Winning after Qf6+!

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jp
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by jp » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:05 am

Nordlandia wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:19 pm
Analysis by Lc0 v0.23.1+git.6837b83: 2x ASUS ROG Strix RTX 2080 Super OC

White is clearly better: +- (2.02) Depth: 17/36 00:03:02 5725kN
(27.12.2019)
AdminX wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:17 pm
Image

But did you two see Jim's earlier results? Lc0's analysis gets "worse" with longer time. (Our current conclusion is that this position is won by White with Qf6+ and Bd2.)

mmt wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:18 pm
After a deep evaluation, 3.3 billion nodes, LC0's Qf6+ score falls a little. It doesn't see a clear win. It used 185 GB of RAM by this point.

+1.31 Qf6+ Bxf6 gxf6+ Kg8 Bd2 Qa5 Bh6 Qxc3 bxc3 b2 Bxf8 Rxf8 Rb1 Rb8 Ng5 h6 Rxh6 Nxa3 Rh7 Be8 Rxb2 Rxb2 Rg7+ Kh8 Bg4 Nc2 Bxe6 fxe6 Ra7 Rb8 Nxe6 Ne3 Kg1 g5 Nxg5 Bg6 Rxa4 Be4 Ra5 Bg6 h4 Nd1 Ra3 Ne3 Ra7 Be4 Rg7 Rb1+ Kf2 Ng4+ Kg3 Nh6 Ra7 Rg1+ Kf2 Rg2+ Kf1 Rg4 Ra8+ Ng8 f7 Rf4+ Ke2 Bh7 f8=Q Rxf8 Rxf8 Bf5 Ra8 Kg7 Ra1 Kg6 Ke3 Ne7 Kf4 Bh3 Ra6+ Be6 Rb6 Kh5 Rxe6 Ng6+ (N: 2749M, P: 6.24%, V: 0.886, Q: 0.445)

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AdminX
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by AdminX » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:21 am

jp wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:05 am
Nordlandia wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:19 pm
Analysis by Lc0 v0.23.1+git.6837b83: 2x ASUS ROG Strix RTX 2080 Super OC

White is clearly better: +- (2.02) Depth: 17/36 00:03:02 5725kN
(27.12.2019)
AdminX wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:17 pm
Image

But did you two see Jim's earlier results? Lc0's analysis gets "worse" with longer time. (Our current conclusion is that this position is won by White with Qf6+ and Bd2.)

mmt wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:18 pm
After a deep evaluation, 3.3 billion nodes, LC0's Qf6+ score falls a little. It doesn't see a clear win. It used 185 GB of RAM by this point.

+1.31 Qf6+ Bxf6 gxf6+ Kg8 Bd2 Qa5 Bh6 Qxc3 bxc3 b2 Bxf8 Rxf8 Rb1 Rb8 Ng5 h6 Rxh6 Nxa3 Rh7 Be8 Rxb2 Rxb2 Rg7+ Kh8 Bg4 Nc2 Bxe6 fxe6 Ra7 Rb8 Nxe6 Ne3 Kg1 g5 Nxg5 Bg6 Rxa4 Be4 Ra5 Bg6 h4 Nd1 Ra3 Ne3 Ra7 Be4 Rg7 Rb1+ Kf2 Ng4+ Kg3 Nh6 Ra7 Rg1+ Kf2 Rg2+ Kf1 Rg4 Ra8+ Ng8 f7 Rf4+ Ke2 Bh7 f8=Q Rxf8 Rxf8 Bf5 Ra8 Kg7 Ra1 Kg6 Ke3 Ne7 Kf4 Bh3 Ra6+ Be6 Rb6 Kh5 Rxe6 Ng6+ (N: 2749M, P: 6.24%, V: 0.886, Q: 0.445)
Yeah, I saw it. I also noticed that it saw the mating line earlier before moving away from it.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Spliffjiffer
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Spliffjiffer » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:08 am

first of all sry to reopen this thread...im hyped by the NNue thing guys:
after 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2.gxf6 Kg8 3. Ng5 ??! h6 4.Rxh6 Ne3!? i figured out 2 winning moves (5. Rh3!? and 5.Rh7!?? to come back to h3 later)...possible with the help of MikeB's McCain-engine and the work of SF-team...i was pretty sure that these are the only moves to win here !...now i revisited the position with NNue and Sergio's 20200724-1240.bin and it tells me the following:
5.h4 ?! EV= 1.99 after about 5 min of search...as i know the position id assume a draw here...proof me wrong plz :-)
then i requested "next best move" (Arena-GUI)
5.Bf3 EV= 3.31, around 200 sec...i assume thats winning !?
"next best move" :
5.Rh7 EV=3.40, around 1min...its winning !
"next best move" :
5.Rh3 EV= 4.76, around 4 min, winning, probably best move !?
"next best move" :
5.Rd2 EV= 4.07, around 3 min, i assume thats winning !?...it wants to play 6.Rd1 back after 5...Qa5!!...i analysed this move to death but the idea of just move him back did not come into my mind ;-)
"next best move" :
5.Kg1 EV= 3.42, around 5 min, i assume thats winning !?...man thats the other move i wanted to make work...the king on f2 includes develish threaths, i could NOT make it work !
"next best move" :
5.Rh4 EV= 4.11, around 2 min, i assume thats winning !?... a move i didnt really analysed because of 6. Nf5 threathening him and he should move...
"next best move" :
5.h3 EV= 1.91, around 2 min, as i know the position id assume a draw here...proof me wrong plz :-)

NNue thinks that there are no more moves to obtain an advantage...im stunned by its abilities ( if your superior hardware does not proof me wrong)...
[tested with Sergio's 20200724-1240.bin on a 7870k APU, 1024 hash+ TB]
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

zullil
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by zullil » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:56 am

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:08 am
first of all sry to reopen this thread...im hyped by the NNue thing guys:
after 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2.gxf6 Kg8 3. Ng5 ??! h6 4.Rxh6 Ne3!? i figured out 2 winning moves (5. Rh3!? and 5.Rh7!?? to come back to h3 later)...possible with the help of MikeB's McCain-engine and the work of SF-team...i was pretty sure that these are the only moves to win here !...now i revisited the position with NNue and Sergio's 20200724-1240.bin and it tells me the following:
5.h4 ?! EV= 1.99 after about 5 min of search...as i know the position id assume a draw here...proof me wrong plz :-)
then i requested "next best move" (Arena-GUI)
5.Bf3 EV= 3.31, around 200 sec...i assume thats winning !?
"next best move" :
5.Rh7 EV=3.40, around 1min...its winning !
"next best move" :
5.Rh3 EV= 4.76, around 4 min, winning, probably best move !?
"next best move" :
5.Rd2 EV= 4.07, around 3 min, i assume thats winning !?...it wants to play 6.Rd1 back after 5...Qa5!!...i analysed this move to death but the idea of just move him back did not come into my mind ;-)
"next best move" :
5.Kg1 EV= 3.42, around 5 min, i assume thats winning !?...man thats the other move i wanted to make work...the king on f2 includes develish threaths, i could NOT make it work !
"next best move" :
5.Rh4 EV= 4.11, around 2 min, i assume thats winning !?... a move i didnt really analysed because of 6. Nf5 threathening him and he should move...
"next best move" :
5.h3 EV= 1.91, around 2 min, as i know the position id assume a draw here...proof me wrong plz :-)

NNue thinks that there are no more moves to obtain an advantage...im stunned by its abilities ( if your superior hardware does not proof me wrong)...
[tested with Sergio's 20200724-1240.bin on a 7870k APU, 1024 hash+ TB]
Stockfish+nnue (sergio 20200725-0545.bin) finds Qf6 in the root position very fast:

info depth 28 seldepth 50 multipv 1 score cp -23 lowerbound nodes 182186574 nps 27835992 hashfull 16 tbhits 0 time 6545 pv f4f6

The search is continuing, as the engine works to find a winning line ...

Currently stuck at

info depth 55 seldepth 104 multipv 1 score cp 119 nodes 15213681014 nps 29435446 hashfull 894 tbhits 624177 time 516849 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 a3b5 h2h4 b6d8 h7g7 g8h8 h1g2 b5c7 e1g3 c7e8 g7f7 f8f7 g5f7 h8g8 f7d8 b8d8 h4h5 g6g5 d1f1 e8c7 f6f7 g8g7 g3e1 d8f8 e1d2 f8f7 h5h6 g7g8 f1f7 g8f7 e2h5 f7g8 h5g6 c6e8 g6b1 e8h5 d2g5 c7e8 g5f6 e8g7 h6g7 h5e2 f6e7 g8g7 g2g3 e2d1 g3f2 d1h5 e7b4 h5d1 f2e3 g7f7 e3d2 d1f3 d2e1 f3h5 e1f2 h5g4 b4a3 g4d1 f2e1 d1f3 a3d6 f7g7 e1f2 f3d1 f2e3 g7f7 d6c7 f7g7 c7d8 g7f7 d8f6 d1g4 f6g5 g4d1 g5h6 d1h5 b1h7 h5g4 e3d2 g4h5 d2c1 h5e2 h7b1 e2h5 h6g5 h5g4 g5f4 g4f3 f4e3 f3h5 e3h6 h5f3 c1d2 f3h5 d2e3

MikeGL
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by MikeGL » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:56 am

zullil wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:56 am

info depth 55 seldepth 104 multipv 1 score cp 119 nodes 15213681014 nps 29435446 hashfull 894 tbhits 624177 time 516849 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 a3b5 h2h4 b6d8 h7g7 g8h8 h1g2 b5c7 e1g3 c7e8 g7f7 f8f7 g5f7 h8g8 f7d8 b8d8 h4h5 g6g5 d1f1 e8c7 f6f7 g8g7 g3e1 d8f8 e1d2 f8f7 h5h6 g7g8 f1f7 g8f7 e2h5 f7g8 h5g6 c6e8 g6b1 e8h5 d2g5 c7e8 g5f6 e8g7 h6g7 h5e2 f6e7 g8g7 g2g3 e2d1 g3f2 d1h5 e7b4 h5d1 f2e3 g7f7 e3d2 d1f3 d2e1 f3h5 e1f2 h5g4 b4a3 g4d1 f2e1 d1f3 a3d6 f7g7 e1f2 f3d1 f2e3 g7f7 d6c7 f7g7 c7d8 g7f7 d8f6 d1g4 f6g5 g4d1 g5h6 d1h5 b1h7 h5g4 e3d2 g4h5 d2c1 h5e2 h7b1 e2h5 h6g5 h5g4 g5f4 g4f3 f4e3 f3h5 e3h6 h5f3 c1d2 f3h5 d2e3
Does this mean the position was just a fortress draw after Qf6+! line?
Looks like an opposite B pawn endgame with a fortress for black who is also on the losing side.
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.

Zenmastur
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by Zenmastur » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:42 am

MikeGL wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:56 am
zullil wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:56 am

info depth 55 seldepth 104 multipv 1 score cp 119 nodes 15213681014 nps 29435446 hashfull 894 tbhits 624177 time 516849 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 a3b5 h2h4 b6d8 h7g7 g8h8 h1g2 b5c7 e1g3 c7e8 g7f7 f8f7 g5f7 h8g8 f7d8 b8d8 h4h5 g6g5 d1f1 e8c7 f6f7 g8g7 g3e1 d8f8 e1d2 f8f7 h5h6 g7g8 f1f7 g8f7 e2h5 f7g8 h5g6 c6e8 g6b1 e8h5 d2g5 c7e8 g5f6 e8g7 h6g7 h5e2 f6e7 g8g7 g2g3 e2d1 g3f2 d1h5 e7b4 h5d1 f2e3 g7f7 e3d2 d1f3 d2e1 f3h5 e1f2 h5g4 b4a3 g4d1 f2e1 d1f3 a3d6 f7g7 e1f2 f3d1 f2e3 g7f7 d6c7 f7g7 c7d8 g7f7 d8f6 d1g4 f6g5 g4d1 g5h6 d1h5 b1h7 h5g4 e3d2 g4h5 d2c1 h5e2 h7b1 e2h5 h6g5 h5g4 g5f4 g4f3 f4e3 f3h5 e3h6 h5f3 c1d2 f3h5 d2e3
Does this mean the position was just a fortress draw after Qf6+! line?
It means nothing of the sort. The winning line for white is 1.Qf6+ Bxf6 2.gxf6+ Kg8 3.Bd2



This is a multiPV 15 to depth 35 from this position:

Code: Select all

(  +3.31 3...Qa5 4.Bh6 Qxc3 5.bxc3 b2 6.Bxf8 b1=Q 7.Rxb1 Rxb1+ 8.Kg2 Rb2 9.Kf2 h5 10.Bc5 Ra2 11.Ng5 Nxa3 12.Rg3 Be8 13.Bxa3 Rxa3 14.Rg1 Rxc3 15.Ra1 Rc2 16.Ke3 Rb2 17.Bd1 Rb4 18.Kd2 Bc6 19.Ra3 Rb8 20.Kc3 Kf8 21.Ra2 Kg8 22.Bc2 Kf8 23.Rb2 Rxb2 24.Kxb2 Kg8 25.Bd1 Bd7 26.Ka3 Be8 27.Nf3 Bc6 28.Kb4 Kh7 29.Ng5+ Kg8 30.h4 Bd7 31.Nf3 Bc6 32.Bc2 Kf8 33.Ng5 )
(  +3.32 3...Nxd4 4.Nxd4 Qc5 5.Rg1 Rfc8 6.Bd1 Rb7 7.Bh6 Bd7 8.Rg4 Qxa3 9.bxa3 b2 10.Bc2 b1=Q+ 11.Bxb1 Rxb1+ 12.Rg1 Rcb8 13.Rf3 R1b2 14.Ra1 Rb1+ 15.Rf1 R1b2 16.Kg1 Be8 17.Rf3 R2b7 18.Kg2 Bb5 19.Rf2 Bd7 20.Rff1 Ra8 21.Kh1 Rb3 22.Nxb3 cxb3 23.Rfd1 Bb5 24.Rd2 Bc4 25.Rd4 Rb8 26.Rb1 Ra8 27.Kg1 Ra6 28.h4 )
(  +4.07 3...Qc5 4.dxc5 d4 5.Bxc4 Rfd8 6.Bd3 dxc3 7.Bxc3 Nxa3 8.bxa3 b2 9.Bxb2 Rb3 10.Kg1 Rbxd3 11.Rxd3 Rxd3 12.Ng5 Rd1+ 13.Kf2 Rd2+ 14.Ke3 Rg2 15.Nxf7 Rxb2 16.Ng5 h5 17.Kd4 Bd5 18.c6 Bxc6 19.f7+ Kg7 20.Nxe6+ Kxf7 21.Nd8+ Ke8 22.Nxc6 Kd7 23.Nb4 Ke6 24.Rf3 Rd2+ 25.Nd3 Rxh2 26.Rf6+ Kd7 )
(  +4.43 3...Qc7 4.Bh6 Bb7 5.Kg2 Rfd8 6.Ng5 Nxd4 7.cxd4 c3 8.Bg7 Qc4 9.Bxc4 dxc4+ 10.Kf2 h5 11.Rxc3 Bd5 12.Ke3 Rbc8 13.Ne4 Rc7 14.Nd6 Kh7 15.Kf4 Kg8 16.Rdc1 Kh7 17.Ne4 Ra7 18.Ke3 Rc7 19.Rg1 Rc6 20.Kf4 Rc7 21.Rd1 Rcd7 22.Ke3 Kg8 23.Ng5 Rc7 24.Rdc1 Rc6 25.Ne4 Kh7 26.h3 Ra8 )
(  +4.52 3...h5 4.Rg1 Bb5 5.Rxh5 Nxd4 6.Nxd4 Qxd4 7.cxd4 c3 8.Bxb5 cxd2 9.Be2 Rfc8 10.Rhg5 Rc2 11.h4 Kh7 12.h5 Rh8 13.hxg6+ Kg8+ 14.Rh5 Rxh5+ 15.Bxh5 fxg6 16.Bxg6 Rxb2 17.Be8+ Kf8 18.Bxa4 Rc2 19.Bxb3 Rc3 20.Ba4 Rxa3 21.Bd1 Rd3 22.Rg4 Re3 23.Rg2 Re1+ 24.Rg1 Re4 25.Bf3 Rxd4 26.Rb1 Rh4+ 27.Kg2 Kf7 28.Kg3 Rh8 29.Rb7+ Kg6 30.Rc7 d1=Q )
(  +5.54 3...Nxa3 4.Bh6 Nb5 5.Ng5 Qd8 6.Nxh7 Nc7 7.Bg7 Ne8 8.Bxf8 Nxf6 9.exf6 Qxf8 10.Nxf8 Rxf8 11.Re3 Ra8 12.Ra1 Kh7 13.Ra3 Rh8 14.Kg2 Kg8 15.Ra1 Rh6 16.Re5 Rh8 17.Bg4 Rh7 18.Kg3 Kf8 19.h3 Ke8 20.h4 Bb5 21.Ree1 Kd7 22.Rh1 Rh6 23.Kf3 Bc6 24.Kf4 Kd6 25.Rh3 Bb5 26.Bf3 g5+ 27.Kxg5 Rg6+ 28.Kf4 Rxf6+ 29.Ke3 )
(  +5.54 3...Qd8 4.Bh6 Nxa3 5.Ng5 Nb5 6.Nxh7 Nc7 7.Bg7 Ne8 8.Bxf8 Nxf6 9.exf6 Qxf8 10.Nxf8 Rxf8 11.Re3 Ra8 12.Ra1 Kh7 13.Ra3 Rh8 14.Kg2 Kg8 15.Ra1 Bd7 16.Kg3 Kf8 17.Bf3 Bc6 18.h4 Ke8 19.Re2 Kd7 20.Rh2 Kd6 21.Kf4 Rh6 22.Rhh1 Bb5 23.Bg4 Bd7 24.Be2 Bb5 25.Kg5 Rh8 26.Bf3 Bc6 27.Rh2 Bb5 28.Bg4 Ra8 29.Kf4 Rh8 )
(  +5.71 3...Rfe8 4.Bh6 Qb5 5.Kg1 Bb7 6.Bg7 Ne3 7.Ng5 Nf5 8.Bxc4 h5 9.Bxb5 Rec8 10.Bd3 Rc6 11.Bxf5 exf5 12.Kf2 Bc8 13.Rf3 Rc7 14.Ke3 Bd7 15.Kf4 Re8 16.Rh3 Rec8 17.Rc1 Rc4 18.Ra1 Re8 19.Rg3 Rcc8 20.h3 Be6 21.Rc1 Rc4 22.Bh6 Rc7 )
(  +6.18 3...Rfc8 4.Bh6 Bb5 5.Bg7 Qd8 6.Rh6 Bc6 7.Ra1 Qf8 8.Bxf8 Rxf8 9.Rb1 Rfc8 10.Ng5 Nxd4 11.cxd4 Be8 12.Kg2 c3 13.Rxh7 cxb2 14.Rg7+ Kh8 15.Nxf7+ Bxf7 16.Rxf7 Rc3 17.Rxb2 Rbc8 18.Rb1 Rc2 19.Kf2 R8c4 20.Rd1 b2 21.Rf8+ Kh7 22.Rb8 Rc8 23.Rxc8 Rxc8 24.Rb1 Rb8 25.Bd1 Kg8 26.Ke2 Kh7 27.Bxa4 Kg8 28.Kd2 )
(  +6.23 3...Bd7 4.Bh6 Ra8 5.Ng5 Nxd4 6.Rxd4 Qxd4 7.cxd4 c3 8.bxc3 b2 9.Bd3 b1=Q+ 10.Bxb1 Rfb8 11.Bxg6 fxg6 12.f7+ Kh8 13.f8=R+ Rxf8 14.Bxf8 h5 15.Rf3 Kg8 16.Bb4 Bb5 17.Nxe6 Be2 18.Rf6 Bd3 19.Nf4 Be4+ 20.Kg1 Kg7 21.Rd6 )
(  +6.33 3...Rbc8 4.Bh6 Rfe8 5.Bg7 Qb8 6.Rd2 Rcd8 7.Rh6 Qxe5 8.Nxe5 Ne3 9.Nxc6 Rc8 10.Ne5 Nf5 11.Rh3 Nxg7 12.fxg7 Kxg7 13.Rd1 Rc7 14.Rf1 f6 15.Ng4 f5 16.Ne5 Kf6 17.Kg2 Rh8 18.Rg3 Rg7 19.h4 h6 20.Rh1 Rhh7 21.Kf2 g5 22.hxg5+ hxg5 23.Rgh3 Rxh3 24.Rxh3 )
(  +6.74 3...Qa7 4.Bh6 Be8 5.Kg2 Qc7 6.Kg1 Bb5 7.Kf2 Rb6 8.Ng5 Rc6 9.Kg2 Re8 10.Bg7 h5 11.Kf2 Qa7 12.Rh4 Rd8 13.Rd2 Qa5 14.Bg4 Rc7 15.Rd1 Re7 16.Be2 Rc8 17.Rd2 Qb6 18.Rh3 Rec7 19.Bg4 Rc5 20.Rh4 R5c6 21.Be2 Re8 22.Rd1 Ra8 23.Bg4 )
(  +6.76 3...Bb7 4.Bh6 Qc7 5.Ng5 Rfd8 6.Kg1 Rbc8 7.Bg4 Bc6 8.Bg7 h5 9.Rf1 Rb8 10.Kf2 Qa7 11.Rd1 Re8 12.Rd2 Rbd8 13.Bf3 Rb8 14.Be2 Rbd8 15.Kg2 Bb7 16.Kf1 Re7 17.Rd1 Rc8 18.Bxh5 Ne3+ 19.Kf2 Nf5 20.Bxg6 Nxg7 21.Bb1 Rcc7 22.Rg1 )
(  +6.94 3...Rfd8 4.Bh6 Qc7 5.Ng5 Qxe5 6.dxe5 d4+ 7.Kg1 dxc3 8.Rxd8+ Rxd8 9.Rxc3 Nd4 10.Bxc4 Be8 11.Rd3 Rd7 12.Ne4 Nf5 13.Bd2 h5 14.Kf2 h4 15.Rxd7 Bxd7 16.Bf4 Kf8 17.Nd6 Nd4 18.Bh6+ Kg8 19.Ke3 Nc6 20.Ke4 Nd8 21.Bf4 Nc6 22.Be2 Kf8 23.Bh6+ Kg8 24.Bd2 h3 25.Bg5 Kf8 26.Bf4 Nd8 27.Kd4 Nc6+ 28.Kc5 g5 29.Bg3 Nd8 30.Ne4 )
(  +7.00 3...Bb5 4.Bh6 Rbd8 5.Ng5 Nxd4 6.cxd4 c3 7.Bg7 Qxd4 8.Rxh7 Qe4+ 9.Nxe4 Kxh7 10.Ng5+ Kg8 11.Bxb5 cxb2 12.Bxf8 Rc8 13.Be8 Rxe8 14.Bh6 Rc8 15.Nf3 Rc2 16.Kg1 Kh7 17.Bg5 Kg8 18.Bd2 Kf8 19.Rb1 Ke8 20.Kf2 Kd7 21.Ke3 Kd8 22.Nd4 Rc8 23.Rxb2 Kd7 24.Nf3 Rh8 25.Ng5 Ke8 26.h3 )
So, Qf6 is still winning if you play the proper line.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

zullil
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Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by zullil » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:29 am

MikeGL wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:56 am
zullil wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:56 am

info depth 55 seldepth 104 multipv 1 score cp 119 nodes 15213681014 nps 29435446 hashfull 894 tbhits 624177 time 516849 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 a3b5 h2h4 b6d8 h7g7 g8h8 h1g2 b5c7 e1g3 c7e8 g7f7 f8f7 g5f7 h8g8 f7d8 b8d8 h4h5 g6g5 d1f1 e8c7 f6f7 g8g7 g3e1 d8f8 e1d2 f8f7 h5h6 g7g8 f1f7 g8f7 e2h5 f7g8 h5g6 c6e8 g6b1 e8h5 d2g5 c7e8 g5f6 e8g7 h6g7 h5e2 f6e7 g8g7 g2g3 e2d1 g3f2 d1h5 e7b4 h5d1 f2e3 g7f7 e3d2 d1f3 d2e1 f3h5 e1f2 h5g4 b4a3 g4d1 f2e1 d1f3 a3d6 f7g7 e1f2 f3d1 f2e3 g7f7 d6c7 f7g7 c7d8 g7f7 d8f6 d1g4 f6g5 g4d1 g5h6 d1h5 b1h7 h5g4 e3d2 g4h5 d2c1 h5e2 h7b1 e2h5 h6g5 h5g4 g5f4 g4f3 f4e3 f3h5 e3h6 h5f3 c1d2 f3h5 d2e3
Does this mean the position was just a fortress draw after Qf6+! line?
Looks like an opposite B pawn endgame with a fortress for black who is also on the losing side.
No, the engine just needed a bit more time to find the proper line:

info depth 59 seldepth 109 multipv 1 score cp 119 nodes 19031491080 nps 29276649 hashfull 958 tbhits 1918732 time 650057 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 a3b5 h7g7 g8h8 h2h4 b5d6 e1g3 b6d8 h1g2 d6e8 g7f7 f8f7 g5f7 h8g8 f7d8 b8d8 h4h5 g6g5 d1f1 e8c7 f6f7 g8g7 g3e1 d8f8 e1d2 f8f7 h5h6 g7g8 f1f7 g8f7 e2h5 f7g8 h5g6 c6e8 g6b1 e8h5 d2g5 c7e8 g5f6 e8g7 h6g7 h5e2 f6e7 g8g7 g2g3 e2d1 g3f2 d1h5 e7b4 h5d1 f2e3 g7f7 e3d2 d1f3 d2e1 f3h5 e1f2 h5g4 b4a3 g4d1 f2e1 d1f3 a3d6 f3h5 e1d2 h5g4 d6c5 g4f3 d2c1 f7g7 c5d6 g7f7 d6c7 f7g7 c1d2 f3g4 c7a5 g4f3 a5d8 f3h5 d8e7 g7f7 e7f6 f7g8 d2c1 g8f7 f6d8 f7g8 d8e7 g8g7 e7g5 h5f3 c1d2 f3h5 g5d8 g7h6 d8f6 h5e8 d2e3 e8h5 f6e7 h6g7 e7b4
info depth 60 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 128 lowerbound nodes 24381879312 nps 28984467 hashfull 987 tbhits 2763441 time 841205 pv f4f6
info depth 59 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 137 lowerbound nodes 25343867025 nps 28974651 hashfull 989 tbhits 2796837 time 874691 pv f4f6
info depth 58 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 151 lowerbound nodes 26069265964 nps 29000329 hashfull 991 tbhits 2804228 time 898930 pv f4f6
info depth 57 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 170 lowerbound nodes 26658746914 nps 29068179 hashfull 992 tbhits 2819129 time 917111 pv f4f6
info depth 56 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 197 lowerbound nodes 29905447224 nps 29140253 hashfull 997 tbhits 2896904 time 1026259 pv f4f6
info depth 55 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 233 lowerbound nodes 30774901774 nps 29170440 hashfull 997 tbhits 2913394 time 1055003 pv f4f6
info depth 54 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 279 lowerbound nodes 32972703919 nps 29168929 hashfull 998 tbhits 2914781 time 1130405 pv f4f6
info depth 53 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 340 lowerbound nodes 39126988026 nps 29185545 hashfull 999 tbhits 3286450 time 1340629 pv f4f6
info depth 52 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 418 lowerbound nodes 50019692925 nps 29148716 hashfull 1000 tbhits 4180047 time 1716017 pv f4f6
info depth 51 currmove f4f6 currmovenumber 1
info depth 51 currmove h3h6 currmovenumber 2
info depth 51 currmove h1g1 currmovenumber 3
info depth 51 currmove d1b1 currmovenumber 4
info depth 51 currmove f3d2 currmovenumber 5
info depth 51 currmove e1h4 currmovenumber 6
info depth 51 currmove e1f2 currmovenumber 7
info depth 51 currmove e1d2 currmovenumber 8
info depth 51 currmove e2f1 currmovenumber 9
info depth 51 currmove f3h4 currmovenumber 10
info depth 51 currmove f3g1 currmovenumber 11
info depth 51 currmove d1d2 currmovenumber 12
info depth 51 currmove f4h4 currmovenumber 13
info depth 51 currmove e1g3 currmovenumber 14
info depth 51 currmove f4g3 currmovenumber 15
info depth 51 currmove d1c1 currmovenumber 16
info depth 51 currmove e2d3 currmovenumber 17
info depth 51 currmove d1d3 currmovenumber 18
info depth 51 currmove f4f5 currmovenumber 19
info depth 51 currmove h3g3 currmovenumber 20
info depth 51 currmove h1g2 currmovenumber 21
info depth 51 currmove h3h4 currmovenumber 22
info depth 51 currmove f4c1 currmovenumber 23
info depth 51 currmove f4g4 currmovenumber 24
info depth 51 currmove d1a1 currmovenumber 25
info depth 51 currmove f4e4 currmovenumber 26
info depth 51 currmove f4e3 currmovenumber 27
info depth 51 currmove h3h5 currmovenumber 28
info depth 51 currmove f4d2 currmovenumber 29
info depth 51 currmove h3h7 currmovenumber 30
info depth 51 currmove f4f7 currmovenumber 31
info depth 51 currmove e2c4 currmovenumber 32
info depth 60 seldepth 107 multipv 1 score cp 418 nodes 52873633123 nps 29133853 hashfull 1000 tbhits 4439144 time 1814852 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 e1d2 b6a5 d2h6 a5c3 b2c3 b3b2 h6f8 b2b1q d1b1 b8b1 h1g2 h7h5 f8c5 b1a1 h3g3 c2e3 g2f2 e3g4 g3g4 h5g4 f3d2 a1a2 f2e3 a2c2 c5b4 g4g3 h2g3 c6e8 g3g4 c2a2 d2f3 a2c2 e2d1 c2c1 e3d2 c1a1 f3g5 a1b1 d1c2 b1f1 c2d1 f1f2 d2e3 f2f1 d1f3 f1a1 e3f2 g8h8 f3e2 a1b1 f2e3 b1c1 e2f3 c1f1 b4f8 f1b1 f3e2 b1b3 f8b4 b3b1 e3f2 b1b2 b4c5 b2a2 f2e3 a2b2 e2d1 h8g8 c5b4 b2b1

and eventually

info depth 64 seldepth 111 multipv 1 score cp 583 nodes 1286596679097 nps 42818193 hashfull 1000 tbhits 29784765 time 30047897 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 e1d2 b6a5 d2h6 a5c3 b2c3 b3b2 h6f8 b8f8 d1b1 f8b8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 c6e8 h7g7 g8h8 b1b2 b8b2 g7h7 h8g8 e2g4 a3c2 h7g7 g8h8 g4e6 f7e6 g7a7 b2b8 g5e6 c2e1 h2h4 e1f3 h1g2 f3h4 g2g3 h4f5 g3h3 h8g8 e6g5 a4a3 e5e6 f5d6 f6f7 e8f7 e6f7 d6f7 g5f7 b8b1 f7h6 g8f8 h6g4 b1b3 h3h4 b3c3 h4g5 c3f3 g4e5 f3f1 e5g6 f8e8 a7a3 e8d7 a3e3 f1d1 g6e5 d7c7 e5f3 d1h1 g5f5 h1h6 e3e6 h6h1 f5e5 h1f1 e5f4 c7d7 e6g6 d7e7 g6g5 e7e6 g5e5 e6d6 e5e8 f1d1 e8e3 d1h1 e3e1 h1h8 e1a1 h8f8 f4e3 f8g8 a1a6 d6d7 f3e5 d7e7 e3f4 g8g1 e5g4 g1f1 f4e5 c4c3 a6c6 f1g1

zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Winning after Qf6+!

Post by zullil » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:14 am

Spliffjiffer wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:08 am
first of all sry to reopen this thread...im hyped by the NNue thing guys:
after 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2.gxf6 Kg8 3. Ng5 ??! h6 4.Rxh6 Ne3!? i figured out 2 winning moves (5. Rh3!? and 5.Rh7!?? to come back to h3 later)...possible with the help of MikeB's McCain-engine and the work of SF-team...i was pretty sure that these are the only moves to win here !...now i revisited the position with NNue and Sergio's 20200724-1240.bin and it tells me the following:
5.h4 ?! EV= 1.99 after about 5 min of search...as i know the position id assume a draw here...proof me wrong plz :-)
then i requested "next best move" (Arena-GUI)
5.Bf3 EV= 3.31, around 200 sec...i assume thats winning !?
"next best move" :
5.Rh7 EV=3.40, around 1min...its winning !
"next best move" :
5.Rh3 EV= 4.76, around 4 min, winning, probably best move !?
"next best move" :
5.Rd2 EV= 4.07, around 3 min, i assume thats winning !?...it wants to play 6.Rd1 back after 5...Qa5!!...i analysed this move to death but the idea of just move him back did not come into my mind ;-)
"next best move" :
5.Kg1 EV= 3.42, around 5 min, i assume thats winning !?...man thats the other move i wanted to make work...the king on f2 includes develish threaths, i could NOT make it work !
"next best move" :
5.Rh4 EV= 4.11, around 2 min, i assume thats winning !?... a move i didnt really analysed because of 6. Nf5 threathening him and he should move...
"next best move" :
5.h3 EV= 1.91, around 2 min, as i know the position id assume a draw here...proof me wrong plz :-)

NNue thinks that there are no more moves to obtain an advantage...im stunned by its abilities ( if your superior hardware does not proof me wrong)...
[tested with Sergio's 20200724-1240.bin on a 7870k APU, 1024 hash+ TB]


MultiPV = 5 shows the following. Do various lines transpose; too lazy to look closely. :D

+7.43 [+] [*] 5. Rh7 Nxd1 6. Bxd1 Rb7 7. Bd2 Rd7 8. Rg7+ Kh8 9. Kg1 Ra8 10. Rh7+ Kg8 11. Rh4 Qb8 12. Nh7 g5 13. Nxg5 Qf8 14. Nh3 Rb8 15. Bh6 Ra7 16. Bxf8 Rxf8 17. Kf2 Be8 18. Ng5 Bb5 19. Bg4 Raa8 20. Rh7 Be8 21. Rg7+ Kh8 22. Bh5 Ra7 23. Rh7+ Kg8 24. Be2 Rb7 25. Rg7+ Kh8 26. Bf3 Rb8 27. Bd1 Rb7 28. Kg2 Ra7 29. Bf3 Rb7 30. Rh7+ Kg8 31. Rh6 Bc6 32. Kf2 Rbb8 33. Bd1 Bb5 34. Kg3 Bd7 35. Bg4 Rb6 (depth 43, 0:38:02)

+7.43 [+] [*] 5. Rh3 Nxd1 6. Bxd1 Rfd8 7. Kg1 Ra8 8. Rh4 Qb8 9. Bd2 Rd7 10. Nh7 g5 11. Nxg5 Qf8 12. Nh3 Rb8 13. Bh6 Ra7 14. Bxf8 Rxf8 15. Kf2 Be8 16. Ng5 Bb5 17. Bg4 Raa8 18. Rh7 Be8 19. Rg7+ Kh8 20. Bh5 Ra7 21. Rh7+ Kg8 22. Be2 Rb7 23. Rg7+ Kh8 24. Bf3 Rb8 25. Bd1 Rb7 26. Kg2 Ra7 27. Bf3 Rb7 28. Rh7+ Kg8 29. Rh6 Bc6 30. Kf2 Rbb8 31. Bd1 Bb5 32. Rh7 Be8 33. Bf3 Ra8 34. Rg7+ Kh8 35. Kg2 Rb8 (depth 43, 0:38:02)

+7.43 [+] [*] 5. Bf3 Nxd1 6. Bxd1 Rbd8 7. Kg1 Rd7 8. Rh4 Ra8 9. Bd2 Qb8 10. Nh7 g5 11. Nxg5 Qf8 12. Nh3 Rb8 13. Bh6 Ra7 14. Bxf8 Rxf8 15. Kf2 Be8 16. Ng5 Bb5 17. Bg4 Raa8 18. Rh7 Be8 19. Rg7+ Kh8 20. Bh5 Ra7 21. Rh7+ Kg8 22. Bd1 Rb7 23. Rg7+ Kh8 24. Be2 Rb6 25. Bg4 Rb8 26. Rh7+ Kg8 27. Rh4 Bb5 28. Rh6 Bc6 29. Be2 Rb7 30. Nh7 Re8 31. Bd1 Rbb8 32. Kg3 Rb6 33. Ng5 Rf8 34. Bh5 Rb7 (depth 43, 0:38:02)

+7.43 [+] [*] 5. Rh4 Rb7 6. Rh3 Nxd1 7. Bxd1 Ra8 8. Kg1 Qd8 9. Nh7 g5 10. Kg2 Rd7 11. Bd2 Qb8 12. Kf2 Ra5 13. Nxg5 Qf8 14. Nf3 Bb5 15. Bh6 Ra8 16. Kg2 Bc6 17. Kh1 Rb8 18. Bxf8 Rxf8 19. Ng5 Ra7 20. Rh5 Rb7 21. Bg4 Rb6 22. Rh7 Be8 23. Kg2 Rb8 24. Bh5 Rb7 25. Rh6 Bc6 26. Be2 Rb5 27. Rh7 Be8 28. Rh5 Bc6 29. Rh6 Rb7 30. Rh7 (depth 43, 0:38:02)

+7.22 [+] [*] 5. Rd2 Qc5 6. dxc5 d4+ 7. Kg1 dxc3 8. Rh7 cxd2 9. Rg7+ Kh8 10. Bxd2 Nc2 11. Nxf7+ Rxf7 12. Rxf7 Nxa3 13. Kf2 Bd5 14. c6 Bxc6 15. Bh6 Nb5 16. Bxc4 Nd4 17. Ra7 Be8 18. Bd3 Nf5 19. Be3 a3 20. Rxa3 Bf7 21. Ra6 Rb4 22. Ra8+ Kh7 23. Rf8 Rb7 24. Bg5 Rd7 25. Be4 Ra7 26. Kf3 Rc7 27. Bd3 Rb7 28. Rc8 Rd7 29. Be4 Ra7 30. Rb8 Rd7 31. Kf2 Ra7 32. Rf8 Rd7 33. Rc8 Nd4 34. Ra8 Rc7 35. Rb8 (depth 43, 0:38:02)

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