The Busted Dutch

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todd
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by todd » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:26 pm

Though this is of little concern to correspondence or engine players, human players who play 1. d4 should also consider that black may play 1...e6, 1...d6, or 1...g6 followed by 2...f5.

Book+engine assisted players can easily transpose to desirable king pawn openings when possible, but this can be a significant theoretical burden for players who don't have time to learn many different lines and prefer to always stay in queen pawn lines.

Those who like to play d4+c4 should be aware that they can get move-orded out of their Bf4/Bg5 line if black doesn't play f5 on move 1, and thus they may just want to play the main line with g3, c4, etc. against all black move orders.

MikeGL
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by MikeGL » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:47 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:51 am
Well, I'll go on record saying that latest Stockfish is insane if it really thinks 2.c4 is 0.85. Maybe Larry is right about some weird scaling happening now.

For contrast here's private Stockfish with learning up to some depth 33. The thing with this version is that, if 2.d5 is best, I can show it the variations and it will learn them, and then 2.d5 will remain at the top, even if I unload the engine and restart my computer. It also uses learning that it has from the positions I've already fed to it, and the price is that it shows really short PVs...

1) 33 86:00 +0.46 2.g3 d6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
1) 33 86:00 +0.46 2.Nf3 Nf6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
3) 33 86:00 +0.43 2.Nh3 Nf6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
4) 33 86:00 +0.37 2.Bg5 (11.413.083.882) 2211
4) 33 86:00 +0.37 2.c4 d6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
6) 33 86:00 +0.36 2.b3 b6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
7) 33 86:00 +0.35 2.e3 g6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
7) 33 86:00 +0.35 2.Bf4 (11.413.083.882) 2211
9) 33 86:00 +0.32 2.h4 d6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
10) 32 86:00 +0.28 2.Nc3 Nf6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
11) 32 86:00 +0.25 2.Nd2 Nf6 3.Ngf3 b6 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Bb7 6.O-O Bg7 7.c4 O-O 8.b4 e6 9.Bb2 Nc6 10.a3 Ne7 (11.413.083.882) 2211
12) 32 86:00 +0.24 2.Qd3 e6 3.c4 Nf6 4.Nc3 b6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
13) 32 86:00 +0.23 2.h3 e6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
13) 32 86:00 +0.23 2.c3 Nf6 3.g3 (11.413.083.882) 2211
15) 32 86:00 +0.22 2.a3 Nf6 3.Bf4 e6 4.e3 Be7 (11.413.083.882) 2211
16) 32 86:00 +0.11 2.a4 Nf6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
16) 32 86:00 +0.11 2.d5 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.dxe6 d5 5.g3 Bxe6 6.Bg2 Nc6 7.O-O Ne4 8.Nc3 Be7 9.h4 a6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
16) 32 86:00 +0.11 2.Bd2 Nf6 3.c4 d6 4.Nf3 g6 5.g3 Bg7 6.Bg2 O-O 7.Nc3 Na6 8.O-O (11.413.083.882) 2211
19) 32 86:00 +0.06 2.b4 e6 3.a3 b6 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c5 6.bxc5 bxc5 7.e3 Be7 8.Bd3 O-O 9.Nc3 Nc6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
ound.

Thanks for this multi-pv line, it actually shows why 2.d5 is a bit useless and using one tempo for nothing.
Your multi-pv analysis showed that this d5 pawn of white will only be exchanged for e6 pawn and hence the extra tempo (d5 push) of white will be gone.

Code: Select all

6) 32 86:00 +0.11 2.d5 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.dxe6 d5 5.g3 Bxe6 6.Bg2 Nc6 7.O-O Ne4 8.Nc3 Be7 9.h4 a6 (11.413.083.882) 2211
This is probably the reason why 2.d5 in Dutch is not favored by engines, and by grandmasters.
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:19 am

zullil wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:17 pm
We can start from here, if you are interested, which Stockfish-dev says is basically even
Sure, we can fork the game. You can pretend that I'm playing my game against your Stockfish-dev and just copy the moves until your Stockfish-dev deviates from my opponent's play (my opponent played 9...O-O, so if Stockfish-dev also plays that, you just need to wait and see what move I play against him.)
ouachita wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:02 pm
Then, let's play. Where, when?
Wherever you want! Sadly, I haven't found a good site where we can go, set up some correspondence time controls, and play. The ICCF doesn't allow direct matching, people from our country have to organize some match :shock: FICGS doesn't allow challenging of correspondence games, only real time controls, so to play there we'd need to join a tourney and also play against the rest of the people there. chess-server.net allows one to create a lobby, so we could create one and play, but it is public, so we have to arrange being there at the same time when game starts, and even then, last time I tried someone else entered the lobby, so I had to play them as well...

Another option is playing without clocks via a forum, on here, or on Rybka Forum Correspondence Chess section, where I played most of my games in my initial years. The problem is the server is now unstable, so it may be offline randomly for +12 hours.

So there's Ozymandias's Forum, that seems to work and is up 24/7, we even had some clock on there, with 2 days per move and 3 strikes (you can pass the move limit twice before flagging.)

But if you have another place where we can play, I'm willing to listen.
Last edited by Ovyron on Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

ouachita
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by ouachita » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:37 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:19 am
zullil wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:17 pm
We can start from here, if you are interested, which Stockfish-dev says is basically even
But if you have another place where we can play, I'm willing to listen.
join chessbase and we should be able to find/friend each other or challenge each other
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

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Graham Banks
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:02 am

I found the following comments on 2.d5

Black seems to have good play after 1.d4 f5 2.d5?! Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.Nc3 cxd 5.cxd Qa5 with a possible b5 and Bb7

As for 1.d4 f5 2.d5, apparently this was examined by S.Z Alapin at the turn of the century. He suggested in some analysis published in Schachfreund, the line…e6! 3.dxe6 d5 4.Nh3 (4.e4?! fxe4 5.Qh5+ g6 6.Qe5 Nf6 7.Bg5 Bg7 8.Nc3 c6 9.0–0–0 Qe7) 4...Bxe6 5.Nf4 Bf7 6.g3 Nf6 7.Bg2 with appears to supply Black with a nice bind of the e4 square but only a slight advantage.

I see nothing wrong, or even challenging about 2....Nf6 3.g3 c6 4.c4 cd5 5.cd5. Perhaps 3.Nc3 g6, but again, I don't see any attempt at an advantage for White compared to other lines.

I think White gives Black the opportunity to apply good pressure to the d5 pawn, and the long diagonal is more exposed, so Black has more power in the Leningrad options than normal.

Well, the d5 becomes weak and defending it takes much time and can lead to underdevelopement. Otherwise, the pawn will be just captured and that's it. For example, 1. d4 f5 2. d5 e6 3. g3 exd5 4. Bg2 c6 and what to do?

2.d5 goes against all opening principles. Perhaps Nf6-d6-g6-Bg7-e6, trying to undermine the pawn? Also c5 seems to be good.
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ouachita
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by ouachita » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:10 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:02 am
I found the following comments on 2.d5

Black seems to have good play after 1.d4 f5 2.d5?! Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.Nc3 cxd 5.cxd Qa5 with a possible b5 and Bb7

As for 1.d4 f5 2.d5, apparently this was examined by S.Z Alapin at the turn of the century. He suggested in some analysis published in Schachfreund, the line…e6! 3.dxe6 d5 4.Nh3 (4.e4?! fxe4 5.Qh5+ g6 6.Qe5 Nf6 7.Bg5 Bg7 8.Nc3 c6 9.0–0–0 Qe7) 4...Bxe6 5.Nf4 Bf7 6.g3 Nf6 7.Bg2 with appears to supply Black with a nice bind of the e4 square but only a slight advantage.

I see nothing wrong, or even challenging about 2....Nf6 3.g3 c6 4.c4 cd5 5.cd5. Perhaps 3.Nc3 g6, but again, I don't see any attempt at an advantage for White compared to other lines.

I think White gives Black the opportunity to apply good pressure to the d5 pawn, and the long diagonal is more exposed, so Black has more power in the Leningrad options than normal.

Well, the d5 becomes weak and defending it takes much time and can lead to underdevelopement. Otherwise, the pawn will be just captured and that's it. For example, 1. d4 f5 2. d5 e6 3. g3 exd5 4. Bg2 c6 and what to do?

2.d5 goes against all opening principles. Perhaps Nf6-d6-g6-Bg7-e6, trying to undermine the pawn? Also c5 seems to be good.
I see 2 games since 1856, a sure sign of its irrelevance.
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

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Graham Banks
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:16 am

ouachita wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:10 am
I see 2 games since 1856, a sure sign of its irrelevance.
Image
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zullil
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by zullil » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:56 am

Ovyron wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:19 am
zullil wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:17 pm
We can start from here, if you are interested, which Stockfish-dev says is basically even
Sure, we can fork the game. You can pretend that I'm playing my game against your Stockfish-dev and just copy the moves until your Stockfish-dev deviates from my opponent's play (my opponent played 9...O-O, so if Stockfish-dev also plays that, you just need to wait and see what move I play against him.)
OK, I've just compiled the latest Stockfish-dev (https://github.com/official-stockfish/S ... 5d236e057e). I'll use this with Threads = 20, Hash = 65536, Analysis Contempt = Off and 6-man Syzygy tables. All other settings at default.

Stockfish-dev is now searching from this position:


Henk
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Henk » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:06 am

General rule is that you must have a good reason to push a pawn from fourth to fifth line for it may easily become weak and a pawn cannot retreat.

Dutch opening was introduced by a French person who migrated to Holland. So not really Dutch.

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Master Om
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Master Om » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:30 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:19 am
Thanks. It's strange that my wish is to play someone so strong they can beat me on the Dutch.
Lets play. me black....
Always Expect the Unexpected

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