Winning after Qf6+!

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Master Om
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Master Om » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:11 pm

zullil wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:51 pm
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:07 pm
zullil wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:15 pm
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:53 pm
zullil wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:24 pm
Master Om wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:19 pm

Can u give the pgn of all the winning lines? I am not getting the results as discussed. hence I will be analyzing deeply now.
I don't have any pgn files. Others do.

From the original position, here is a PV that might to be winning. You could start with this and either refute or improve it!


info depth 69 seldepth 183 multipv 1 score cp 392 nodes 1310302373631 nps 37939606 hashfull 1000 tbhits 0 time 34536530 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 e1d2 b6a5 d2h6 a5c3 b2c3 b3b2 h6f8 b8f8 d1b1 f8b8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 c6e8 h7g7 g8h8 b1b2 b8b2 g7h7 h8g8 e2g4 a3c2 g4e6 f7e6 h7g7 g8h8 g7a7 b2b8 g5e6 c2e1 h2h3 e1f3 h1g2 f3h4 g2f2 h8g8 e6g5 b8b2 f2g3 h4f5 g3f3 b2b1 f3f2 b1b2 f2e1 b2b1 e1d2 b1f1 h3h4 g8f8 g5e6 f8g8 a7a8 g8f7 e6g5 f7f8 f6f7 f5g7 f7e8q g7e8 a8a4 f1f2 d2e1 f2h2 a4a7 e8g7 g5h7 f8g8 h7f6 g8f8 f6d5 g7e6 d5f6 e6f4 e1d1 h2f2 d4d5 f4d3 a7a8 f8g7 f6g4 d3b2 d1c1 b2d3 c1b1 f2b2 b1a1 b2g2 d5d6 g2g1 a1a2 d3c1 a2b1 c1d3 b1c2 g1g2 c2d1 d3b2 d1e1 g2g1 e1d2 g1g2 d2e3 g2g4 d6d7 b2d1 e3d2
ya sure I will. But your pgn is not compatible to copy paste :(
Because it's not a pgn. It's raw output from Stockfish. :)
Depends on the GUI. IN chessbase and Aquarium output is not like that notation.
It's raw output from Stockfish. No GUI.
Okay. I am using SF Dev to analyse now. Lets see what happens.
Always Expect the Unexpected

zullil
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Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by zullil » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:12 pm

Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:11 pm
zullil wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:51 pm

It's raw output from Stockfish. No GUI.
Okay. I am using SF Dev to analyse now. Lets see what happens.
OK. The output I posted was from a recent Sf-dev. Not Stockfish 10. Interested in seeing what you find.

Paloma
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Paloma » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:31 pm

Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:07 pm
Depends on the GUI. IN chessbase and Aquarium output is not like that notation.
In these Positon: 1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1

copy just this:

f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 e1d2 b6a5 d2h6 a5c3 b2c3 b3b2 h6f8 b8f8 d1b1 f8b8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 c6e8 h7g7 g8h8 b1b2 b8b2 g7h7 h8g8 e2g4 a3c2 g4e6 f7e6 h7g7 g8h8 g7a7 b2b8 g5e6 c2e1 h2h3 e1f3 h1g2 f3h4 g2f2 h8g8 e6g5 b8b2 f2g3 h4f5 g3f3 b2b1 f3f2 b1b2 f2e1 b2b1 e1d2 b1f1 h3h4 g8f8 g5e6 f8g8 a7a8 g8f7 e6g5 f7f8 f6f7 f5g7 f7e8q g7e8 a8a4 f1f2 d2e1 f2h2 a4a7 e8g7 g5h7 f8g8 h7f6 g8f8 f6d5 g7e6 d5f6 e6f4 e1d1 h2f2 d4d5 f4d3 a7a8 f8g7 f6g4 d3b2 d1c1 b2d3 c1b1 f2b2 b1a1 b2g2 d5d6 g2g1 a1a2 d3c1 a2b1 c1d3 b1c2 g1g2 c2d1 d3b2 d1e1 g2g1 e1d2 g1g2 d2e3 g2g4 d6d7 b2d1 e3d2

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Master Om
Posts: 330
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Master Om » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:34 pm

zullil wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:12 pm
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:11 pm
zullil wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:51 pm

It's raw output from Stockfish. No GUI.
Okay. I am using SF Dev to analyse now. Lets see what happens.
OK. The output I posted was from a recent Sf-dev. Not Stockfish 10. Interested in seeing what you find.
Analysis is in preliminary stage. Am going further deep now. But am not getting whats discussed here previously.

What u suggest after 3.Bd2 Rfc8 ?
Always Expect the Unexpected

Spliffjiffer
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Spliffjiffer » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:01 pm

Hello MasterOm :-)
to play Bh6 is not primarly to aim for the rook that stood on f8 (only if white sacs his queen on c3/d4)...id suggest to fill the hashes in the origional ...h6, Rxh6 line..to get to the conclusions that these Rb7, Rfc8, Qc7, Bb5 ideas are completely fruitless for black (black must get counterplay as soon as possible or he is getting mated)..in this concrete position id asume that you are aiming for 1. Bh6 Nxd4 and your engine thinks that white recaptures with the knight but white is looking for a mate...so white plays Rxd4 and (if i get it right...), often transpositions from the original h6, Rh6 line occure, as far as i can tell black is completely lost...isnt it?
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

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Master Om
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Master Om » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:17 pm

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:01 pm
Hello MasterOm :-)
to play Bh6 is not primarly to aim for the rook that stood on f8 (only if white sacs his queen on c3/d4)...id suggest to fill the hashes in the origional ...h6, Rxh6 line..to get to the conclusions that these Rb7, Rfc8, Qc7, Bb5 ideas are completely fruitless for black (black must get counterplay as soon as possible or he is getting mated)..in this concrete position id asume that you are aiming for 1. Bh6 Nxd4 and your engine thinks that white recaptures with the knight but white is looking for a mate...so white plays Rxd4 and (if i get it right...), often transpositions from the original h6, Rh6 line occure, as far as i can tell black is completely lost...isnt it?

Code: Select all

as far as i can tell black is completely lost...isnt it?
Till Now as I am getting is equal lines. Ng5 is equal as discussed if not Nxa3. But am not getting winning lines in Bd2 line. lets see.
Always Expect the Unexpected

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Spliffjiffer » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:23 pm

im a bit irritated as well...lets say; 1.Bh6 Nxd4, 2. Rxd4 and u analyse a draw?...thats not good imo
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

zullil
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Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by zullil » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:56 pm

Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:17 pm
Spliffjiffer wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:01 pm
Hello MasterOm :-)
to play Bh6 is not primarly to aim for the rook that stood on f8 (only if white sacs his queen on c3/d4)...id suggest to fill the hashes in the origional ...h6, Rxh6 line..to get to the conclusions that these Rb7, Rfc8, Qc7, Bb5 ideas are completely fruitless for black (black must get counterplay as soon as possible or he is getting mated)..in this concrete position id asume that you are aiming for 1. Bh6 Nxd4 and your engine thinks that white recaptures with the knight but white is looking for a mate...so white plays Rxd4 and (if i get it right...), often transpositions from the original h6, Rh6 line occure, as far as i can tell black is completely lost...isnt it?

Code: Select all

as far as i can tell black is completely lost...isnt it?
Till Now as I am getting is equal lines. Ng5 is equal as discussed if not Nxa3. But am not getting winning lines in Bd2 line. lets see.
Starting from a clear hash, Stockfish will take some time to find Bh6 in the position you posted. You could play the move and help Stockfish see that Black is then lost.



I see:

+13.12 4... Ne3 5. Bxe3 Kf8 6. Rxh7 Ke8 7. Ng5 Bb5 8. Rf1 Kd7 9. Rxf7+ Kc6 10. Nxe6 Rh8 11. Re7 Qa6 12. Bg4 Qc8 13. f7 Kb6 14. f8=Q Rxf8 15. Rxf8 Qxf8 16. Nxf8 Rxf8 17. Re6+ Kc7 18. Rf6 Rh8 19. Rf7+ Kb8 20. e6 Be8 21. Bf4+ Ka8 22. Rf6 Kb7 23. Bg5 Rh5 24. Bxh5 gxh5 25. Rf8 Bg6 26. e7 Kc7 27. e8=Q Bxe8 28. Rxe8 Kd7 29. Rd8+ Ke6 30. Kg2 Kf5 31. Rxd5+ Ke4 32. Ra5 Kd3 33. Rxa4 Kc2 34. Rxc4 Kxb2 35. Be7 (depth 42, 0:15:07)

fastgm
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by fastgm » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:58 pm

What u suggest after 3.Bd2 Rfc8 ?


4.Bh6!


Brainfish 061019 64 POPCNT:
55/135 17:13 18.189.494.890 17.597.429 +8,63 4.Bh6 Nxd4 5.Rxd4 Qc5 6.Kg1 Bb7 7.Bg7 h5 8.Ng5 Qf8 9.Bxf8 Kxf8 10.Bxh5 gxh5 11.Rxh5 Ke8 12.Rh7 Kd7 13.Rxf7+ Kc6 14.Rg7 Re8 15.f7 Rf8 16.Nxe6 Kd7 17.Nf4 Rbd8 18.Rg6 Ke7 19.Rb6 Bc8 20.e6 Bxe6 21.Nxe6 Rxf7 22.Nxd8 Kxd8 23.Rd6+ Kc7 24.R6xd5 Rg7+ 25.Kf2 Rf7+ 26.Ke3 Re7+ 27.Kd2 Kb7 28.Rb5+ Kc6 29.Rb8 Kc5 30.Rb4 Kc6 31.Rdxc4+ Kd6 32.Rxa4

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Master Om
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Master Om » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:45 am

zullil wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:56 pm
Master Om wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:17 pm
Spliffjiffer wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:01 pm
Hello MasterOm :-)
to play Bh6 is not primarly to aim for the rook that stood on f8 (only if white sacs his queen on c3/d4)...id suggest to fill the hashes in the origional ...h6, Rxh6 line..to get to the conclusions that these Rb7, Rfc8, Qc7, Bb5 ideas are completely fruitless for black (black must get counterplay as soon as possible or he is getting mated)..in this concrete position id asume that you are aiming for 1. Bh6 Nxd4 and your engine thinks that white recaptures with the knight but white is looking for a mate...so white plays Rxd4 and (if i get it right...), often transpositions from the original h6, Rh6 line occure, as far as i can tell black is completely lost...isnt it?

Code: Select all

as far as i can tell black is completely lost...isnt it?
Till Now as I am getting is equal lines. Ng5 is equal as discussed if not Nxa3. But am not getting winning lines in Bd2 line. lets see.
Starting from a clear hash, Stockfish will take some time to find Bh6 in the position you posted. You could play the move and help Stockfish see that Black is then lost.



I see:

+13.12 4... Ne3 5. Bxe3 Kf8 6. Rxh7 Ke8 7. Ng5 Bb5 8. Rf1 Kd7 9. Rxf7+ Kc6 10. Nxe6 Rh8 11. Re7 Qa6 12. Bg4 Qc8 13. f7 Kb6 14. f8=Q Rxf8 15. Rxf8 Qxf8 16. Nxf8 Rxf8 17. Re6+ Kc7 18. Rf6 Rh8 19. Rf7+ Kb8 20. e6 Be8 21. Bf4+ Ka8 22. Rf6 Kb7 23. Bg5 Rh5 24. Bxh5 gxh5 25. Rf8 Bg6 26. e7 Kc7 27. e8=Q Bxe8 28. Rxe8 Kd7 29. Rd8+ Ke6 30. Kg2 Kf5 31. Rxd5+ Ke4 32. Ra5 Kd3 33. Rxa4 Kc2 34. Rxc4 Kxb2 35. Be7 (depth 42, 0:15:07)
yes doing that....
But as i need to see all possible moves it is taking time. Soon I will have a confirmatory analysis.
Always Expect the Unexpected

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