The Busted Dutch

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Ozymandias
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ozymandias » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:40 am

I have very little interest in the Dutch, so I'll wait until you address something more relevant to current computer chess opening theory, lke this:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:35 pm
Ozymandias wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:what I am seeing is mostly white wins.
I honestly can't wait, for you to have the time to share with us some details, about those games you mention. Things like TC, CPU, number of threads, syzygy probe depth and limit, starting position...
regarding the Marschall, I can not share anything, as there are endless lines to analyse, but one thing is certain: there is not a single sound black gambit, and the Marschall is a gambit.

after Be3, black has no satisfactory reply, one way or another.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:31 am
15...Be6 certainly should lose, no time now for detailed analysis, but that is more than obvious.

zullil
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:23 am

zullil wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:13 pm

Anyway, guys, I have busted the Dutch.

Really! It's not like I want to steal the spotlight from Lyudmil, but the actual move to play is...

2.Bg5!!
Well, Stockfish-dev doesn't (yet) appreciate the profundity of either 2.d5 or 2.Bg5. It does agree with Lc0 that 2.g3 is likely a good choice. :D

+0.59 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nc3 c6 5. Nf3 e6 6. O-O d5 7. Na4 Bd6 8. c4 Nbd7 9. b3 Qe7 10. Nb2 b6 11. Nd3 O-O 12. Bf4 c5 13. cxd5 exd5 14. Rc1 Ne4 15. h4 Bb7 16. e3 Rac8 17. Bxd6 Qxd6 18. Nf4 Ba6 19. Re1 c4 20. bxc4 Bxc4 21. a4 Qa3 22. Nd2 Qa2 23. Bxe4 fxe4 24. Nxc4 Rxc4 25. Rxc4 dxc4 26. Qg4 Qxa4 27. Ne6 (depth 47, 6:45:57)

+0.54 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. b3 d6 7. Bb2 e6 8. c4 Ne4 9. Nc3 Nc6 10. Rc1 a5 11. Nb5 Bd7 12. e3 Nb4 13. a3 Nd5 14. Nd2 Nxd2 15. Qxd2 Bxb5 16. cxb5 Qd7 17. Qd3 c6 18. bxc6 bxc6 19. Qc2 Rfc8 20. Rfe1 c5 21. Qd2 a4 22. bxa4 c4 23. a5 Qa4 24. Bc3 Qxa3 25. Bxd5 exd5 26. f3 Rab8 (depth 47, 6:45:57)

+0.53 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 c6 4. Bg2 g6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Nc3 Bg7 7. Rb1 O-O 8. O-O Nbd7 9. b3 e5 10. Ng5 Nb6 11. dxe5 dxe5 12. Ba3 Re8 13. e4 Qxd1 14. Rbxd1 f4 15. Bd6 fxg3 16. hxg3 h6 17. Nh3 Be6 18. f3 Nbd7 19. Nf2 Bf8 20. Rd2 h5 21. Bxf8 Kxf8 22. Nh3 Ke7 23. Kf2 Rad8 24. Ng5 Nc5 25. Rdd1 Rd3 26. Rxd3 (depth 47, 6:45:57)
Looks like 2. d5 or 2. Bg5 are too profound for Stockfish:

+0.62 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bb2 d6 6. Bg2 O-O 7. Nh3 c6 8. O-O e5 9. dxe5 Ng4 10. Nc3 dxe5 11. e4 Na6 12. exf5 Bxf5 13. Ne4 Nb4 14. Qe2 Qd3 15. Rae1 Rad8 16. Nhg5 h6 17. Nf3 Qxe2 18. Rxe2 Nc2 19. Nh4 Nd4 20. Bxd4 exd4 21. h3 Ne5 22. Nxf5 gxf5 23. Nc5 d3 24. Rd2 Rf7 25. Rfd1 Re7 26. a3 Kh7 27. Nxd3 Nxd3 28. Rxd3 Rxd3 29. Rxd3 (depth 50, 20:29:42)

+0.56 2. g3 Nf6 3. c4 g6 4. b3 Bg7 5. Bg2 O-O 6. Bb2 d6 7. Nh3 c6 8. O-O e5 9. dxe5 Ng4 10. Nc3 dxe5 11. Qxd8 Rxd8 12. Rad1 Bf6 13. Rxd8+ Bxd8 14. Rd1 Be7 15. Ba3 Bf6 16. Bc1 Kg7 17. f3 Nh6 18. e4 Na6 19. exf5 gxf5 20. Bg5 Nf7 21. Bxf6+ Kxf6 22. f4 Be6 23. fxe5+ Nxe5 24. Nf4 Re8 25. Na4 Ng6 26. Nh5+ Kf7 27. h3 h6 28. Rd2 Ne5 29. Nf4 (depth 50, 20:29:42)

+0.52 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. b3 e6 7. c4 Ne4 8. Qc2 b6 9. Nc3 Bb7 10. Ne5 d5 11. Bb2 Na6 12. cxd5 exd5 13. Nxe4 dxe4 14. f3 Qd5 15. Rad1 Rac8 16. fxe4 fxe4 17. Rxf8+ Rxf8 18. e3 Rd8 19. Bf1 Nb4 20. Qd2 Qd6 21. Bc4+ Bd5 22. a3 Nc6 23. Bxd5+ Qxd5 24. Nxc6 Qxc6 25. d5 Qc5 26. b4 Qc4 27. Bxg7 Kxg7 28. Qd4+ Qxd4 29. Rxd4 Kf6 30. Rc4 h6 31. Rc6+ Kf5 32. Rxc7 Rxd5 33. Rxa7 Rd1+ 34. Kf2 (depth 50, 20:29:42)

Uri Blass
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:40 am

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:13 pm
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:58 pm
I posted 5-6 answers/posts. they were regularly submitted, and now they have disappeared!
They're on page 2 of the thread! When you go back to page 1, they "disappear", as they're hidden from view because there's a maximum of what the forum can show per page! Once you go to page 2, they appear, and all the messages on page 1 "disappear", but they haven't been deleted! They're just hidden from view. You can hide the messages of other pages by moving to a page, and only the messages of that page will be shown, but the messages from other pages haven't been deleted! Just hidden. Your posts are still here.

Anyway, guys, I have busted the Dutch.

Really! It's not like I want to steal the spotlight from Lyudmil, but the actual move to play is...

2.Bg5!!



There we go. I'm playing a corr game against witchesbutt here to try it out, and I already have some 0.60 advantage, though you might need to pump your Contempt to 24 to see it! :lol:

Anyway, I hold that:

2.d5 is not better than 2.Bg5

I wonder if Lyudmil (if he hasn't quit the forum) would be willing to play a corr game with me against his 2.d5. I'm so certain of the unsoundness of 2.d5 that I'm willing to play a new variant of chess I just invented called Score Odds Chess, in where, to beat me all Lyudmil needs to do is reaching a position where Stockfish announces an advantage of 0.20. If white can reach a position where that happens I lose. I already have 0.19 as an insurmountable score limit of my database, where if the advantage is already 0.20, black has done something wrong. Apparently after 1...f5 black has already done something wrong, and I know many people that could easily beat me in this variant, but not with the moves Lyudmil intends to play...

I don't expect Lyudmil to accept, he can either ignore this or have some pretexts to avoid playing a game, but if he does accept, refuting his entire book is tempting...
2.Bg5 is the move larry kaufman suggested in his repertoire for white already in 2012

I guess the dutch is a draw like every popular move.
I doubt if you can find a single losing move that is popular in the opening and by popular I mean that humans above rating of 2300 played it at least in 1000 games in the past.

zullil
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:41 am

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:13 pm

There we go. I'm playing a corr game against witchesbutt here to try it out, and I already have some 0.60 advantage, though you might need to pump your Contempt to 24 to see it! :lol:
Is this the current state of your online game?



"Busted" means that you can draw as White? :shock:

ouachita
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by ouachita » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:53 pm

I won with 2.Bf4
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:12 pm

zullil wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:41 am
"Busted" means that you can draw as White? :shock:
Could you have played better? For any white deviation I have a line that turns worse than the current status of the game. But, probably the "pump your Contempt to 24 to see it! :lol: " wasn't enough to make clear what I was doing in that post, probably should have said Contempt 100 :roll:

I also have a line that equalizes against 2.Bf4, so either ouachita's opponent missed it, or I have a hole in my analysis. I guess we'll never know.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

zullil
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:39 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:12 pm
zullil wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:41 am
"Busted" means that you can draw as White? :shock:
Could you have played better? For any white deviation I have a line that turns worse than the current status of the game. But, probably the "pump your Contempt to 24 to see it! :lol: " wasn't enough to make clear what I was doing in that post, probably should have said Contempt 100 :roll:

I also have a line that equalizes against 2.Bf4, so either ouachita's opponent missed it, or I have a hole in my analysis. I guess we'll never know.
Just seems like a strange use of the word "busted", when referring to a defense. I mean, by playing 2.Bg5 you seem to be passing on moves that offer some chance at winning in favor of a move that seems to offer none. So a defense is "busted" if White can force a draw?

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:53 pm

I was making fun of Lyudmil Tsvetkov, okay? I put a smilie on there and specifically spoke of a score that appears with high Contempt, because for any variation you can increase the contempt and make it show any score. If you remove 0.24 from 0.60 you're left with a score of 0.36, so I busted the Dutch to a score of 0.36 which becomes 0.60 with a Contempt of 24. By now I realize I should have said I busted it to a score of 1.00, but you need to "pump your Contempt to 64 to see it! :lol: " so what I was doing was clear.

Now, while this shows I failed spectacularly at being humorous, at least I showed a line, unlike Lyudmil who talks about generalities about 2.d5, without showing a line that shows great white advantage against a top black defense (or at least a 2300 ICCF level defense.)

I now wonder if Lyudmil faked being unable to find his messages on page 2 of the thread, thinking they were deleted to avoid these discussions...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

zullil
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:08 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:53 pm
I was making fun of Lyudmil Tsvetkov, okay? I put a smilie on there and specifically spoke of a score that appears with high Contempt, because for any variation you can increase the contempt and make it show any score. If you remove 0.24 from 0.60 you're left with a score of 0.36, so I busted the Dutch to a score of 0.36 which becomes 0.60 with a Contempt of 24. By now I realize I should have said I busted it to a score of 1.00, but you need to "pump your Contempt to 64 to see it! :lol: " so what I was doing was clear.

Now, while this shows I failed spectacularly at being humorous, at least I showed a line, unlike Lyudmil who talks about generalities about 2.d5, without showing a line that shows great white advantage against a top black defense (or at least a 2300 ICCF level defense.)

I now wonder if Lyudmil faked being unable to find his messages on page 2 of the thread, thinking they were deleted to avoid these discussions...
No problem. I missed that you were being humorous. Doesn't mean that you failed. Maybe other folks understood fine, and I was simply dense.

Don't want to give your online opponent any ideas, but the current evaluation for your game after 9. Qb3 is 0.00 at depth 52 using MultiPV=3. So I'm hoping you've found something more promising for White that Stockfish-dev currently sees.

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:30 pm

Heh, a 0.00 score.

I actually went and tried my mainline against ChessDB and I was quite impressed about the wide coverage it already had of it. It also showed a 0.00 score. Eventually we were at a "this position doesn't exist, click here to request analysis" thing, an after 5 seconds it was still showing 0.00. But I pushed on, and sure enough, eventually I hit on a move it was missing, and it was very satisfying to see the score jump from 0 to -185. By then it had already adjusted its scores, but it still suggested a losing move on a previous position with a score of 0...

So we will see, I have no problems beating people that just let Stockfish reach high depth and play their move against me, but my opponent in this game isn't like that, so I expect he'll play already better than Stockfish MultiPV=3 at depth 52...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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