc1 Td8 38.Kf1 Tdc8 39.Ke1 Kh7 40.Kd2 Tf8 41.Ke1 Tf3 42.g6+ Kxg6 43.Dg5+ Kf7 44.Dxh5+ Kf8 45.Dh8+ Lg8 46.Dh5 Tff6 47.Dg5 
  -+  (-1.98)   Tiefe: 38/56   00:06:28  8449MN
...
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.gxh5 Tf3 29.h4 Th3 30.Sd2 Sb6 31.e5 Txh4 32.Sf3 Txh5 33.Sg5 Tc6 34.De2 Th4 35.Df3 f6 36.e6 Le8 37.Sh3 c3 38.Dg3 Sc4 39.Lf4 Th5 40.Dxc3 g5 41.Dg3 Txe6 42.Le3 Kf8 43.Kg2 Th4 44.Sg1 Ta6 45.Lc1 Txd4 46.Se2 Th4 47.Kf1 Txa2 
  -+  (-2.49)   Tiefe: 39/68   00:11:05  14460MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.38 ++)   Tiefe: 40/73   00:14:26  18802MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.28 ++)   Tiefe: 40/73   00:15:12  19778MN
25.Ld6 Ta6 26.Lc5 h5 27.g5 Lxh3 28.e4 dxe4 29.Sc3 Sxc3 30.Dxc3 e3 31.Dxe3 Le6 32.d5 Lxd5 33.De5 Lf3 34.Df5 Lg4 35.Dd5 Tg6 36.Kh2 Le6 37.Dd2 f6 38.gxf6 Txf6 39.Dc2 Tf4 40.Kg3 Tg4+ 41.Kh2 Tg5 42.Dd2 Td5 43.De3 Lf7 44.Kg2 Td1 45.De5 
  -+  (-2.60)   Tiefe: 40/73   00:16:24  21334MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.49 ++)   Tiefe: 41/57   00:19:07  24859MN
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kh2 f6 31.e4 dxe4 32.fxe4 Lxg4 33.Df1 Sxa3 34.Se3 Le6 35.Sd5 Ta7 36.Sb6 Tc6 37.Sd5 c2 38.Lc1 Sc4 39.De2 Tc8 40.Sf4 Ta1 41.Sd3 Sb6 42.Dd2 Lf7 43.d5 Ta2 44.Df4 Sc4 45.Kg2 Taa8 46.Sc5 Td8 47.Kf2 Te8 48.Dg3 Ta1 49.Sb3 
  -+  (-2.56)   Tiefe: 41/59   00:20:27  26607MN
...
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.41 ++)   Tiefe: 42/62   00:25:35  33290MN
25.Sd2 h5 26.gxh5 c3 27.Sb3 c2 28.Kh2 Sc3 29.Le5 Tc6 30.Dg1 f6 31.h6 g5 32.Lxf6 g4 33.Lg5 Kh7 34.Lf4 Tg6 35.Da1 Sd1 36.h4 Sxf2 37.Df1 Tf8 38.Dxf2 g3+ 39.Dxg3 Txg3 40.Kxg3 Tg8+ 41.Lg5 Ta8 42.Sc1 Lf5 43.Kf2 Ta4 44.Ke1 Txb4 45.Kd2 Tb1 46.h5 Le4 47.Lf4 Tb4 48.Se2 Ta4 49.Sc3 Tc4 50.Se2 Tb4 51.Lg5 Lf5 52.Sc1 Ta4 
  -+  (-2.73)   Tiefe: 42/88   00:27:38  35977MN
...
25.Sd2 h5 26.gxh5 c3 27.Sb3 c2 28.Kh2 Sc3 29.Le5 Tc6 30.Dg1 f6 31.h6 g5 32.Lxf6 g4 33.Lg5 Kh7 34.Dc1 Sxa2 35.Dg1 Tg8 36.h4 Tf8 37.Dg3 Tf7 38.De5 c1D 39.Sxc1 Txc1 40.Lf4 Sc3 41.h5 Tf1 42.Kg2 Te1 43.Kh2 Tc1 44.e4 Tc2 45.Lg3 Sxe4 46.Dxd5 Te7 47.Lh4 g3+ 48.Lxg3 Sxf2 49.Lxf2 Txf2+ 50.Kg3 Tff7 51.Dd6 Lf5 52.Dc6 
  -+  (-2.65)   Tiefe: 43/74   00:29:22  38217MN
So I guess, the objective difference between 24...c3 and ...Rec8 get's some smaller one more time.
Peter.

zullil
Posts: 5683
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by zullil » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:37 pm

peter wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:15 am
Hi Lous!
zullil wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:08 pm
A deep new search with Stockfish-dev suggests that c3 might indeed be the "best" move here:

-3.69 1... c3 2. Na3 Rec8 3. Nc2 Nb2 4. a3 h5 5. f3 hxg4 6. hxg4 Nc4 7. Kh2 Ra6 8. Kg3 f6 9. e4 dxe4 10. fxe4 Be8 11. d5 Bg6 12. a4 Rxa4 13. Nd4 c2 14. Qxc2 Ra3+ 15. Kf2 Rca8 16. Ne2 Ra2 17. Qd1 Nb2 18. Qd4 R8a3 19. Bc1 Nd3+ 20. Kf1 Rxe2 21. Kxe2 Nxc1+ 22. Kf1 Rf3+ 23. Kg2 Rd3 24. Qb6 Bxe4+ 25. Kg1 Kh7 26. Qxb5 Bxd5 27. Kf2 Kh6 28. Qd7 g6 29. Ke1 Rd4 30. Kf2 Kg5 31. b5 Rd1 32. Qc7 Nd3+ 33. Ke2 Rc1 34. Qd6 Nf4+ 35. Ke3 Rc3+ 36. Kd4 Rc4+ 37. Ke3 Re4+ 38. Kd2 Rd4+ 39. Kc3 Rc4+ 40. Kb3 Rc6+ 41. Qxd5+ Nxd5 42. bxc6 Kf4 43. Kc4 Ke5 44. Kc5 Nc7 45. Kb6 Kd6 46. Kb7 Ne6 (depth 56, 11:13:21)

-2.92 1... Rec8 2. Nd2 c3 3. Nb3 c2 4. Nc5 Nxc5 5. dxc5 Rxa2 6. Be5 d4 7. exd4 Bc6 8. d5 Bxd5 9. Qg5 f6 10. Bxf6 c1=Q+ 11. Qxc1 gxf6 12. Qd1 Rd8 13. c6 Raa8 14. c7 Rd7 15. Qd4 Kg7 16. g5 Kg8 17. h4 fxg5 18. Kh2 Rc8 19. Qf6 Rcxc7 20. Qxg5+ Kf7 21. Qf5+ Ke7 22. Qe5+ Be6 23. Qg7+ Bf7 24. Qe5+ Kd8 25. Qxb5 Rc4 26. Qb8+ Ke7 27. Kg3 Rd3+ 28. f3 Rcc3 29. Qe5+ Be6 30. Qg7+ Kd6 31. Qf6 Rxf3+ 32. Qxf3 Rxf3+ 33. Kxf3 Kc6 34. b5+ Kxb5 35. Kg3 Kc4 36. Kf4 Bd5 37. Ke5 Kc5 38. Kf6 Kd4 (depth 56, 11:13:21)
Found some enhancement for 24...Rec8 25.Nd2 with 25...h5!

Output after some Forward Backward of corresponding lines at the positions after 24...Rec8:



Analysis by Cfish 050819 x64 POP:

Code: Select all

25.Dc2 Ta6 26.g5 c3 27.h4 Tc4 28.Sa3 
  -+  (-1.85)   Tiefe: 7/6   00:00:00  11kN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.Kg2 c3 27.Sa3 Sb2 28.Sb1 Sd3 29.Dxd3 c2 
  -+  (-1.79)   Tiefe: 8/9   00:00:00  16kN
25.Kg2 c3 26.Ld6 c2 27.Sa3 Sc3 28.Sxc2 
  -/+  (-1.28)   Tiefe: 9/10   00:00:00  30kN
25.Kg2 c3 26.Ld6 c2 27.Sa3 Sc3 28.Sxc2 Txa2 29.Lc5 h5 30.e4 Sxe4 31.f3 Sc3 32.Dd2 Sb1 33.Dc1 Sa3 
  -+  (-1.84)   Tiefe: 10/18   00:00:00  78kN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.Lg5 c3 27.Le7 h5 28.gxh5 Th6 29.Lc5 Lxh3 30.Sxc3 Sxc3 31.Dxc3 Tcc6 32.f3 Txh5 
  -+  (-1.85)   Tiefe: 11/29   00:00:00  134kN
25.Ld6 Ta6 26.Lc5 h5 27.f3 Te8 28.Kf2 Sxc5 29.dxc5 Txa2+ 30.Kg3 Te2 31.Sc3 T2xe3 32.Sxd5 h4+ 33.Kxh4 
  -+  (-1.86)   Tiefe: 12/29   00:00:00  220kN
25.Ld6 Ta6 26.Lc5 h5 27.gxh5 Lxh3 28.Sd2 Th6 29.Sf1 Txh5 30.Sg3 Th6 31.Dc2 Tg6 32.Kh2 Ld7 33.Sf5 Lxf5 34.Dxf5 Tcc6 
  -+  (-1.86)   Tiefe: 13/29   00:00:00  339kN
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 h5 27.f3 Sb2 28.a3 Sc4 29.gxh5 Lf5 30.Kh2 Sd2 31.Kg3 Lxc2 32.Dxc2 Tc4 33.h6 g6 34.e4 dxe4 35.Lxd2 cxd2 36.Dxd2 Txa3 
  -+  (-1.84)   Tiefe: 14/29   00:00:00  507kN
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 Sc4 29.gxh5 Lf5 30.Kh2 Lxc2 31.Dxc2 Sxa3 32.Df5 c2 33.e4 c1T 34.Lxc1 Txc1 35.Dxd5 
  -/+  (-1.53)   Tiefe: 15/31   00:00:00  613kN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 h5 27.f3 Sb2 28.a3 Sc4 29.gxh5 Lf5 30.Kh2 Lxc2 31.Dxc2 Sxa3 32.Df5 c2 33.e4 c1L 34.Lxc1 Txc1 35.Dxd5 Tac8 36.e5 T1c6 37.Dd7 Sc4 38.Kg3 Sd2 39.e6 fxe6 40.h6 T8c7 41.De8+ Kh7 42.hxg7 Kxg7 43.d5 Tc3 44.dxe6 Txf3+ 45.Kg2 Tf6 46.Dd8 Tg6+ 47.Kh2 Sf3+ 48.Kh1 
  -+  (-1.84)   Tiefe: 24/47   00:00:01  28771kN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.g5 Tf3 29.Sd2 Txh3 30.exd5 Sb6 31.g6 Sxd5 32.De4 Sxe3 33.De7 Le8 34.gxf7+ Lxf7 35.Dd7 Te8 36.Dxh3 c3 37.Sb3 Lxb3 38.Dd7 Ta8 39.fxe3 c2 40.Dc6 Kh7 41.Dc3 Txa2 42.e4 Lf7 
  -+  (-1.97)   Tiefe: 25/47   00:00:03  62258kN
...
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.g5 Tf3 29.Kg2 Txh3 30.Sc3 Sxc3 31.Dxc3 dxe4 32.a4 bxa4 33.b5 Txe3 34.Dxe3 Lxb5 35.Dh3 La6 36.Dc3 Ta8 37.g6 fxg6 38.Da5 Kh7 39.Dxa4 e3 40.Kf1 Lb7 41.Db4 Le4 42.Dxc4 Tf8 43.d5 Txf2+ 44.Ke1 Lf3 45.Df4 Lxd5 46.Dxe3 Tf5 47.Dd4 Lf3 48.Dc4 
  -+  (-1.84)   Tiefe: 33/52   00:01:22  1791MN
25.Dc2 Ta6 
  -+  (-1.95 --)   Tiefe: 34/60   00:01:42  2222MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-1.84 ++)   Tiefe: 34/60   00:01:47  2334MN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 h5 27.f3 hxg4 28.hxg4 Sb2 29.a3 Sc4 30.Kf2 f6 31.Dd1 g5 32.Lg3 Le8 33.f4 Lg6 34.f5 Lf7 35.Dc1 Te8 36.Kf3 Kg7 37.De1 Sd2+ 38.Kg2 Th8 39.De2 Le8 40.Dd1 Th6 41.Dc1 Lf7 42.Se1 Sc4 43.Lf2 Txa3 44.Kg3 Th1 45.Kg2 Th8 46.Sd3 Tha8 47.Sc5 c2 48.Kg3 Tc3 
  -+  (-2.20)   Tiefe: 34/60   00:02:07  2777MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.09 ++)   Tiefe: 35/51   00:02:14  2940MN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.gxh5 Tf3 29.h4 Th3 30.Sd2 Sb6 31.e5 Txh4 32.Sf1 Txh5 33.Sg3 Th4 34.Sf5 Lxf5 35.Dxf5 Tc6 36.Kf1 Th1+ 37.Kg2 Ta1 38.Dc2 Te1 39.Kf3 c3 40.Kf4 Th1 41.Kf3 Th4 42.e6 Txe6 43.Dxc3 Sc4 44.Kg3 Tee4 45.Kg2 f6 
  -+  (-2.26)   Tiefe: 35/51   00:02:52  3774MN
...
25.Dc2 
  -+  (-1.88 ++)   Tiefe: 36/63   00:04:23  5750MN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.Sa3 Sb6 27.Sb1 c3 28.Kh2 Tc4 29.e4 Ta8 30.Lc1 Tac8 31.Dd3 dxe4 32.Dxe4 Lc6 33.Df5 h6 34.Dd3 Ld5 35.f3 Sa4 36.Sa3 Txb4 37.Dc2 Lc4 38.Kg3 Le6 39.d5 Lxd5 40.Sxb5 Txb5 41.Dxa4 Tb2 42.Dd4 Tb1 43.Dxd5 Txc1 44.Db7 
  -+  (-2.35)   Tiefe: 36/63   00:05:26  7113MN
...
25.Sc3 Sxc3 26.Dxc3 f5 27.e4 fxe4 28.a3 Tc6 29.Lc1 h6 30.Dg3 c3 31.De5 Le6 32.h4 Te8 33.g5 Lf7 34.Df5 hxg5 35.hxg5 Le6 36.De5 g6 37.Le3 Lf7 38.Df4 c2 39.Lc1 Tc3 40.Kg2 Td3 41.Dc7 Txd4 42.Dxc2 Tc4 43.Dd1 d4 44.Lb2 d3 45.Lc1 Tc2 46.Le3 
  -+  (-2.12)   Tiefe: 37/112   00:06:05  7964MN
25.Sc3 
  -+  (-2.01 ++)   Tiefe: 38/45   00:06:13  8134MN
25.Sc3 Sxc3 26.Dxc3 f5 27.e4 fxe4 28.a3 Tc6 29.Lc1 h6 30.Dg3 c3 31.De5 Le6 32.h4 Kh7 33.g5 h5 34.Kf1 Kg6 35.Ke1 Te8 36.Le3 c2 37.Lc1 Td8 38.Kf1 Tdc8 39.Ke1 Kh7 40.Kd2 Tf8 41.Ke1 Tf3 42.g6+ Kxg6 43.Dg5+ Kf7 44.Dxh5+ Kf8 45.Dh8+ Lg8 46.Dh5 Tff6 47.Dg5 
  -+  (-1.98)   Tiefe: 38/56   00:06:28  8449MN
...
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.gxh5 Tf3 29.h4 Th3 30.Sd2 Sb6 31.e5 Txh4 32.Sf3 Txh5 33.Sg5 Tc6 34.De2 Th4 35.Df3 f6 36.e6 Le8 37.Sh3 c3 38.Dg3 Sc4 39.Lf4 Th5 40.Dxc3 g5 41.Dg3 Txe6 42.Le3 Kf8 43.Kg2 Th4 44.Sg1 Ta6 45.Lc1 Txd4 46.Se2 Th4 47.Kf1 Txa2 
  -+  (-2.49)   Tiefe: 39/68   00:11:05  14460MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.38 ++)   Tiefe: 40/73   00:14:26  18802MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.28 ++)   Tiefe: 40/73   00:15:12  19778MN
25.Ld6 Ta6 26.Lc5 h5 27.g5 Lxh3 28.e4 dxe4 29.Sc3 Sxc3 30.Dxc3 e3 31.Dxe3 Le6 32.d5 Lxd5 33.De5 Lf3 34.Df5 Lg4 35.Dd5 Tg6 36.Kh2 Le6 37.Dd2 f6 38.gxf6 Txf6 39.Dc2 Tf4 40.Kg3 Tg4+ 41.Kh2 Tg5 42.Dd2 Td5 43.De3 Lf7 44.Kg2 Td1 45.De5 
  -+  (-2.60)   Tiefe: 40/73   00:16:24  21334MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.49 ++)   Tiefe: 41/57   00:19:07  24859MN
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kh2 f6 31.e4 dxe4 32.fxe4 Lxg4 33.Df1 Sxa3 34.Se3 Le6 35.Sd5 Ta7 36.Sb6 Tc6 37.Sd5 c2 38.Lc1 Sc4 39.De2 Tc8 40.Sf4 Ta1 41.Sd3 Sb6 42.Dd2 Lf7 43.d5 Ta2 44.Df4 Sc4 45.Kg2 Taa8 46.Sc5 Td8 47.Kf2 Te8 48.Dg3 Ta1 49.Sb3 
  -+  (-2.56)   Tiefe: 41/59   00:20:27  26607MN
...
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.41 ++)   Tiefe: 42/62   00:25:35  33290MN
25.Sd2 h5 26.gxh5 c3 27.Sb3 c2 28.Kh2 Sc3 29.Le5 Tc6 30.Dg1 f6 31.h6 g5 32.Lxf6 g4 33.Lg5 Kh7 34.Lf4 Tg6 35.Da1 Sd1 36.h4 Sxf2 37.Df1 Tf8 38.Dxf2 g3+ 39.Dxg3 Txg3 40.Kxg3 Tg8+ 41.Lg5 Ta8 42.Sc1 Lf5 43.Kf2 Ta4 44.Ke1 Txb4 45.Kd2 Tb1 46.h5 Le4 47.Lf4 Tb4 48.Se2 Ta4 49.Sc3 Tc4 50.Se2 Tb4 51.Lg5 Lf5 52.Sc1 Ta4 
  -+  (-2.73)   Tiefe: 42/88   00:27:38  35977MN
...
25.Sd2 h5 26.gxh5 c3 27.Sb3 c2 28.Kh2 Sc3 29.Le5 Tc6 30.Dg1 f6 31.h6 g5 32.Lxf6 g4 33.Lg5 Kh7 34.Dc1 Sxa2 35.Dg1 Tg8 36.h4 Tf8 37.Dg3 Tf7 38.De5 c1D 39.Sxc1 Txc1 40.Lf4 Sc3 41.h5 Tf1 42.Kg2 Te1 43.Kh2 Tc1 44.e4 Tc2 45.Lg3 Sxe4 46.Dxd5 Te7 47.Lh4 g3+ 48.Lxg3 Sxf2 49.Lxf2 Txf2+ 50.Kg3 Tff7 51.Dd6 Lf5 52.Dc6 
  -+  (-2.65)   Tiefe: 43/74   00:29:22  38217MN
So I guess, the objective difference between 24...c3 and ...Rec8 get's some smaller one more time.
Hi Peter,

This is very interesting. My Stockfish-dev now agrees that 25. Nd2 should be met with 25...h5. In fact, the response is strong enough that 25. Nd2 has been replaced with 25. Na3. So now I have 24...Rec8 25. Na3 c3, and so 24...c3 and 24...Rec8 are back to being equivalent by transposition. Can you confirm this?

Louis

peter
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by peter » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:19 pm

zullil wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:37 pm
My Stockfish-dev now agrees that 25. Nd2 should be met with 25...h5. In fact, the response is strong enough that 25. Nd2 has been replaced with 25. Na3. So now I have 24...Rec8 25. Na3 c3, and so 24...c3 and 24...Rec8 are back to being equivalent by transposition. Can you confirm this?
Not quite, Louis.
If you look at the output in the posting you answered to, 25.Na3 arises but is left again.
Anyhow, it seems to be very close to 25.Nd2, so the transposition to 24...c3 25.Na3 Rec8, 24...Rec8 25.Na3 c3 might be about as good as 24...Rec8 25.Nd2 h5.
Up to now I'd say, 24...c3 and 24...Rec8 are very close to each other as for winning probability and -length.
Peter.

zullil
Posts: 5683
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by zullil » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:19 pm

peter wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:19 pm
zullil wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:37 pm
My Stockfish-dev now agrees that 25. Nd2 should be met with 25...h5. In fact, the response is strong enough that 25. Nd2 has been replaced with 25. Na3. So now I have 24...Rec8 25. Na3 c3, and so 24...c3 and 24...Rec8 are back to being equivalent by transposition. Can you confirm this?
Not quite, Louis.
If you look at the output in the posting you answered to, 25.Na3 arises but is left again.
Anyhow, it seems to be very close to 25.Nd2, so the transposition to 24...c3 25.Na3 Rec8, 24...Rec8 25.Na3 c3 might be about as good as 24...Rec8 25.Nd2 h5.
Up to now I'd say, 24...c3 and 24...Rec8 are very close to each other as for winning probability and -length.
Here's what Stockfish-dev gives with MultiPV = 2 in the position after 24...Rec8 25. Nd2



-3.31 2... h5 3. gxh5 c3 4. Nb3 c2 5. Nc5 Bf5 6. e4 Bxe4 7. f3 Bf5 8. Qa1 f6 9. Kf2 Kf7 10. Nb7 Ra6 11. Nc5 Ra7 12. h6 gxh6 13. Nxa4 Rxa4 14. a3 h5 15. h4 Rc4 16. Bc1 Ra8 17. Qb2 Bh3 18. Kg3 Bd7 19. Kf2 Rac8 20. a4 bxa4 21. b5 Ra8 22. Qa3 Bxb5 23. Qd6 Bc6 24. Qc7+ Ke6 25. Ba3 Re8 26. Qd6+ Kf5 27. Bc1 Ra8 28. Qf4+ Ke6 29. Ba3 Rc3 30. Bb2 c1=Q 31. Bxc1 a3 32. Qd2 Rb3 33. Qe1+ Kd6 34. Bd2 Rb2 (depth 50, 2:27:32)

-2.84 2... c3 3. Nb3 c2 4. Nc5 Nxc5 5. dxc5 Rxa2 6. Be5 d4 7. exd4 Bc6 8. d5 Bxd5 9. Qg5 f6 10. Bxf6 c1=Q+ 11. Qxc1 gxf6 12. Qd1 Rd8 13. c6 Raa8 14. c7 Rd7 15. Qd3 Rc8 16. Qf5 Rcxc7 17. Qxf6 Rc6 18. Qe5 Rcd6 19. Kh2 h6 20. Qe8+ Kg7 21. Qe5+ Kf7 22. Kg3 Re6 23. Qd4 Bc6 24. Qc3 Rd1 25. Kh4 Rdd6 26. f4 Re4 27. f5 Bd7 28. Kh5 Red4 29. Qb3+ Kf8 30. Kh4 R4d5 31. Qe3 Kf7 32. Qb3 Kg8 33. Qa2 Be8 34. Qa7 (depth 50, 2:27:32)

User avatar
Master Om
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:57 am
Location: INDIA

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by Master Om » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:20 am

Glarean wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:26 am
jorose wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:11 pm
I can't help but mention one issue I have with your article. You compare depth and nodes of Leela with other engines, which mean completely different things in MCTS and AB engines.
Thanks for your feedbach - but my tournament report wasn't about Leela's "depth and nodes" comparison with other engines.
It's actually a simple matter:
I organized a engines tournament; the A/B's got their best conditions, and the NN's got their best conditions. At the end I added up - basta :-)
https://glarean-magazin.ch/2019/08/24/s ... ogramming/

Greetings: Walter

BTW: Can I download your "Winter" UCI-Engine?
Honey X Pro get its too...

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[Analysis "Honey XPro"]
[AnalysisTime "139"]
[FEN "r3r1k1/3b1ppp/8/1p1p4/nPpP1BP1/4P2P/P4P2/1NQ3K1 b - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1... c3 2. Na3 Rec8 3. Nc2 Nb6 4. a3 Nc4 5. Bg3 Ra6 6. Kg2 h6 7. Bf4 Be6 8. f3
Bd7 9. e4 dxe4 10. fxe4 Rca8 11. Bg3 Re8 12. e5 Bc6+ 13. Kf2 Rea8 14. Kg1 Rc8
15. Qe1 Nd2 16. Qe2 Be4 17. Qxb5 {(0:02:19) 1966975kN}{[%eval -98,27,Honey
XPro][%meval 139s|TB:630]} *
Always Expect the Unexpected

peter
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: 29 Alpha-Beta's against Leela...

Post by peter » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:01 am

zullil wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:19 pm
Here's what Stockfish-dev gives with MultiPV = 2 in the position after 24...Rec8 25. Nd2



-3.31 2... h5 3. gxh5 c3 4. Nb3 c2 5. Nc5 Bf5 6. e4 Bxe4 7. f3 Bf5 8. Qa1 f6 9. Kf2 Kf7 10. Nb7 Ra6 11. Nc5 Ra7 12. h6 gxh6 13. Nxa4 Rxa4 14. a3 h5 15. h4 Rc4 16. Bc1 Ra8 17. Qb2 Bh3 18. Kg3 Bd7 19. Kf2 Rac8 20. a4 bxa4 21. b5 Ra8 22. Qa3 Bxb5 23. Qd6 Bc6 24. Qc7+ Ke6 25. Ba3 Re8 26. Qd6+ Kf5 27. Bc1 Ra8 28. Qf4+ Ke6 29. Ba3 Rc3 30. Bb2 c1=Q 31. Bxc1 a3 32. Qd2 Rb3 33. Qe1+ Kd6 34. Bd2 Rb2 (depth 50, 2:27:32)

-2.84 2... c3 3. Nb3 c2 4. Nc5 Nxc5 5. dxc5 Rxa2 6. Be5 d4 7. exd4 Bc6 8. d5 Bxd5 9. Qg5 f6 10. Bxf6 c1=Q+ 11. Qxc1 gxf6 12. Qd1 Rd8 13. c6 Raa8 14. c7 Rd7 15. Qd3 Rc8 16. Qf5 Rcxc7 17. Qxf6 Rc6 18. Qe5 Rcd6 19. Kh2 h6 20. Qe8+ Kg7 21. Qe5+ Kf7 22. Kg3 Re6 23. Qd4 Bc6 24. Qc3 Rd1 25. Kh4 Rdd6 26. f4 Re4 27. f5 Bd7 28. Kh5 Red4 29. Qb3+ Kf8 30. Kh4 R4d5 31. Qe3 Kf7 32. Qb3 Kg8 33. Qa2 Be8 34. Qa7 (depth 50, 2:27:32)
And here I did let SF run over night at 24...Rec8 again.

Analysis by Brainfish 210819 64 POPCNT:


Code: Select all

25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 
  -/+  (-1.50)   Tiefe: 7/9   00:00:00  38kN
...
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.f3 c3 27.Lg3 Te6 28.Sa3 Txe3 29.Kf2 Te6 30.Lf4 Tce8 31.Sb1 f6 32.h4 Te1 33.Sxc3 Sxc3 34.Dxc3 T8e2+ 35.Kg3 Tg1+ 36.Kh3 Th1+ 37.Kg3 
  -+  (-1.89)   Tiefe: 14/26   00:00:00  1050kN
25.f3 c3 26.Dc2 Ta6 27.Lg3 Te6 28.Sa3 Txe3 29.Kf2 Te6 30.Lf4 h6 31.h4 Ta6 32.Lc1 Te8 33.Sb1 Tc6 34.Sa3 Tf6 
  -+  (-1.71)   Tiefe: 15/31   00:00:00  1299kN
25.Lg3 c3 26.Dc2 Ta6 27.f3 Te6 28.Sa3 Txe3 29.Kf2 Te6 30.Lf4 Tce8 31.Sb1 Ta6 32.Lc1 Tc8 33.Sa3 h6 34.h4 Sb6 35.Kg3 Ta4 36.Db3 f6 37.h5 Sc4 38.Sxc4 Txc4 
  -+  (-1.63)   Tiefe: 16/31   00:00:00  1833kN
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.e5 Tf3 29.Kg2 hxg4 30.hxg4 Lxg4 31.Sd2 Lf5 32.Dc1 Th3 33.Sf1 Th4 34.f3 Lh3+ 35.Kf2 Lxf1 36.Dxf1 Tc6 37.Kg3 Th8 
  -+  (-2.44)   Tiefe: 17/32   00:00:00  4477kN
...
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.Sd2 hxg4 29.h4 Ta6 30.h5 Sb6 31.Sb1 c3 32.e5 Tc4 33.Lc1 Sa4 34.Dd3 g3 35.fxg3 c2 36.Sa3 Tc3 37.Df1 Txg3+ 38.Kf2 Th3 39.e6 Lxe6 40.Dxb5 Ta8 41.Dc6 Tc8 42.Dxa4 Th1 43.Lf4 c1D 44.Lxc1 Tcxc1 45.b5 Th2+ 46.Kg3 Txa2 47.Db3 Tg1+ 48.Kf4 Th2 49.Ke5 Th3 
  -+  (-2.31)   Tiefe: 33/55   00:00:28  564MN
25.Dc2 Ta6 
  -+  (-2.42 --)   Tiefe: 34/16   00:00:34  683MN
25.Kh2 
  -+  (-2.31 ++)   Tiefe: 34/51   00:00:55  1117MN
25.Dc2 
  -+  (-2.16 ++)   Tiefe: 34/56   00:00:59  1182MN
...
25.Dc2 Ta6 26.e4 Tf6 27.Le3 h5 28.g5 Tf3 29.Sa3 Txh3 30.Kg2 dxe4 31.Dxe4 Sc3 32.De5 Th4 33.f3 Te8 34.Dc7 Le6 35.Lf2 Sd5 36.Dc6 Tc8 37.Dxc8+ Lxc8 38.Lxh4 Ld7 39.Le1 Kh7 40.Sb1 Kg6 41.Kg3 Se7 42.Kf2 h4 43.Sc3 Kxg5 44.d5 h3 45.Ld2+ Kg6 46.Se2 Lf5 
  -+  (-2.43)   Tiefe: 36/58   00:01:55  2314MN
25.Dc2 
  -+  (-2.32 ++)   Tiefe: 37/21   00:01:59  2407MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.21 ++)   Tiefe: 37/65   00:02:42  3268MN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kf2 f6 31.Dd1 g5 32.Lg3 Le8 33.f4 Lg6 34.f5 Lf7 35.Dc1 Kg7 36.Kg2 Te8 37.Lf2 Sd2 38.Le1 Se4 39.Lg3 Th8 40.Se1 Th6 41.Sd3 Tc8 42.Dc2 Sxg3 43.Kxg3 Te8 44.Dc1 c2 45.Sf2 Tc8 46.Kf3 Th2 47.Ke2 Tc3 48.Kf3 Kf8 49.Ke2 Ke7 
  -+  (-2.16)   Tiefe: 37/65   00:03:37  4392MN
...
25.Sd2 h5 26.gxh5 c3 27.Sb3 c2 28.Kh2 Sc3 29.Le5 Tc6 30.Dg1 f6 31.Lf4 Lf5 32.h6 g6 33.e4 Sxe4 34.Df1 Tc4 35.f3 c1T 36.Sxc1 Tc2+ 37.Kg1 Sf2 38.Dxf2 Txf2 39.Kxf2 g5 40.Ld2 Lxh3 41.Se2 Txa2 42.Ke1 Kh7 43.Sc3 Ta1+ 44.Kf2 Le6 45.Sxb5 Ta2 46.Ke3 Lf7 47.Ke2 Kxh6 48.Sd6 Lh5 49.Sf5+ Kh7 
  -+  (-2.06)   Tiefe: 41/105   00:14:55  18314MN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kh2 f6 31.e4 dxe4 32.fxe4 Lxg4 33.Df1 Sxa3 34.Se3 Le6 35.Dg2 c2 36.Sf5 Lxf5 37.exf5 Td8 38.d5 Tac8 39.Lc1 Sb1 40.De2 Sc3 41.De6+ Kh7 42.d6 Tc6 43.De3 Sd5 44.Dh3+ Kg8 45.Dd3 Tdxd6 46.Dxb5 Kf7 47.Db8 Td7 48.b5 Tc4 49.b6 Se7 50.b7 Tb4 51.Da7 Tbxb7 
  -+  (-2.71)   Tiefe: 42/83   00:27:47  34010MN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kh2 f6 31.e4 dxe4 32.fxe4 Lxg4 33.Df1 Sxa3 34.Se3 Le6 35.Sd5 Ta7 36.Sb6 Tc6 37.Sd5 c2 38.Lc1 Sc4 39.Sf4 Lf7 40.Dg2 Tca6 41.Dg4 Ta8 42.Sh5 Lxh5 43.Dxh5 Td6 44.Dc5 Tad8 45.d5 Te8 46.Dxb5 Txe4 47.Dc5 g5 48.Kg3 Kf7 49.b5 Td7 50.Kf2 Kg6 
  -+  (-2.61)   Tiefe: 43/77   00:30:14  37024MN
...
25.Sd2 h5 26.gxh5 c3 27.Sb3 c2 28.Sc5 Lf5 29.e4 Lxe4 30.f3 Lf5 31.Da1 f6 32.Kf2 Kf7 33.Sb7 Ta6 34.Lc1 Lxh3 35.Sc5 Taa8 36.h6 gxh6 37.Sxa4 bxa4 38.Db2 h5 39.b5 Tg8 40.Ke3 Tae8+ 41.Kf4 h4 42.Dxc2 Th8 43.Dxa4 Th5 44.Dc2 Tf5+ 45.Dxf5 Lxf5 46.Kxf5 h3 47.Lf4 Te2 48.a4 h2 49.Lxh2 Txh2 50.a5 Tb2 51.b6 Tb5 52.Kf4 
  -+  (-2.98)   Tiefe: 44/101   00:48:17  59247MN
...
25.Sd2 h5 26.gxh5 c3 27.Sb3 c2 28.Sc5 Lf5 29.e4 Lxe4 30.f3 Lf5 31.Da1 f6 32.Kf2 Kf7 33.Lc1 Lxh3 34.Sb7 Tc6 35.a3 Lf5 36.Da2 Sc3 37.Db3 Te8 38.Sd6+ Txd6 39.Dxc3 Tde6 40.a4 bxa4 41.Dc5 Te1 42.Dxd5+ Le6 43.Db7+ Kg8 44.h6 gxh6 45.Dc6 Lb3 46.Lb2 T8e2+ 47.Kg3 Tb1 48.La3 Tee1 49.Dxf6 Tg1+ 50.Kf4 c1D+ 51.Lxc1 Tgxc1 52.Dxh6 Lf7 53.Dg5+ Kf8 54.Dd8+ Kg7 
  -+  (-3.11)   Tiefe: 48/78   01:41:50  125551MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-3.00 ++)   Tiefe: 49/73   01:56:56  144168MN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kf2 f6 31.Dg1 g5 32.Lxg5 fxg5 33.Dh2 Kf7 34.Dh7+ Ke6 35.Dg6+ Ke7 36.e4 Kd8 37.Dxg5+ Kc7 38.Df4+ Kb7 39.Df7 Sb6 40.e5 Tc6 41.Dg7 Tc7 42.Df6 Tg8 43.e6 Le8 44.Df4 Tg6 45.Sa1 Txe6 46.Sb3 Tee7 47.Sc5+ Ka7 48.Dc1 Sc4 49.Dxc3 Te3 50.Dxe3 Sxe3 51.Kxe3 Te7+ 52.Kf4 Te1 53.g5 Tf1 54.Ke5 Txf3 55.Kxd5 Txa3 56.Kd6 Lf7 
  -+  (-2.86)   Tiefe: 49/86   01:58:57  146661MN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kf2 f6 31.Dg1 g5 32.Lxg5 fxg5 33.Dh2 Kf7 34.Dh7+ Ke6 35.Dh6+ Ke7 36.Dxg5+ Kd6 37.e4 Kc7 38.Df4+ Kb7 39.Df7 Sb6 40.e5 Tc6 41.Dh5 Sc4 42.Df7 Tc7 43.e6 Lc6 44.Df5 Kb6 45.g5 Te8 46.g6 Tce7 47.Kg3 Tg8 48.Kf2 Teg7 49.Ke2 Txg6 50.Kd3 Tg2 51.Kxc3 Te2 
  -+  (-3.25)   Tiefe: 50/147   03:18:25  245857MN
...
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kf2 f6 31.Dh1 Le8 32.e4 dxe4 33.d5 Lg6 34.d6 Td8 35.Da1 Sxd6 36.Lxd6 Txd6 37.Dxc3 Td3 38.Dc6 Txf3+ 39.Ke2 Td8 40.Dc7 Tfd3 41.Se3 Td2+ 42.Ke1 Kh8 43.Df4 T2d3 44.Sf5 e3 45.Se7 Lh7 46.Sf5 Lxf5 47.Dxf5 T8d5 48.Dc8+ Kh7 49.g5 Txg5 50.Dc2 Tgd5 51.Ke2 Kg6 52.Dxd3+ Txd3 53.Kxd3 e2 54.Kxe2 Kf7 55.Kd2 g5 56.Ke3 Ke6 
  -+  (-3.40)   Tiefe: 51/133   04:06:48  306297MN
...
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-2.82 ++)   Tiefe: 52/119   04:32:35  338573MN
25.Sc3 Sxc3 26.Dxc3 Te8 27.Db2 Ta6 28.Kg2 Tea8 29.De2 h6 30.e4 Te8 31.Lc1 Txe4 32.Dd2 g5 33.f3 Te7 34.Kg1 f5 35.a4 Tae6 36.Kf2 fxg4 37.hxg4 Tf7 38.Kg2 bxa4 39.Kg3 Tg6 40.Dc3 Kg7 41.Da3 Tgf6 42.De3 Te6 43.Dd2 Lb5 44.Dc2 Tf8 45.Dd2 Tff6 46.Dc2 Kg8 47.Dd2 Te7 48.Dc3 Kg7 49.Dd2 Ta6 50.Dc3 Te2 51.f4 gxf4+ 52.Lxf4 a3 
  -+  (-3.46)   Tiefe: 52/152   04:58:14  370714MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-3.36 ++)   Tiefe: 53/91   06:15:42  468058MN
25.Sa3 
  -+  (-3.25 ++)   Tiefe: 53/91   06:15:51  468237MN
25.Sa3 c3 26.Sc2 Sb2 27.a3 h5 28.f3 hxg4 29.hxg4 Sc4 30.Kh2 f6 31.Dd1 g5 32.Lg3 Sxa3 33.f4 Le8 34.fxg5 Sxc2 35.Dxc2 Ta2 36.Dxa2 c2 37.Dxd5+ Lf7 38.Dxb5 c1D 39.Df5 Tc2+ 40.Lf2 Tb2 41.Kg3 Dc7+ 42.Kf3 Dc6+ 43.Kg3 fxg5 44.Dxg5+ Lg6 45.d5 De8 46.d6 Td2 47.Le1 Txd6 48.Lc3 Te6 49.Dd5 De7 50.Le5 Le4 51.Dxe4 Txe5 52.Dg6+ Kf8 53.Dh6+ Ke8 54.Kf4 Kd7 55.Db6 Te4+ 56.Kf3 Txb4 57.Da7+ Ke6 58.Dxe7+ Kxe7 59.g5 Tb1 60.Kg2 Te1 
  -+  (-3.19)   Tiefe: 53/91   06:17:36  470463MN
25.Sa3 c3 
  -+  (-3.30 --)   Tiefe: 54/66   06:38:43  496967MN
24 threads of 12x3GHz, 32G hash, no tbs, started with already full hash after forwarding and backwarding the known best lines.

After 2 hours of switching, 25.Nd2 doesn't come up anymore.
Na3 is kept best for the last four and a half hours except a single line- try with Nc3 after 5 hours.

So 25.Na3 might be best defence for both first moves yet, for 24...c3 as well as for 24...Rec8, latter one just quite as well as the first one therefore as 24th move of Black's, both transposing to each other 2 plies later on.
Peter.

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